 [SR3] MinMaxxing Speed |
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 Dec 7 2006, 09:16 AM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437  |
I have a friend who loves nothing more than to have the fastest character in the game. If MoveByWire Delta were possible at char gen, no matter the twitch problems, he'd have it. Here's DocHoliday's starting speed stats/cyber, and why he made the choices.
Obviously, he starts as an elf with both Exceptional and Bonus Quickness Edges, in addition to 8 points Ambidextrous and 6 point Lightning Reflexes for a starting Reaction of 7(10) Cyberware:
Of course, alot of his essence went into being good at something other than speed, since he plays both the Sniper and GunAdept of the group. His goal was to get everything -except- the Reaction Enhancers due to their expense/essence levels. But to make sure he leaves 1.44 of the 9.00 points to get Alpha Reaction Enhancers at a later time via his level-2 Buddies still in DocWagon (He has the skillsets and background of an HTR team-member). Of course, the biggest debate generated by this discussion previously was the Cultured Bioware and Beta Grade cyberware (all with availabilities less than or equal to 8, and availability is our only rule/limitation at char-gen) :P |
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Dec 7 2006, 09:26 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
I believe the boosted reflexes can't be used with the synaptic accelarater. I remember back in the day when MBW and SA 1 stacked, but in SR3 I believe they state niether stack with anything. So prolly be better off keeping the SA and replacing the Boosted with a reaction enhancer.
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Dec 7 2006, 09:36 AM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Boosted Reflexes can be used with Synaptic Accelerators. Only Wired Reflexes can not be used with them.
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Dec 7 2006, 09:41 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Worcester, MA Member No.: 5,621 |
The Boosted actually works with Synaptic in SR3. It's implicit in Man & Machine and explicit in the official SR FAQ (ignoring, for the moment, the implications of other parts of that FAQ).
Unfortunately for your friend, if you go by the official rules (M&M, p45), you cannot have betaware as a starting character. I also remember something about cultured bioware being considered the same as betaware for finding the implants and a compatible clinic to do the implantation, but I can't find the exact reference right now. |
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Dec 7 2006, 09:44 AM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
That reference is in the FAQ, not the books (and we don't treat the FAQ as Canon)
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Dec 7 2006, 12:10 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
IIRC, they errataed it in. Or maybe I'm just thinking of the called shot rules. Either way, I seem to remember some of the stupid from the FAQ leaking into canon.
~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 01:43 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
This is what made Canon: It is recommended that cultured bioware not be available to starting characters.
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Dec 7 2006, 01:51 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Though it is recomended that you have no cultured at Character Generation, personaly i go with no upgrading to cultured a generation.
So Cerebral Boosters and Synaptic Accelerators are ok, but not Cultured Muscle Toners. I dp it this way because some of the legal Cultured bioware should IMO be avilable to the mass's, well anyone with the money. |
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Dec 7 2006, 02:57 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Sweden Member No.: 10,207 |
I may have missed something, but what good will he have from the start with exceptional quickness? Sure, he will be faster once in the game and he has put some more karma in quickness |
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Dec 7 2006, 03:12 PM
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#10
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Depending on your interpretation of some rules, some people allow you to spend an attribute point to fill in the extra space left by Exceptional Quickness.
A major motivation to rule this way is that not doing it leaves Otaku completely screwed. ~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 03:16 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Sorry Wolfis, I should have seperated it into 2 lines.
Exceptional Quickness (Exceptional Attribute Edge) Bonus Quickness (Bonus Attribute Edge) |
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Dec 7 2006, 03:27 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Sweden Member No.: 10,207 |
Well, how many ways can you interpret "During character creation, Physical and Mental Attributes have maximum ratings based on rating 6" And since Bonus Attribute Point clearly states that the point may be used to raise it over 6, and nothing at all in Exceptional says that you may raise it now. |
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Dec 7 2006, 03:38 PM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Does it need to Swe? Are you suggesting that, even though you can take a Bonus Attrbute point to exceed the Racial Modified Limit, by taking Exceptional Attribute you suddenly can't?
