Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Image Magnification
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Wonazer
Image Modification systems lower the TN of a longer distance shot by their rating in categories. SR3, pg 111

So, if I have a Rating 2 scope my Medium and Long ranges shots ar at a base target number of 4. What about Extreme? The target at extreme range would still benefit from a Rating 1 or 2 scope.

Rating 1

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 5
Extreme - TN 6

Rating 2

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 5

Rating 3

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 4

The reason I am asking you all here is that someone told me that is should look like this:

Rating 1

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 6
Extreme - TN 9

Rating 2

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 9

Rating 3

Short - TN 4
Medium - TN 4
Long - TN 4
Extreme - TN 4

Which is correct? Is there another, better way? I am not so interested in canon as I am balance and logic.
Req
I believe canon is: a rating 2 scope reduces the range band by 2 categories:

Short stays short,
Med becomes short,
Long becomes short,
Extreme becomes Medium.

But I could be way off-base.
TinkerGnome
Nindaru, you're right on what you've got. The only thing better overall than vision mag 3 is SL-2 with a range finder or vision mag 3 with a high power laser sight.
Wonazer
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
Nindaru, you're right on what you've got. The only thing better overall than vision mag 3 is SL-2 with a range finder or vision mag 3 with a high power laser sight.

Huh? English (and book references) please...
Siege
I'll third Req and Tinker.

-Siege
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Nindaru @ Oct 27 2003, 05:12 PM)
Huh?  English (and book references) please...

Vision Mag 3
Short TN 4
Medium TN 4
Long TN 4
Extreme TN 4

Vision Mag 3 w/laser sight*
Short TN 3
Medium TN 3
Long TN 3
Extreme TN 3
* Past laser sight range, these revert to normal vision mag numbers. Laser sights have a day/night range of 50m/150m and the extended range laser sights are 150m/500m

Smartlink-2
Short TN 2
Medium TN 3
Long TN 4 (6)
Extreme TN 7

Smartlink-2 with rangefinder
Short TN 2
Medium TN 3
Long TN 3 (5)
Extreme TN 5

For all of these, check the record sheet at the back of CC (after page 126). My last sammie had an Ares Alpha CG with rangefinder and Vision mag 3, so his combined target numbers are:

Short TN 2
Medium TN 3
Long TN 3 (4)
Extreme TN 4

[edit] For that particular weapon, I find the SL-2 is a better system, overall, since you're getting TN 2 for that first 50 meters of range. With his dart pistol, he uses a regular laser sight instead, to get those nice even TN 3s. Smartlink isn't worth it on such a gun because the short range is only 5 meters. If you're shooting someone at 5m or less, you generally don't need much in the way of help to hit them (seeing as how they're likely not in cover). [/edit]
mfb
you're correct, nindaru; see page 110 in SR3. the wording here is extremely difficult to misinterpret.

uh, rangefinder is a smartlink subcomponent. i would think that, as such, you couldn't combine its benefits with magnification.
Req
So it's been so long I don't even remember if it's a house rule or Canon™, but - we've always played such that magnification (of any kind, scope or VisionMag) didn't stack with smartlink hardware. I got so tired of TN 2/2/2/2 gunbunnies...

Thoughts?
Wonazer
Ok, I am still a little lost. What's with the TN in () for long range on your Smartlink lists.

I didn't realize you could combine with a laser sight. Duh!

I do not have access to CC so I am not aware of their record sheets.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Req @ Oct 27 2003, 05:25 PM)
So it's been so long I don't even remember if it's a house rule or Canon™, but - we've always played such that magnification (of any kind, scope or VisionMag) didn't stack with smartlink hardware.  I got so tired of TN 2/2/2/2 gunbunnies...

They don't stack. However, you can choose the system that gives you the best shot in each situation. At longer ranges, sammies know to switch to the vision magnification instead of the smartlink. The parenthesis are for grenade launchers, mortars, and missiles.

[edit] Took me a minute to dig up the exact rule on the () numbers. SR3 p 119 has the TN for grenade launchers and you'll notice that long range is an 8 instead of a 6 (as for normal fire). Thus, most of the time the TN to hit with a GL or thrown grenade is two higher than with anything else at long range. [/edit]
Req
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
They don't stack. However, you can choose the system that gives you the best shot in each situation. At longer ranges, sammies know to switch to the vision magnification instead of the smartlink. The parenthesis are for grenade launchers, mortars, and missiles.

