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Sphynx
I have a friend who loves nothing more than to have the fastest character in the game. If MoveByWire Delta were possible at char gen, no matter the twitch problems, he'd have it. Here's DocHoliday's starting speed stats/cyber, and why he made the choices.

Obviously, he starts as an elf with both Exceptional and Bonus Quickness Edges, in addition to 8 points Ambidextrous and 6 point Lightning Reflexes for a starting Reaction of 7(10)

Cyberware:
  • Boosted Reflexes 3 (Beta)
  • CyberEyes (Alpha)
  • - Cyber Replacement
  • - Flare Comp
  • - Image Link
  • - LowLight
  • - Mag x3, Electronic
  • - Thermographic
  • Datajack (Beta)
  • Smartlink II (Alpha)
  • - Processor
  • - Limited Simsense
  • - Induction Pad (L)
  • - Induction Pad
  • - RangeFinder
Bioware:
  • Cerebral Booster
  • Enhanced Articulation
  • Muscle Toner - 3
  • SuperThyroid Gland
  • Synaptic Accelerator II
Initiative: 14+5D6 (Additional +3 reaction in surprise situations)

Of course, alot of his essence went into being good at something other than speed, since he plays both the Sniper and GunAdept of the group. His goal was to get everything -except- the Reaction Enhancers due to their expense/essence levels. But to make sure he leaves 1.44 of the 9.00 points to get Alpha Reaction Enhancers at a later time via his level-2 Buddies still in DocWagon (He has the skillsets and background of an HTR team-member).

Of course, the biggest debate generated by this discussion previously was the Cultured Bioware and Beta Grade cyberware (all with availabilities less than or equal to 8, and availability is our only rule/limitation at char-gen) nyahnyah.gif
Angelone
I believe the boosted reflexes can't be used with the synaptic accelarater. I remember back in the day when MBW and SA 1 stacked, but in SR3 I believe they state niether stack with anything. So prolly be better off keeping the SA and replacing the Boosted with a reaction enhancer.
Sphynx
Boosted Reflexes can be used with Synaptic Accelerators. Only Wired Reflexes can not be used with them.
cykotek
The Boosted actually works with Synaptic in SR3. It's implicit in Man & Machine and explicit in the official SR FAQ (ignoring, for the moment, the implications of other parts of that FAQ).

Unfortunately for your friend, if you go by the official rules (M&M, p45), you cannot have betaware as a starting character. I also remember something about cultured bioware being considered the same as betaware for finding the implants and a compatible clinic to do the implantation, but I can't find the exact reference right now.
Sphynx
That reference is in the FAQ, not the books (and we don't treat the FAQ as Canon)
Kagetenshi
IIRC, they errataed it in. Or maybe I'm just thinking of the called shot rules. Either way, I seem to remember some of the stupid from the FAQ leaking into canon.

~J
Sphynx
This is what made Canon: It is recommended that cultured bioware not be available to starting characters.
Shockwave_IIc
Though it is recomended that you have no cultured at Character Generation, personaly i go with no upgrading to cultured a generation.

So Cerebral Boosters and Synaptic Accelerators are ok, but not Cultured Muscle Toners.

I dp it this way because some of the legal Cultured bioware should IMO be avilable to the mass's, well anyone with the money.
swe_wolfis
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Obviously, he starts as an elf with both Exceptional and Bonus Quickness Edges

I may have missed something, but what good will he have from the start with exceptional quickness?

Sure, he will be faster once in the game and he has put some more karma in quickness
Kagetenshi
Depending on your interpretation of some rules, some people allow you to spend an attribute point to fill in the extra space left by Exceptional Quickness.

A major motivation to rule this way is that not doing it leaves Otaku completely screwed.

~J
Sphynx
Sorry Wolfis, I should have seperated it into 2 lines.
Exceptional Quickness (Exceptional Attribute Edge)
Bonus Quickness (Bonus Attribute Edge)
swe_wolfis
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Depending on your interpretation of some rules, some people allow you to spend an attribute point to fill in the extra space left by Exceptional Quickness.

A major motivation to rule this way is that not doing it leaves Otaku completely screwed.

~J

Well, how many ways can you interpret

"During character creation, Physical and Mental Attributes have maximum ratings based on rating 6"

And since Bonus Attribute Point clearly states that the point may be used to raise it over 6, and nothing at all in Exceptional says that you may raise it now.
Sphynx
Does it need to Swe? Are you suggesting that, even though you can take a Bonus Attrbute point to exceed the Racial Modified Limit, by taking Exceptional Attribute you suddenly can't?
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (swe_wolfis)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 7 2006, 10:12 AM)
Depending on your interpretation of some rules, some people allow you to spend an attribute point to fill in the extra space left by Exceptional Quickness.

A major motivation to rule this way is that not doing it leaves Otaku completely screwed.