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Dec 7 2006, 03:52 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
What you 've got to bare in mind is when SR3 was written, the racial max (before race mods) was six. When Exceptional Attribute cam out later in SRComp (along with the mirrors of that edge) alot of people understood it that the SR3 rules weren't updated to accomodate the Edges/ Flaws. Thus it is now treated as. "You can now assign upto 6 points or racial maximum (which ever is higher)" |
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Dec 7 2006, 03:52 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You left out part of the quote: "plus or minus racial modifiers". It then goes on to use that same number to calculate the Attribute Maximum. Since Exceptional Attribute explicitly modifies the latter, it can be inferred to also modify the former. No, the part that isn't subject to interpretation is later, under Choosing Attributes (p55, SR3), when it says "No attribute can be given more than 6 points or less than 1". Again, though, in order to reconcile this with the Otaku character generation rules, we either have to screw them by withholding the ability to use their heightened RML at chargen (as they, uniquely, have a directly modified RML rather than a modification to the base stat), or we have to discard the quote above as ill-considered and superseded. ~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:01 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Sorry, but I still don't get how the Bonus Attribute Edge stacked on an Exceptional Attribute Edge has been addressed as questionable. o.O The Bonus Attribute Edge isn't giving you a bonus attribute point to spend. So the "6 max" doesn't apply. He didn't spend 7 points (14BP) on Quickness. He spent 6 points (12 BP) on Quickness, then raised it with the Bonus Attribute Edge, then raised his Modified Limit at the same time.
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Dec 7 2006, 04:03 PM
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#17
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Had a character in my last campaign who worked out a 19 Reaction w/3d6 Initiative
Elf - Maxxed Quickness 7 Reaction Enhancers 6 Wired Reflexes (alpha) 2 (+4) Enhanced Articulation (+1) Muscle Toner 2 (+1) The only thing that was able to beat him on Reaction tests was a pair of Cyberzombies the team ran into. |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:05 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh, no, that stacking isn't questionable at all. It's just a waste, IMO. Because of the karma costs of improving the stats afterwards, I'd say either put the Exceptional Attribute on Quickness and the Bonus Attribute on Intelligence to max INT and give QCK an easy improvement path, or do it the other way around depending on how you interpret the interaction between stat improvement costs and bioware-improved attributes.
That and spending the seventh attribute point if you think, as I do, that that is implied valid by the Otaku rules. ~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:09 PM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Sweden Member No.: 10,207 |
I thought that the rules in Matrix(p136) supersedes SR3(p55) for Otakus and lets them start with more then 6 in Mental Attributes? |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:12 PM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
They raise the RML, but they don't explicitly lift or contradict the "one to six points" rule. This implies to me that the rule is already considered void.
~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:23 PM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I think Karma Cost on high attributes is too high to consider doing. Last time he played this character, he spent all his karma to get his skills under Quickness up to his Quickness. I think he has his Specializations under Pistols and Rifles to 12 and his entire Stealth skill to 12 before we finally moved on. Not possible if he'd had to spend that much on raising attributes that high first.
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Dec 7 2006, 04:32 PM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It'd be just 14 karma, and you'd have an extra attribute point to show for it. YMMV, of course.
~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:35 PM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Ah, you're talking about delaying implementing BioWare into the character then. Implementing the SuperThyroad and Muscle Toners in-game, and spend weeks or months out of game to heal. I was talking about that 12th point of Quickness, not the 7th.
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Dec 7 2006, 04:47 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh, right, I missed that he had Toners as well. Not sure why, given the topic. Ne'er mind me.
~J |
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Dec 7 2006, 05:03 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I've done similar builds for speed sammies, although I usually add Reaction Enhancer: 6 to it - dunno if he could afford it after the other stuff, though.
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