OK, good. Glad I was following the rules all these years. smile.gif
TheOneRonin
Has anyone here ever looked at a target through a scope IRL? Sure, it makes that distant target nice and big...but what happens when that target starts to move and you have to track it? If you are zoomed up nice and close, the target will easily slip out of your field of vision. If you've got a wide enough field of view to make it easy to keep your moving target bracketed, then the target's profile will be much smaller and much harder to hit.

Raygun has a good houserule for scopes, and the downside of using them. Practically speaking, they are really only useful if you are trying to hit a stationary or very slowly moving/unaware target. In a fire fight with goons 100+ meters away, a scope is the wrong thing to try and use. Unless, of course, YOU are 300 meters away from the firefight, on the roof of a building providing sniper support.

And don't even get me started on cybernetic vision mag and how much trouble THAT would be. Try strapping some binoculars to your head and walking around, see how many things you trip over/knock down.
Siege
Well, if you're using cyber-mag, odds are you've learned the trick of re-zooming before you look away.

Otherwise the migraines would be murder.

-Siege
Req
That or, of course, something like expanding the hotspot at the center of your vision while leaving the periphery at the original setting. I assume giving someone total tunnel-vision wouldn't be a goal of high-end 'ware designers.

TheOneRonin
Of course you would HAVE to learn that trick just to get by. But what about when you are in a firefight and have to keep moving? Not to mention you lose ALL of your peripheral vision when you are zoomed in. That makes it real easy to get capped by the bad guy who is way off to your left.

Even if you would move, stop, zoom in, shoot, zoom out, move, stop, zoom in, etc., it would still cost you some time...mabye once simple action per combat round or something. And that's something that I think would take a LOT of practice to get running smoothly. And what happens if you stop and zoom in and your Smarlink Crosshairs aren't anywhere in your field of vision because your weapon is pointed just a bit off target. And can you imagine how much the crosshairs would be jumping around if you weren't using a bipod or something similar to rest your weapon on?
Wonazer
QUOTE
And what happens if you stop and zoom in and your Smarlink Crosshairs aren't anywhere in your field of vision because your weapon is pointed just a bit off target


Ronin, I thought the Smartlink didn't work with magnification...?

QUOTE
Even if you would move, stop, zoom in, shoot, zoom out, move, stop, zoom in, etc., it would still cost you some time


Who is to say that the zoom is not at the speed of thought (i.e. Decking)? I have never heard of deckers getting nasuea from the blur of moving around in the Matrix. Same goes for Astral Projection.


QUOTE
And what happens if you stop and zoom in and your Smarlink Crosshairs aren't anywhere in your field of vision because your weapon is pointed just a bit off target


I could only see that applying if you are VERY zoomed in. I only want to zoom in enough to get the target number down to Short range level which is STILL a minimum of 5 meters even with a light pistol. And if I can flawlessly walk my fire with a Smartlink, I can move my crosshairs while I zoom in. But, it is irrelevant due to incompatability.
Lilt
If it's electronic vision magnification then it would be an effectiely instant zoom-out. I'd let optical magnification do the same as you could quickly change between tiny-lens sets in the eye.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Nindaru)
QUOTE
And what happens if you stop and zoom in and your Smarlink Crosshairs aren't anywhere in your field of vision because your weapon is pointed just a bit off target


Ronin, I thought the Smartlink didn't work with magnification...?


The bonuses don't stack, but the cyber eye Image mag is it's most useful with a smartgun link.

The SG link gives you an reticle for point of impact, just like a reflex sight might. The big difference is you don't have to have the gun in line with your eye.

A rifle scope gives you a point of impact _and_ a magnified field of view.

Cyber image mag only gives the magnified field of view. You still need the POI somehow.

I am confident that you would not be able to use the iron sights at 8x magnification. This leaves a laser sight or a smartgun link.

The laser dot is detectable by the target, and might be hard to find at long range. This leaves a SG reticle.
TheOneRonin
I'm sure the zomming in and out happens at the speed of thought, but think about the sudden shift in perspective that happens. That alone as to be a bit disorientating if you are zooming in and out rapidly.

And Ed is dead on about having a point of impact reference. You NEED a smartgun link (or at least a laser sight) to have any clue where your weapon is pointed at when zoomed in cybernetically.

Aramus
And if I got Elect. IMG 3 + Smartlink-2 + Laser Sight ?

Does the Smartlink-2 get rid of the laser sight bonus ? Or you get -3 TN ?
Siege
You cannot mix any kind of Magnification and a Smartlink.

You cannot stack a smartlink and a laser sight.

You can stack a Magnification and a laser sight.