~J

Well, how many ways can you interpret

"During character creation, Physical and Mental Attributes have maximum ratings based on rating 6"

And since Bonus Attribute Point clearly states that the point may be used to raise it over 6, and nothing at all in Exceptional says that you may raise it now.

What you 've got to bare in mind is when SR3 was written, the racial max (before race mods) was six. When Exceptional Attribute cam out later in SRComp (along with the mirrors of that edge) alot of people understood it that the SR3 rules weren't updated to accomodate the Edges/ Flaws.

Thus it is now treated as.

"You can now assign upto 6 points or racial maximum (which ever is higher)"
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (swe_wolfis)
Well, how many ways can you interpret

"During character creation, Physical and Mental Attributes have maximum ratings based on rating 6"

You left out part of the quote: "plus or minus racial modifiers". It then goes on to use that same number to calculate the Attribute Maximum. Since Exceptional Attribute explicitly modifies the latter, it can be inferred to also modify the former.

No, the part that isn't subject to interpretation is later, under Choosing Attributes (p55, SR3), when it says "No attribute can be given more than 6 points or less than 1". Again, though, in order to reconcile this with the Otaku character generation rules, we either have to screw them by withholding the ability to use their heightened RML at chargen (as they, uniquely, have a directly modified RML rather than a modification to the base stat), or we have to discard the quote above as ill-considered and superseded.

~J
Sphynx
Sorry, but I still don't get how the Bonus Attribute Edge stacked on an Exceptional Attribute Edge has been addressed as questionable. o.O The Bonus Attribute Edge isn't giving you a bonus attribute point to spend. So the "6 max" doesn't apply. He didn't spend 7 points (14BP) on Quickness. He spent 6 points (12 BP) on Quickness, then raised it with the Bonus Attribute Edge, then raised his Modified Limit at the same time.
Kyoto Kid
...Had a character in my last campaign who worked out a 19 Reaction w/3d6 Initiative

Elf - Maxxed Quickness 7
Reaction Enhancers 6
Wired Reflexes (alpha) 2 (+4)
Enhanced Articulation (+1)
Muscle Toner 2 (+1)

The only thing that was able to beat him on Reaction tests was a pair of Cyberzombies the team ran into.
Kagetenshi
Oh, no, that stacking isn't questionable at all. It's just a waste, IMO. Because of the karma costs of improving the stats afterwards, I'd say either put the Exceptional Attribute on Quickness and the Bonus Attribute on Intelligence to max INT and give QCK an easy improvement path, or do it the other way around depending on how you interpret the interaction between stat improvement costs and bioware-improved attributes.

That and spending the seventh attribute point if you think, as I do, that that is implied valid by the Otaku rules.

~J
swe_wolfis
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

under Choosing Attributes (p55, SR3), when it says "No attribute can be given more than 6 points or less than 1". Again, though, in order to reconcile this with the Otaku character generation rules, we either have to screw them by withholding the ability to use their heightened RML at chargen (as they, uniquely, have a directly modified RML rather than a modification to the base stat), or we have to discard the quote above as ill-considered and superseded.

~J

I thought that the rules in Matrix(p136) supersedes SR3(p55) for Otakus and lets them start with more then 6 in Mental Attributes?
Kagetenshi
They raise the RML, but they don't explicitly lift or contradict the "one to six points" rule. This implies to me that the rule is already considered void.

~J
Sphynx
I think Karma Cost on high attributes is too high to consider doing. Last time he played this character, he spent all his karma to get his skills under Quickness up to his Quickness. I think he has his Specializations under Pistols and Rifles to 12 and his entire Stealth skill to 12 before we finally moved on. Not possible if he'd had to spend that much on raising attributes that high first.
Kagetenshi
It'd be just 14 karma, and you'd have an extra attribute point to show for it. YMMV, of course.

~J
Sphynx
Ah, you're talking about delaying implementing BioWare into the character then. Implementing the SuperThyroad and Muscle Toners in-game, and spend weeks or months out of game to heal. I was talking about that 12th point of Quickness, not the 7th.
Kagetenshi
Oh, right, I missed that he had Toners as well. Not sure why, given the topic. Ne'er mind me.

~J
Glyph
I've done similar builds for speed sammies, although I usually add Reaction Enhancer: 6 to it - dunno if he could afford it after the other stuff, though.
mfb
that's one of the... quirks of the SR system, the usefulness of reaction and initiative dice compared to any other improvement you can get. especially since many methods of raising your reaction (those that improve your qui or int, basically) also improve your combat pool. a guy with maxed initiative and pistols 4 is way, way more dangerous than a guy with 1 init die and 8 pistols. about a third more dangerous, matter of fact.
Kagetenshi
Depends, as always, on the situation. That said, why would you call that a quirk-or-worse?

~J
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