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> Firing around corners
lorechaser
post Dec 11 2006, 07:01 PM
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It seems to me that there is no practical reason a person with a smartgun can't simply do all of their firing by simply sticking their gun, and only their gun, out from cover.

Is there anything beyond LOS that would prevent this? I imagine the runner behind an embankment just sticking their gun above, and firing at everyone. The only issues I see are sight-lines from the gun camera.

Is that about right?
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Naysayer
post Dec 11 2006, 07:29 PM
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If you take what the RAW gives you on the smartlink then yup, that's what a runner could do.
Just note though that the guncam doesn't posses any vision-enhancement per se...
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Konsaki
post Dec 11 2006, 08:00 PM
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Unless purchased specificly for it...
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FlakJacket
post Dec 11 2006, 08:01 PM
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Plus it's going to be bloody awkward trying to fire the weapon that way. The way you hold it, dealing with recoil etc. are all going to be different from how you've learnt to use them normally so I'd see the GM adding on some penalties for it.
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mfb
post Dec 11 2006, 08:03 PM
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yeah. when you learn to use a firearm, you learn to use it in a specific way--you hold it the same way, you line it up with your eye the same way, you squeeze the trigger the same way, everything. varying from that should make things harder.
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Konsaki
post Dec 11 2006, 08:03 PM
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I agree...
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djinni
post Dec 11 2006, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
yeah. when you learn to use a firearm, you learn to use it in a specific way--you hold it the same way, you line it up with your eye the same way, you squeeze the trigger the same way, everything. varying from that should make things harder.

um...why would it make things harder? the smartlink gives you a crosshair on target, you rest the weapon and line it up then fire.

if you use the "varying from that will make it harder" then any and all combat situations will "make it harder"
look at the guys in a firing line, and honestly say they are doing exactly the same thing in a combat situation.
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Naysayer
post Dec 11 2006, 08:16 PM
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Oh, absolutely, a GM should definitely apply some mods here.
-1 or -2 (one for firing from cover, one for being a coward...) seems about right, I mean, you shouldn't penalize a runner too hard just for using the obvious tech at hand.
You might also cut down on the full-autofiring, I don't know, maybe by doubling uncompensated rc?

On the other hand, a smartlink-user might just be accustomed to being a sneaky corner-snipe?
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Eryk the Red
post Dec 11 2006, 08:52 PM
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They should be penalized because it's harder to aim holding the gun like that. Having a targeting reticle doesn't change that it's harder to actually get the gun into the position you want.

I have a player whose character does this all the time. I give a -2 penalty for positioning (which cancels the smartlink bonus nicely, thus making her as good shooting around corners as she would be shooting a non-smartlinked gun normally). Then, because she's almost entirely in cover, I give her a big bonus to defense(+4, I think) (I use cover as a bonus to defense, rather than a penalty to attack). It works pretty well, overall. No complaints yet.
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Ben
post Dec 11 2006, 08:53 PM
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As I pointed out to my GM, who thought it was broken and made smartgun users almost able to win against mages, you might want to take a look at what exists in 2006, I think it's pretty obvious that there's no reason why it wouldn't work in 2070!

Firing above a cover - FELIN

It may be akward firing in this position though, so a modifier would apply, say -2, and you can't use things such as shockpads.
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Charon
post Dec 11 2006, 08:57 PM
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You'd need an imagelink (either cyber or through your goggles) so that the images from the firearm perspective can be overlayed over your vision, since you are not looking where you are aiming.

And that's got to be a bit clumsier than directly looking since the hand-eye coordination assumes you are controlling your hands in relation to a specific POV that is now radically different.

I'd say -3 sounds about right, especially for balance reasons ; that's what a mage-sight goggle impose to a mage casting through a periscope. I like the symmetry.

The other problem of shooting that way would be recoil. SA it would work well enough but in BF/FA the fact that you are not lining up your body mass behind the firearm will make the recoil far harder to control and using a shockpad becomes impossible.

OTOH it makes that cyberarm gyromount damn valuable!

I'd say double the recoil penalty (before compensation) or whatever you find confortable.

Even with all these penalties, it'd still be a very solid tactic for a good shooter using a weapon with strong recoil compensation.
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Butterblume
post Dec 11 2006, 09:05 PM
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http://www.bimbel.de/artikel/artikel-26.html (pictures)
The fieldmount for the MG3, the Erdziellafette MG3 isn't exactly new either, and it let you shot the MG3 from complete cover, with last milleniums tech :D.

Hm, negating the smart link bonus sounds like a good idea. So does doubling uncompensated recoil.

One could always introduce a firing-around-the-corner quality for those guys who claim they've done it a lot and are therefore proficient ;).
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ChicagosFinest
post Dec 11 2006, 09:09 PM
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It's just one of those things tactically shitty. I think there should be other creative ways to get arround this one. Toss smoke or something but firing arround corners unless your gun is specifically created to give you that option/power is BS
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Ben
post Dec 11 2006, 09:13 PM
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@ChicagoFinest:

1/ why do you think it is so?