-Siege

Edit: Most gun bunnies use smartlinks at "Short" range for a -2 bonus and then switch over to a vision mag & laser sight at longer ranges.
TheOneRonin
I would say you can use a smartlink with image magnification, but you don't get the associated smartlink bonuses. After all, when zoomed in, you still need a way to know where your weapon is pointed, right?

And although this isn't cannon, I wouldn't give a player character the -1 laser sight bonus when using a scoped weapon. The crosshairs already show you where the projectile is going to hit...the red dot is a little redundant.

Then again, if you are playing Shadowrun like it's a video game, by all means use the canon rules. They work nicely if you have an exceptional suspension of disbelief.
Siege
As per canon rules, a smartlink doesn't function with vision mag.

As Ronin pointed out, you wouldn't get the -2 bonus but other smartlink functions should work like: changing fire selection, displaying ammo count and so on.

-Siege
Dogsoup
Too good a ripe horse carcass, to let go off...

I've started toying with the idea of letting magnifications and SL be compatible;
But instead of "moving the TN", ImMag and scopes reduce the "range-modifier" with their ratings.

This makes Extreme range a bit more difficult for non-SL:ed individuals, and TNs start to hover in the ugly 6-7 area so.... I don't know. It would be interesting hearing other people's opinions. Maybe this is the shittiest thing since the greenhouse effect.

I guess the two main objections are that the natural scope get's shafted at Extreme and it doens't make any difference between R2 and R3. My take is that TN 8 and 6 only differ on the roll of 1 in the reroll. The R2/R3 issue is harder, but could be explained by R3 being an "expert's system" requiring additional equipment. I know, it's weak...

I made a little table to easier overlook the results, I believe it's accurate:

---- Canon ----

/ Short / Med. / Long / Extreme

S.L. / 2 / 3 / 4 / 7
Natural
IM1 / 4 / 4 / 5 / 6
IM2 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 5
IM3 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 4
LasSight
IM1 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 5
IM2 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 4
IM3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3

---- My Ramblings ----

Natural
IM1 / 4 / 4 / 5 / 8
IM2 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 7
IM3 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 6
LasSight
IM1 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 7
IM2 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 6
IM3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 5
Smartlinked
IM1 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 6
IM2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 5
IM3 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 4

P.S.
Im thinking of adding in a rangeXrange/100 cost to the SL smartgun component, to balance the SL somewhat.
BitBasher
keep in mind that's not entirely right because the laser sight doesn't go as far as some gund long and extreme ranges, especially in daylight.
TheOneRonin
Here's a question for you. Stepping outside of Shadowrun Canon and getting into a little common sense, would a laser sight give you any targeting assistance when using a scope? The scope already has crosshairs which give you a pretty good idea of the rounds impact point. Lasers pretty much do the same thing. In SR, I wouldn't have them stack.

Rules wise, you can have them stack. But to me, it's just silly from a common sense point of view.
BitBasher
I agree, and in my game I house rule that exact thing. Laser Sights stacking with a scope is dumbfoundingly retarded.
TheScamp
For an actual mounted scope, it shouldn't give a bonus. However for cyber vision mag it should be pretty much required, as looking down the iron sights of a pistol would be extremely difficult with such magnification.
Kagetenshi
I don't let them stack, myself. It is, as you pointed out, just silly.

~J
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (TheScamp)
For an actual mounted scope, it shouldn't give a bonus. However for cyber vision mag it should be pretty much required, as looking down the iron sights of a pistol would be extremely difficult with such magnification.

Exactly. Here's where a smartlink would work even better. Cyber vision mag is really no different than looking through binoculars. The binos don't give you any point of reference for aiming a weapon. But the laser or smartlink does.
Austere Emancipator
Agreed completely. Which is why I don't give scope bonuses for VisionMag except with Smartlink. Not even with a Laser Sight, the reasoning being that it would be really hard just finding the damn spot, and it would be a really bad method of aiming a weapon accurately at long distances, which is what VisMag is for.

My normal TNs by Range are:
4/5/7/10
With a Scope that's
4/4/6/9 (1), 4/4/5/8 (2), 4/4/5/6 (3)
With a Smartlink
2/3/5/8
With Smartlink + VisMag 3 you can choose between 2/3/5/8 or 4/4/5/6 (ie. you'd use just the bare Smartlink up to Long range, then switch to VisMag 3 for Extreme -- I don't allow the bonuses to stack).
With Smartlink + Rangefinder
2/3/4/6

I think I'm going to start using a house rule that neither Scopes or VisMag (with Smartlink) give any bonuses unless you Take Aim, haven't used one so far.
Dr Vital
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Agreed completely. Which is why I don't give scope bonuses for VisionMag except with Smartlink. Not even with a Laser Sight, the reasoning being that it would be really hard just finding the damn spot, and it would be a really bad method of aiming a weapon accurately at long distances, which is what VisMag is for.

