Image Magnification, Looking for rules and opinions... Options

[Wonazer]

Image Modification systems lower the TN of a longer distance shot by their rating in categories. SR3, pg 111

So, if I have a Rating 2 scope my Medium and Long ranges shots ar at a base target number of 4. What about Extreme? The target at extreme range would still benefit from a Rating 1 or 2 scope.

Rating 1

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 5
Extreme - TN 6

Rating 2

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 5

Rating 3

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 4

The reason I am asking you all here is that someone told me that is should look like this:

Rating 1

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 6
Extreme - TN 9

Rating 2

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 9

Rating 3

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 4

Which is correct? Is there another, better way? I am not so interested in canon as I am balance and logic.

[Req]

I believe canon is: a rating 2 scope reduces the range band by 2 categories:

Short stays short,
Med becomes short,
Long becomes short,
Extreme becomes Medium.

But I could be way off-base.

[TinkerGnome]

Nindaru, you're right on what you've got. The only thing better overall than vision mag 3 is SL-2 with a range finder or vision mag 3 with a high power laser sight.

[Wonazer]

[Siege]

I'll third Req and Tinker.

-Siege

[TinkerGnome]

[mfb]

you're correct, nindaru; see page 110 in SR3. the wording here is extremely difficult to misinterpret.

uh, rangefinder is a smartlink subcomponent. i would think that, as such, you couldn't combine its benefits with magnification.

[Req]

So it's been so long I don't even remember if it's a house rule or Canon™, but - we've always played such that magnification (of any kind, scope or VisionMag) didn't stack with smartlink hardware. I got so tired of TN 2/2/2/2 gunbunnies...

Thoughts?

[Wonazer]

Ok, I am still a little lost. What's with the TN in () for long range on your Smartlink lists.

I didn't realize you could combine with a laser sight. Duh!

I do not have access to CC so I am not aware of their record sheets.

[TinkerGnome]

[Req]

[TheOneRonin]

Has anyone here ever looked at a target through a scope IRL? Sure, it makes that distant target nice and big...but what happens when that target starts to move and you have to track it? If you are zoomed up nice and close, the target will easily slip out of your field of vision. If you've got a wide enough field of view to make it easy to keep your moving target bracketed, then the target's profile will be much smaller and much harder to hit.

Raygun has a good houserule for scopes, and the downside of using them. Practically speaking, they are really only useful if you are trying to hit a stationary or very slowly moving/unaware target. In a fire fight with goons 100+ meters away, a scope is the wrong thing to try and use. Unless, of course, YOU are 300 meters away from the firefight, on the roof of a building providing sniper support.

And don't even get me started on cybernetic vision mag and how much trouble THAT would be. Try strapping some binoculars to your head and walking around, see how many things you trip over/knock down.

[Siege]

Well, if you're using cyber-mag, odds are you've learned the trick of re-zooming before you look away.

Otherwise the migraines would be murder.

-Siege

[Req]

That or, of course, something like expanding the hotspot at the center of your vision while leaving the periphery at the original setting. I assume giving someone total tunnel-vision wouldn't be a goal of high-end 'ware designers.

[TheOneRonin]

Of course you would HAVE to learn that trick just to get by. But what about when you are in a firefight and have to keep moving? Not to mention you lose ALL of your peripheral vision when you are zoomed in. That makes it real easy to get capped by the bad guy who is way off to your left.

Even if you would move, stop, zoom in, shoot, zoom out, move, stop, zoom in, etc., it would still cost you some time...mabye once simple action per combat round or something. And that's something that I think would take a LOT of practice to get running smoothly. And what happens if you stop and zoom in and your Smarlink Crosshairs aren't anywhere in your field of vision because your weapon is pointed just a bit off target. And can you imagine how much the crosshairs would be jumping around if you weren't using a bipod or something similar to rest your weapon on?

[Wonazer]

[Lilt]

If it's electronic vision magnification then it would be an effectiely instant zoom-out. I'd let optical magnification do the same as you could quickly change between tiny-lens sets in the eye.

[Ed_209a]

[TheOneRonin]

I'm sure the zomming in and out happens at the speed of thought, but think about the sudden shift in perspective that happens. That alone as to be a bit disorientating if you are zooming in and out rapidly.

And Ed is dead on about having a point of impact reference. You NEED a smartgun link (or at least a laser sight) to have any clue where your weapon is pointed at when zoomed in cybernetically.

[Aramus]

And if I got Elect. IMG 3 + Smartlink-2 + Laser Sight ?

Does the Smartlink-2 get rid of the laser sight bonus ? Or you get -3 TN ?

[Siege]

You cannot mix any kind of Magnification and a Smartlink.

You cannot stack a smartlink and a laser sight.

You can stack a Magnification and a laser sight.

-Siege

Edit: Most gun bunnies use smartlinks at "Short" range for a -2 bonus and then switch over to a vision mag & laser sight at longer ranges.

[TheOneRonin]

I would say you can use a smartlink with image magnification, but you don't get the associated smartlink bonuses. After all, when zoomed in, you still need a way to know where your weapon is pointed, right?

And although this isn't cannon, I wouldn't give a player character the -1 laser sight bonus when using a scoped weapon. The crosshairs already show you where the projectile is going to hit...the red dot is a little redundant.

Then again, if you are playing Shadowrun like it's a video game, by all means use the canon rules. They work nicely if you have an exceptional suspension of disbelief.

[Siege]

As per canon rules, a smartlink doesn't function with vision mag.

As Ronin pointed out, you wouldn't get the -2 bonus but other smartlink functions should work like: changing fire selection, displaying ammo count and so on.

-Siege

[Dogsoup]

Too good a ripe horse carcass, to let go off...

I've started toying with the idea of letting magnifications and SL be compatible;
But instead of "moving the TN", ImMag and scopes reduce the "range-modifier" with their ratings.

This makes Extreme range a bit more difficult for non-SL:ed individuals, and TNs start to hover in the ugly 6-7 area so.... I don't know. It would be interesting hearing other people's opinions. Maybe this is the shittiest thing since the greenhouse effect.

I guess the two main objections are that the natural scope get's shafted at Extreme and it doens't make any difference between R2 and R3. My take is that TN 8 and 6 only differ on the roll of 1 in the reroll. The R2/R3 issue is harder, but could be explained by R3 being an "expert's system" requiring additional equipment. I know, it's weak...

I made a little table to easier overlook the results, I believe it's accurate:

---- Canon ----

/ Short / Med. / Long / Extreme

S.L. / 2 / 3 / 4 / 7
Natural
IM1 / 4 / 4 / 5 / 6
IM2 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 5
IM3 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 4
LasSight
IM1 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 5
IM2 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 4
IM3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3

---- My Ramblings ----

Natural
IM1 / 4 / 4 / 5 / 8
IM2 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 7
IM3 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 6
LasSight
IM1 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 7
IM2 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 6
IM3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 5
Smartlinked
IM1 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 6
IM2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 5
IM3 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 4

P.S.
Im thinking of adding in a rangeXrange/100 cost to the SL smartgun component, to balance the SL somewhat.

[BitBasher]

keep in mind that's not entirely right because the laser sight doesn't go as far as some gund long and extreme ranges, especially in daylight.