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lorechaser
It seems to me that there is no practical reason a person with a smartgun can't simply do all of their firing by simply sticking their gun, and only their gun, out from cover.

Is there anything beyond LOS that would prevent this? I imagine the runner behind an embankment just sticking their gun above, and firing at everyone. The only issues I see are sight-lines from the gun camera.

Is that about right?
Naysayer
If you take what the RAW gives you on the smartlink then yup, that's what a runner could do.
Just note though that the guncam doesn't posses any vision-enhancement per se...
Konsaki
Unless purchased specificly for it...
FlakJacket
Plus it's going to be bloody awkward trying to fire the weapon that way. The way you hold it, dealing with recoil etc. are all going to be different from how you've learnt to use them normally so I'd see the GM adding on some penalties for it.
mfb
yeah. when you learn to use a firearm, you learn to use it in a specific way--you hold it the same way, you line it up with your eye the same way, you squeeze the trigger the same way, everything. varying from that should make things harder.
Konsaki
I agree...
djinni
QUOTE (mfb)
yeah. when you learn to use a firearm, you learn to use it in a specific way--you hold it the same way, you line it up with your eye the same way, you squeeze the trigger the same way, everything. varying from that should make things harder.

um...why would it make things harder? the smartlink gives you a crosshair on target, you rest the weapon and line it up then fire.

if you use the "varying from that will make it harder" then any and all combat situations will "make it harder"
look at the guys in a firing line, and honestly say they are doing exactly the same thing in a combat situation.
Naysayer
Oh, absolutely, a GM should definitely apply some mods here.
-1 or -2 (one for firing from cover, one for being a coward...) seems about right, I mean, you shouldn't penalize a runner too hard just for using the obvious tech at hand.
You might also cut down on the full-autofiring, I don't know, maybe by doubling uncompensated rc?

On the other hand, a smartlink-user might just be accustomed to being a sneaky corner-snipe?
Eryk the Red
They should be penalized because it's harder to aim holding the gun like that. Having a targeting reticle doesn't change that it's harder to actually get the gun into the position you want.

I have a player whose character does this all the time. I give a -2 penalty for positioning (which cancels the smartlink bonus nicely, thus making her as good shooting around corners as she would be shooting a non-smartlinked gun normally). Then, because she's almost entirely in cover, I give her a big bonus to defense(+4, I think) (I use cover as a bonus to defense, rather than a penalty to attack). It works pretty well, overall. No complaints yet.
Ben
As I pointed out to my GM, who thought it was broken and made smartgun users almost able to win against mages, you might want to take a look at what exists in 2006, I think it's pretty obvious that there's no reason why it wouldn't work in 2070!

Firing above a cover - FELIN

It may be akward firing in this position though, so a modifier would apply, say -2, and you can't use things such as shockpads.
Charon
You'd need an imagelink (either cyber or through your goggles) so that the images from the firearm perspective can be overlayed over your vision, since you are not looking where you are aiming.

And that's got to be a bit clumsier than directly looking since the hand-eye coordination assumes you are controlling your hands in relation to a specific POV that is now radically different.

I'd say -3 sounds about right, especially for balance reasons ; that's what a mage-sight goggle impose to a mage casting through a periscope. I like the symmetry.

The other problem of shooting that way would be recoil. SA it would work well enough but in BF/FA the fact that you are not lining up your body mass behind the firearm will make the recoil far harder to control and using a shockpad becomes impossible.

OTOH it makes that cyberarm gyromount damn valuable!

I'd say double the recoil penalty (before compensation) or whatever you find confortable.

Even with all these penalties, it'd still be a very solid tactic for a good shooter using a weapon with strong recoil compensation.
Butterblume
http://www.bimbel.de/artikel/artikel-26.html (pictures)
The fieldmount for the MG3, the Erdziellafette MG3 isn't exactly new either, and it let you shot the MG3 from complete cover, with last milleniums tech biggrin.gif.

Hm, negating the smart link bonus sounds like a good idea. So does doubling uncompensated recoil.

One could always introduce a firing-around-the-corner quality for those guys who claim they've done it a lot and are therefore proficient wink.gif.
ChicagosFinest
It's just one of those things tactically shitty. I think there should be other creative ways to get arround this one. Toss smoke or something but firing arround corners unless your gun is specifically created to give you that option/power is BS
Ben
@ChicagoFinest:

1/ why do you think it is so?

2/ the smartgun system is specifically designed to do so… (see the description in the book, IIRC there is the phrase "thus allowing the runner to shoot around corners")
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (djinni)
um...why would it make things harder? the smartlink gives you a crosshair on target, you rest the weapon and line it up then fire.