It has the unfortunate side effect of screwing over Adepts who take vision mag as power.

I'd argue that the magical kung-fu dudes can "find the spot" and get the bonus to TN.
Austere Emancipator
I don't think it screws over Adepts, since they might just as well get Scopes for their weapons. I do not consider the Scope bonuses the primary advantage of Vision Magnification.

I can see how it might be a slight problem, because by canon VisMag/Scopes are just as, if not more, useful for Pistols/SMGs/Shotguns as for Assault Rifles/Rifles, but I wouldn't call it screwing over. But if you require a Take Aim action for Scopes and VisMag modifiers to take effect, it becomes a non-issue (for the times when you've got time to Take Aim, you might as well get the scope).
Siege
Actually, I'd argue that an adept aiming a gun at a target would still use a laser sight coupled with vision mag if only to ensure that while zoomed on the target, the blinking laser dot would still tell the shooter if the gun is pointed in the right direction.

It's not any different than trying to find the laser sight on a target at a distance without any kind of vision enhancement. It is a relatively small blinking dot after all...

-Siege
Dr Vital
Okay, maybe "screw over" is a little intense.

Here's a more specific example:
I can't put a scope on my Bow, but I can add a laser site. It already has fairly short ranges, and takes a complex action to fire. With this rule change it's much less useful, to the point where I wouldn't make sense for me to take it, since there is effectively no way to reduce its basic TN value beyond short range.

But it's the only ranged weapon where my strength comes into play on damage, and that's a problem...
Siege
Disclaimer: I'm pleasently tipsy

Just because a laser sight can reach say 10 or 20 or 30 meters, does it mean you'll be able to see the little blinking dot?

What's the effective range at which a laser sight is actually useful? As I have never used one, I can only speculate here.

-Siege
Kagetenshi
I think the fact that laser sights already have two different ranges for day/night means they cover visibility rather than just "actual" range.

~J
TinkerGnome
I agree that houseruling scopes to require a take aim action is fair. I disagree with doing the same thing for vision magnification. Unless you are zooming in and then looking for a target, I've always assumed that electronic and adept vision magnification is very accurate and instinctive to use. In the electronic case, it appears as a targeting recticle that is expanded against the background of the regular view (think the old Silent Scope games). In the adept case, it just works because it's magic. Optical magnification may not work so well this way, but it's possible that if one eye were to zoom while the other acts as reference, it might work. After a lot of getting used to it.
Dr Vital
QUOTE (Siege)
Disclaimer:  I'm pleasently tipsy

Just because a laser sight can reach say 10 or 20 or 30 meters, does it mean you'll be able to see the little blinking dot?

What's the effective range at which a laser sight is actually useful?  As I have never used one, I can only speculate here.

-Siege

I did a little checking around the 'net. Here's some examples that seem relevant:

Range: Visible up to 2000 yards at night and 30 feet in sunlight.
Dot Size: Approximately 0.5" diameter at 15 yards, 3.0" diameter at 100 yards

http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/optics_3.htm

Range: 450 meters (low light) to 30 meters daytime
Beam Diameter: 0.58 sq. cm @ 25 meters

http://www.rockcreeksports.com/laser-sights-MR-2.htm

And here's what These guys had to say...

visibility:

Most manufacturers will rate lasers in "yards"; ie. - 500 Yards, or 800 Yards, etc.... These ratings are based on VISIBLE dot in DARK conditions. The actual USABLE distance (in diminished lighting) on most lasers is 100 ~ 150 yards because the dot size is so large past these distances that the error variance is no longer acceptable. As to daylight use..... ALL RED (bar none) lasers sold to the general public fall under the above "less than 5mw" FDA rating AND ARE NOT VISIBLE IN THE DAYTIME beyond 10 ~ 25 FEET ! PERIOD. Any one who tells you different is not being honest with you. Only the newer GREEN lasers offer daylight visibility.


So obviously these things are visible to the naked eye at thousands of feet, at least at night. I think we can assume that in the future there will be robots... I mean, that these lasers will be much improved.
Austere Emancipator
Once again I notice that it's really hard to translate any of my rules to an otherwise canonical game. There's so much stuff in my games that I don't even consider "house rules", just common sense. Which of course conflicts with my own First Law of Roleplaying, as found in Darkest Angel's signature.