2/ the smartgun system is specifically designed to do so… (see the description in the book, IIRC there is the phrase "thus allowing the runner to shoot around corners")
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Kyoto Kid
post Dec 11 2006, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (djinni)
um...why would it make things harder? the smartlink gives you a crosshair on target, you rest the weapon and line it up then fire.

...first paint a wall using a brush or roller, then paint a ceiling. Even though you are using the same tools, the change in orientation adds to the degree of difficulty.
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djinni
post Dec 11 2006, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...first paint a wall using a brush or roller, then paint a ceiling. Even though you are using the same tools, the change in orientation adds to the degree of difficulty.

we aren't talking about hanging upside down while firing.
your example alters the orientation to an drastically unrealistic degree.
using the painting example it's like painting a wall, and then GASP painting a different wall.
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Konsaki
post Dec 11 2006, 09:29 PM
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take a 20oz bottle of coke/water/whatever. Hold it infront of you with your arm fully extended forward. Childs play
Now point it out to the side, fully extended. Then bend at the elbow to point your hand forward again. Hold it that way for a bit. Gets a little tougher right?
Now shift your arm back and forward a bit, like a gun is going off in your hand. Feel the effect on your shoulder? That's going to affect your aim, maybe not much for an experienced shooter, but it's enough to throw it off from your normal stance.

Now, if you try and tell me that your char shoots like that normally, I would immediatly slap him with a 'Distinguishing style' Neg Qual, with no bonus BP or Karma.
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Chandon
post Dec 11 2006, 09:31 PM
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WTF?

This is a basic thing that the game says you can do if you have a smartgun and an image link. There's a penalty in the modifiers table for it... -1 for shooting from cover. Why does everyone want to add random house rule penalties for a basic part of the game rules?
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Ben
post Dec 11 2006, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (Chandon)
Why does everyone want to add random house rule penalties for a basic part of the game rules?

I think that's because they don't use smartguns…
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Faelan
post Dec 11 2006, 09:35 PM
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The smartlink may be designed to do this, the gun and the human are not. Try firing a .44 magnum revolver, kicks a bit don't it. Now try firing out of line with it potentially turned 90 degrees. Please inform us how bad the damage to your wrist an fingers is because inquiring minds would like to now.

The way I see it being used most often in a tactical situation would be as a field expedient periscope, and for shooting around corners in the sense of throwing your arm around the corner maintaining a positive comfortable grip on the weapon system (most likely a pistol) providing you with the ability to avoid walking around a corner in a CQB situation and having the kneeling bastard pop you full of lead. Using it accurately at a distance, I think the machinery is fully capable, but the body is probably lacking. In this case it would be nice to have a cyberarm.
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Prime Mover
post Dec 11 2006, 09:35 PM
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Can use one of these which is made for the job.

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photo...tos/corner.aspx
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RunnerPaul
post Dec 11 2006, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (Chandon)
Why does everyone want to add random house rule penalties for a basic part of the game rules?

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's because their concept of what "shooting from cover" consists of is slightly different from yours and does not include the situation described above?
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Chandon
post Dec 11 2006, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE (Faelan @ Dec 11 2006, 04:35 PM)
The smartlink may be designed to do this, the gun and the human are not.

Based on the fact that this is basic functionality included in all smartguns (as of SR4), I'm going to go ahead and say that the guns *are* designed to do this.

If you really want to get picky about the position the character has to stand in to effectively use this technique, I guess you could force them to use their off hand for some of the shots - with the appropriate off hand penalty. Additionally, in some obvious cases a shock pad or stock wouldn't provide recoil compensation.

In a lot of cases though, this technique should just work. Visualize a right handed person shooting an SMG with retractable stock around a corner that's on their left. This is exactly like the "peeking around the corner to see the target" scenario, except the user's head doesn't get exposed.
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Kyoto Kid
post Dec 11 2006, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 11 2006, 04:21 PM)
...first paint a wall using a brush or roller, then paint a ceiling.  Even though you are using the same tools, the change in orientation adds to the degree of difficulty.

we aren't talking about hanging upside down while firing.
your example alters the orientation to an drastically unrealistic degree.

...not really. Extreme, yes, but not unrealistic considering the things I have seen characters attempt & the player say "oh, I'm smartlinked".

Konsaki's description actually demonstrates the problem pretty well.
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kzt
post Dec 11 2006, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Konsaki)
Now, if you try and tell me that your char shoots like that normally, I would immediatly slap him with a 'Distinguishing style' Neg Qual, with no bonus BP or Karma.

I knew a guy who got a used shotgun without a stock. Decided "oh, this is cool" and went out and fired turkey loads. The first one hurt, but he figured he was doing it wrong. So he fired it again. The doctor made him keep his wrist in a contraption for three weeks until it healed.
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