...first paint a wall using a brush or roller, then paint a ceiling. Even though you are using the same tools, the change in orientation adds to the degree of difficulty.
djinni
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...first paint a wall using a brush or roller, then paint a ceiling. Even though you are using the same tools, the change in orientation adds to the degree of difficulty.

we aren't talking about hanging upside down while firing.
your example alters the orientation to an drastically unrealistic degree.
using the painting example it's like painting a wall, and then GASP painting a different wall.
Konsaki
take a 20oz bottle of coke/water/whatever. Hold it infront of you with your arm fully extended forward. Childs play
Now point it out to the side, fully extended. Then bend at the elbow to point your hand forward again. Hold it that way for a bit. Gets a little tougher right?
Now shift your arm back and forward a bit, like a gun is going off in your hand. Feel the effect on your shoulder? That's going to affect your aim, maybe not much for an experienced shooter, but it's enough to throw it off from your normal stance.

Now, if you try and tell me that your char shoots like that normally, I would immediatly slap him with a 'Distinguishing style' Neg Qual, with no bonus BP or Karma.
Chandon
WTF?

This is a basic thing that the game says you can do if you have a smartgun and an image link. There's a penalty in the modifiers table for it... -1 for shooting from cover. Why does everyone want to add random house rule penalties for a basic part of the game rules?
Ben
QUOTE (Chandon)
Why does everyone want to add random house rule penalties for a basic part of the game rules?

I think that's because they don't use smartguns…
Faelan
The smartlink may be designed to do this, the gun and the human are not. Try firing a .44 magnum revolver, kicks a bit don't it. Now try firing out of line with it potentially turned 90 degrees. Please inform us how bad the damage to your wrist an fingers is because inquiring minds would like to now.

The way I see it being used most often in a tactical situation would be as a field expedient periscope, and for shooting around corners in the sense of throwing your arm around the corner maintaining a positive comfortable grip on the weapon system (most likely a pistol) providing you with the ability to avoid walking around a corner in a CQB situation and having the kneeling bastard pop you full of lead. Using it accurately at a distance, I think the machinery is fully capable, but the body is probably lacking. In this case it would be nice to have a cyberarm.
Prime Mover
Can use one of these which is made for the job.

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photo...tos/corner.aspx
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Chandon)
Why does everyone want to add random house rule penalties for a basic part of the game rules?

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's because their concept of what "shooting from cover" consists of is slightly different from yours and does not include the situation described above?
Chandon
QUOTE (Faelan @ Dec 11 2006, 04:35 PM)
The smartlink may be designed to do this, the gun and the human are not.

Based on the fact that this is basic functionality included in all smartguns (as of SR4), I'm going to go ahead and say that the guns *are* designed to do this.

If you really want to get picky about the position the character has to stand in to effectively use this technique, I guess you could force them to use their off hand for some of the shots - with the appropriate off hand penalty. Additionally, in some obvious cases a shock pad or stock wouldn't provide recoil compensation.

In a lot of cases though, this technique should just work. Visualize a right handed person shooting an SMG with retractable stock around a corner that's on their left. This is exactly like the "peeking around the corner to see the target" scenario, except the user's head doesn't get exposed.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 11 2006, 04:21 PM)
...first paint a wall using a brush or roller, then paint a ceiling.  Even though you are using the same tools, the change in orientation adds to the degree of difficulty.

we aren't talking about hanging upside down while firing.
your example alters the orientation to an drastically unrealistic degree.

...not really. Extreme, yes, but not unrealistic considering the things I have seen characters attempt & the player say "oh, I'm smartlinked".

Konsaki's description actually demonstrates the problem pretty well.
kzt
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Now, if you try and tell me that your char shoots like that normally, I would immediatly slap him with a 'Distinguishing style' Neg Qual, with no bonus BP or Karma.

I knew a guy who got a used shotgun without a stock. Decided "oh, this is cool" and went out and fired turkey loads. The first one hurt, but he figured he was doing it wrong. So he fired it again. The doctor made him keep his wrist in a contraption for three weeks until it healed.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Now, if you try and tell me that your char shoots like that normally, I would immediatly slap him with a 'Distinguishing style' Neg Qual, with no bonus BP or Karma.

It's not just a question of getting used to it either. The design of the upper human body simply makes isosceles or weaver type stances the most accurate and fastest ways for us to fire handguns. Even if you'd always fired guns with your main hand at a freaky angle and the supporting hand coming at the grip sideways, you'd still be at a significant disadvantage to people who fire their guns the "old fashioned" (that is to say correct) way.

The SR3 mechanism of using a bit, some, or lots of cover already sort of took this kind of thing into account. Maybe something similar will appear in Arsenal, just like it did in Cannon Companion for 3rd Ed?

QUOTE (Chandon)
Visualize a right handed person shooting an SMG with retractable stock around a corner that's on their left. This is exactly like the "peeking around the corner to see the target" scenario, except the user's head doesn't get exposed.