For example, you wouldn't get any bonuses vision magnification (of any kind, ever) with a bow in my games, Smartlink-requirement or not. And frankly my dear, I don't give a damn if bows are "useless"; that's one of those times that I find realism more exciting, so if some weapon is useless IRL, and wouldn't benefit greatly from new tech, it will be useless in my SR world as well. There are several reasons why modern military snipers aren't bodybuilders with custom bows.

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
I agree that houseruling scopes to require a take aim action is fair. I disagree with doing the same thing for vision magnification.

Good point. And since I require Smartlink anyway, I can't really justify why it would take very long to use the vision magnification. This is probably what I'll go with.

As for lasers and VisMag, my reasoning goes something like this: If you are aiming at a target 500 meters away, zooming in (rating 3, something like 12x) full view with your Cybereyes, and your Smartlink targeting reticle/ballistic line/whatever happens to be so much off target that it doesn't even appear on your view, you'll still know which direction you should correct your aim to get it back on. With a laser sight, you'd have to zoom out at least part of your view, find the dot, and get it back on target, which might get very disorienting. You'd simply lack the "feel" for where to aim.

At medium/long ranges, with weapons that have rather short ranges anyway (SMGs for example) it might work a lot better. But since the TN mods wouldn't stack anyway, this would provide no advantage whatsoever over using just the laser sight at Medium ranges. Maybe I could be convinced to allow the bonuses for rating 2 magnification with the aid of a laser sight if the range to the target was short enough (ie. not gonna happen with my Sniper Rifles which may have Med Ranges up to 500 meters or more), if someone Takes Aim. But it's going to be a rather marginal advantage anyway.
Eindrachen
One of the ways I always worked it was this:

1. Smartlink doesn't work with regular scopes. This is because that crosshair is in your eye; you'll see it in front of anything on the scope. However, I left the option in to turn off the crosshair to use the scope (i.e., swap modifiers).

2. Laser sights provide normal benefits at night; halve the ranges in the day. They don't work with a smartlink (duh), and only provide the bonus with a scope up to medium range.

3. If a PC gets Vision Magnification as a cybereye enhancement, then the bonuses with the smartlink do stack. However, the smartlink's bonus is only -1 at ranges of Long or Extreme, to account for the fact that at longer ranges the smallest movement of the gun will make a big difference in where the bullet lands.

4. Burst Fire and Full Auto negate any scope or other vision enhancement type of bonus, unless recoil compensation cancels all recoil penalties. (This was a reward for those with such weapons who thought up the fact that if the recoil ain't jiggling the gun around, then a scope ain't a bad idea.)

5. Scopes/vision enhancement provides only half the bonus for anything firing flechette ammo. (Shotguns with scopes are like flamethrowers with laser sights.)

I do suspend some disbelief in the Shadowrun weapons rules. Let's remember that this was hardly designed to be a realistic game; the entire things smacks of cinematic style rather than hard science. Those who want a more realistic combat system can go check out GURPS or something, but I find that far too much detail means that the GM and the players waste hours on a single combat taking into account the details, when the pace of the action should be more hectic, making the players act more like action heroes, and less like ballistic scientists.

Just my opinion, anyway...
Bob the Ninja
Wouldn't you have to have some way of changing a laser sight's point of reference for it to be effective at extreme renges? Otherwise, you'd wind up hitting way too low for long range shots.

I don't know a whole lot about laser sights IRL, but I think that they're mostly used for short range refelexive shooting, not long range sniper duels.
Siege
Actually, they can be used for reflexive shooting, but the primary purpose is for aiming and gun control.

Might I suggest that a person with Vision mag, be it cyber or magic, would zoom in stages?

"Ok, target. Blinking red dot that looks suspiciously like a round logo reading 'Insert Bullet Here'? Check."

"Zoom."

"Blinking red dot? Check."

"Zoom."

"Damn, blinking red dot is pointed at target's thigh, adjust. Check"

"Fire."

If the gun ain't on target when you're not using the zoom, why is it more complicated to bring it to bear with a laser sight when you are?

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Bob the Ninja)
Wouldn't you have to have some way of changing a laser sight's point of reference for it to be effective at extreme renges? Otherwise, you'd wind up hitting way too low for long range shots.

Pretty much yeah, which is one of the many, many things that got brought up when the issue of Laser Sights and Scopes stacking was discussed the last time. Of course if the laser sight "dot" is 50cm in diameter 500 meters away, it would be useless even if it could be rezeroed.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012