...plus, unless you are exposing your right shoulder and side, you have a far less stable firing stance and have no direct line into your body to reduce the effect of the recoil, seriously screwing with your accuracy.
Faelan
What I am saying is that a player attempting to expose one hand, and just one hand and the gun around the corner, aiming and shooting is going to most likely have a catastrophic failure of that hand. When I say the gun is not designed for it I mean the gun is still intended to be fired normally, and that normal direct fire is its principal mode of operation. On this basis I have to argue that firing around a corner is a secondary feature. If it were the primary firing method direct fire would be less than ideal.
Chandon
There's no penalty in SR4 for firing a handgun one handed. Perhaps there should be, but in the BBB there isn't.

Given that, stand up and figure out what a one handed pistol stance would look like. Now go find a doorway / corner and see if you can maintain that one handed pistol stance around the corner (on the preferred side - off-side corners are harder, hence my suggesting the off hand penalty for off-side corners).

I think you'll find that if you assume an image linked gun camera and an effective one handed pistol stance, you can shoot around a corner pretty easily exposing only the gun, part of the arm, and possibly the shoulder.

If you stand back a little bit from the corner, you can use an only slightly-compromised two handed stance that's easily as good as a one handed pistol stance - still without leaving your head or torso open.
Konsaki
Most one handed pistol stances have you standing mostly sideways so your shoulder takes most of the recoil and you can continue to aim. Now, if you tried to do this around a corner, your entire body would be almost out of cover and, well, you get the rest. This is if you are in a proper stance, for no penalty, but you wouldnt get cover.

What's a good tradeoff, shooting from cover with a penalty to aim, or getting shot as you look perfect in your no recoil stance?
Note that I am referencing use of a pistol and nothing bigger. When you try to 1-hand anything bigger, it gets increasingly tougher. Imagine trying to 1-hand an assault rifle and expect any sort of accuracy... Ha.
Fortune
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Dec 12 2006, 08:37 AM)
If I had to guess, I'd say that it's because their concept of what "shooting from cover" consists of is slightly different from yours and does not include the situation described above?

Pretty much. Shooting from cover is a lot different than shooting around corners in the way that is being described originally. Chandon's latest description is pretty much what I would call 'shooting from cover', and not necessarily 'shooting around a corner', as he is exposing more of his body than the original description infered.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Chandon)
I think you'll find that if you assume an image linked gun camera and an effective one handed pistol stance, you can shoot around a corner pretty easily exposing only the gun, part of the arm, and possibly the shoulder.

If you're exposing the arm(s) and the shoulder, the only real difference between firing around a corner with an imagelink and without is that you don't have to stick part of your head around the corner as well. Which may be an advantage, but probably too minor a one to be considered in SR4 or SR3 -- and at least in SR3 it wouldn't matter anyway, since if you have a certain amount of cover you're going to suck up a certain penalty on your attack, and that's that.

QUOTE (Chandon)
Given that, stand up and figure out what a one handed pistol stance would look like. Now go find a doorway / corner and see if you can maintain that one handed pistol stance around the corner (on the preferred side - off-side corners are harder, hence my suggesting the off hand penalty for off-side corners).

My optimal one-handed stance would have at least about 40-50% of my body exposed any time I attempted to fire around a corner: my right arm, right leg (slightly ahead of me right under my arm), right shoulder and part of the side plus part of the head. If I expose any less, my accuracy will suffer. The imagelink would mean I wouldn't have to expose my head, which seems like good idea if possible, but not something I'd make any specific rule for.
Chandon
Konsaki -

Actually stand up, find a corner, and try it under the assumption that you don't have to sight down the gun because you have a gun cam. You'll find a couple of positions where the recoil would be merely bad and not horrific. Remember that your character is a Shadowrunner and not a security guard trainee, and so if his stance is slightly off it's ok.

Austere Emancipator -

Try compromising your stance slightly for more cover. The game rules imply that this gun cam thing is useful, and they don't even mention proper firing stances. In fact, people can fire "gangsta style" with no penalty, so a more reasonable but not perfect stance should work just fine.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Chandon)
Remember that your character is a Shadowrunner and not a security guard trainee, and so if his stance is slightly off it's ok.

Right, meaning he can suck up the -3 dice pool and still stand a good chance of hitting something, while his opponents might have to take a -4 to hit his arm. Or whatever.

So much easier for me: +1 to attack, +2 to opponents attacking you OR +2 to attack, +4 to opponents attacking you OR +3 to attack, +6 to opponents attacking you, and no amount of showing off how you can totally hold a gun perfectly stable at a 90 degree angle makes any difference.

QUOTE (Chandon)
In fact, people can fire "gangsta style" with no penalty [...]

It says that somewhere? That you can grip your weapon any ole weird-ass way, over your head with your toes or whatever, and never suffer any penalty whatsoever?
Fortune
QUOTE (Chandon)
Remember that your character is a Shadowrunner and not a security guard trainee, and so if his stance is slightly off it's ok.

That's true, because as a big bad shadowrunner their elite skill levels can overcome the penalties for shooting in such a manner.
mfb
QUOTE (djinni)
um...why would it make things harder? the smartlink gives you a crosshair on target, you rest the weapon and line it up then fire.

because through the sights of a firearm, everything is really small unless it's fairly close. the ability of someone to set their sights--even electronic sights--on a target and keep it there long enough to fire is not simply a matter of hand-eye coordination. shifting the attitude of your weapon by a millimeter will cause you to miss unless you're close enough to your target that you don't need to aim anyway.

people talk about aiming around corners and stuff, and in their mind, they're talking about shooting a target that's maybe 5 meters away. yeah, with a guncam and a smartlink, that shouldn't be too hard, even in the heat of a firefight. but hitting a target 10m away is going to be tough. hitting a target 30m is going to be really, really tough. further than that, and i'd start looking at terms like "impossible".
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (mfb)
further than that, and i'd start looking at terms like "impossible".

At that point, you might as well throw a banana peel at them. biggrin.gif
This is NOT a thread about longshot tests or edge! Don't make me regret that joke.
KarmaInferno
I wonder if telescoping arms will be in Augmentation.

Then I could recreate my 3rd Edition sammie with the two camera-equipped cyberarms firing from what appears to be two positions at once.

biggrin.gif


-karma
djinni
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
At that point, you might as well throw a banana peel at them.

player: alright I'm out of ammo, I'm going to throw a banana peel
GM: why?
player: since it's impossile to hurt him I'm going to roll just my edge...
GM: why?
player: because I'm out of ammo duh!
Moon-Hawk
Go go gadget arms!
Konsaki
MFB, remember that there is a range table just to figure in negatives for how far away the target is. So your argument about how the target is within 5m is moot.
mfb
-3 dice != impossible.
Naysayer
QUOTE (Fortune)
That's true, because as a big bad shadowrunner their elite skill levels can overcome the penalties for shooting in such a manner.

Also, Shadowrunners are badass. Hell, given enough badass, they don't need to aim at all! Just point the piece in the general direction of... ah, whatever, just SHOOT and let them pigs drop like flies!
ahem.

Seriously though, this is a game, not an accurate combat-simulation. The rules say there's this tech that let's you shoot round corners, and for me, that's fair enough.
Konsaki
QUOTE (Naysayer)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 11 2006, 05:24 PM)
That's true, because as a big bad shadowrunner their elite skill levels can overcome the penalties for shooting in such a manner.

Also, Shadowrunners are badass. Hell, given enough badass, they don't need to aim at all! Just point the piece in the general direction of... ah, whatever, just SHOOT and let them pigs drop like flies!
ahem.

Seriously though, this is a game, not an accurate combat-simulation. The rules say there's this tech that let's you shoot round corners, and for me, that's fair enough.

No!
Shadowrunner =/= Chuck Norris
hyzmarca
I have a brilliant idea.
Let's ask this guy.
Naysayer
Is that Chuck Norris?
Faradon
QUOTE (Naysayer)
Is that Chuck Norris?

No, chuck norris would be wearing a blindfold, not goggles...
Konsaki
The Army could only dream of getting Chuck Norris, but alas, he already served his time in the USAF. biggrin.gif
lorechaser
Hmmm.

So the consensus seems to be "Per RAW, the only penalty is a -1 for cover, and the loss of a Shock Pad if you have it. Per logic, an extra -2 to -3 penalty."

That picture was more what I was envisioning - someone behind a bunker simply sticking the gun up and using the gun's smartlink.

Interesting.

That's about what I thought, but I wanted to poll the collective brillance of the Dumpers. Shockers. Err, DSers.
ShadowDragon
Firing from total cover with a smartgun is a common tactic for my group (and the NPCs they face). I'm surprised that so many people here are bothered by it...

It may seem overpowered, but in practise it's not. All you have to do to negate it is toss a grenade or move your possition.
Charon
QUOTE (Chandon @ Dec 11 2006, 05:20 PM)
Remember that your character is a Shadowrunner and not a security guard trainee,

Yeah, amongst many differences they shoot better. Probably because they have better technique. Which means a better stance.

Anyway you look at it, shooting around corner should have substantial (though not prohibitive) penalties.

I already suggested -3 and doubling recoil.

I would add doubling range penalty since your poor stability will have ever greater repercussion as the target is farther.

I would still consider that a pretty good tactic in many situations, especially when you are in a defensive position and your opponents need to come to you.
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