 Some general security questions about hacking., IC specifically. |
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 Dec 12 2006, 12:01 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659  |
Okay, I will be buying a bar/gentlemans club soon and using it as my awesome base of operations and the center of coolness in my universe. In breif talks with the GM and past experience with our playstyles in our games we have certain scene immunity items where they're kind of more plot devices and "off limits" to certain things. IE, nobody realizes Clark Kent is really superman even though he doesn't cover his face and just takes off his glasses. However I'd like to set up wireless security anyway, but still keep within the SR theme of everything is wireless. IE, records of which gentlemen come are online, not on some data chip kept in my pocket.
So here is what I thought of doing: Building has wireless that is pretty much kept inside the building itself. Done by reduced range, not special paint. Gotta let those cell phone calls through. Then run some agent/firewall PC that scans for signals, and if it detects people it analyzes them (matrix perception) to determine what software it's running. Anyone running hacker software gets a visit from the meanest cyber ork in the place - me. Is that legit? |
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Dec 12 2006, 12:33 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I would say that you have to hack into a node to find out what it is running.
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Dec 12 2006, 12:40 AM
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#3
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
If a GM allows, you could sniff network traffic and then decrypt which could tell you what sort of activity was going on.
You'd also have an agent doing frequent scanning for devices in hidden mode, though this doesn't mean you'll detect hacking, just people being rude. I don't think you can really pull this off. I think your best bet is to purchase a high-rated agent, give it a snooty personality and orders to track anyone who is hacking. He can probably sneak into ordinary commlinks to see what is going on. But for the ones that it can't without either a fight or triggering alarms, use the aforementioned sniffing and decrypting technique above, subject to GM approval. |
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Dec 12 2006, 12:58 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Maybe, but maybe not. Look at the perception rules.
So in VR mode the IC is looking over the guy who resembles the hamburgler and notices he's carrying a crowbar which represents a rating 6 hacking program. Now he could just have it running and could be probing the target but the fact that it's running alone would warrant investigation right? |
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Dec 12 2006, 01:19 AM
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#5
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I personally would not allow a matrix perception test to examine a program until you had successfully gained access to where it was running. That means breaking into your guest's node (commlink). Your GM may take a different approach, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise you can affect programs running on a node that you can't actually access. |
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Dec 12 2006, 01:29 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
You can't affect the programs, no. But you could probably inspect them.
In VR everything is represented by an icon. The guy that looks like an armored knight with a sword might be running armor and attack for instance. You inspect the sword and it's excalibur the rating 7 milspec program. It's a grey area of the book for sure, but not expressly forbidden unless I missed something. |
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Dec 12 2006, 01:44 AM
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#7
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Ahhh, yes. I'm sure you don't mean that to sound patronising, but been playing since 1st edition, here (started very young). My point is that you can't look at the excaliber sword or the persona that's carrying it unless you and it are in the same node. And you can't get into the same node unless you can break the security on it. In this case the node is the guest's commlink. |
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Dec 12 2006, 01:48 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
So if your persona is partly made up of what programs you're using I think you should be able to inspect them. |
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Dec 12 2006, 01:53 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Well, I've been playing for like a year now, all the way since 4th edition! However I have a copy of the rulebook, so that helps... If the first edition book clears up matrix perception tests on other personas feel free to quote it. You make a matrix perception test against a persona, not a node. A persona can be a node, but doesn't have to be. |
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Dec 12 2006, 02:04 AM
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#10
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Okay. You get my point about needing to be in proximity to the persona in order to do a matrix perception test on it, but you consider the persona to be available. Sort of sitting at the door of the node, as it were. There is commlink A and if I go to it, I can see the owner's persona there.
You see my point of view is that node (commlink A) is opaque to me unless I have access to it and go there. Perhaps in VR it looks like a castle. But the drawbridge is up until I either log-in with the correct access account or break in through hacking. If the owner (via his persona) had hacked into another guests commlink, then I could presumably see that persona in that node (the other guest's commlink), but again, only if I were in the node. Without being in a node where that persona exists, I don't see you being able to percieve that persona. I'm not likely to budge on that one as it makes sense to me (no clairvoyance in the matrix), unless someone comes up with a compelling argument otherwise (Serbitar, probably. :S ) But it might be interesting to think what interaction between two nodes looks like. If there is a direct connection between the commlinks of hacker and victim (Comm A and Comm B) then short of the aforementioned sniffing test, I don't see how anyone else can observe the interaction in VR. If there were not a direct interaction between the two nodes then perhaps it would be different. Let us say that both commlinks are subscribed to your club's node. In this case you might be able to witness, sitting in the clubs node, the persona from Comm A sitting outside the node to Comm B, hacking at it with sword, chanting incantations or whathaveyou. In that case, you would be allowed your perception test. I'm not sure if this third node scenario should be allowed. But you see where I'm coming from with the no see guidelines in the original scenario. Things are a little different in SR4 than they were in previous editions. Matrix systems no longer seem to be a maze of twisty little passages. EDIT: You posted while I was typing. Previous editions wont really help. It was just my response to the explanation of what a persona is. ;) You may well be correct in how you play it, that a persona is there and visible all the time. But I don't see it that way and it wouldn't fly in my game. I don't think a persona can be a node, and you can indeed make a matrix perception test against a node. Your GM may allow you to play this way. You can ask. As you said this is mainly for background, though. I sincerely recommend you just purchase a high-rated agent and have it work as security on its own initiative. You can give it a fun personality, almost as a secondary character. |
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Dec 12 2006, 02:19 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
You're looking at personas as being inside of nodes, etc. I don't think that's the way it works.
Going to the book for descriptions: Node: Any device or network that can be accessed. Persona: The “shell” program that represents a user in the Matrix; the user’s icon. The book says: When you access a node, you do not “go there,” but you see (or otherwise perceive) an icon of that node “projected” in your vision. I think that nodes exist in the matrix not vice versa. You seem to be taking the thought that the matrix and cybercombat/perception happens within a node. I think SR4 is designed so that it happens in the matrix and nodes are a part of the matrix. |
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Dec 12 2006, 02:30 AM
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#12
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Yes. I am taking it that way. I think we need more people to stick their heads in here and add their views on this. You're looking for a particular answer which I'm not giving you. You want to know that X is possible. I don't think it is, but your own GM might allow it if they see the matrix differently than I. That's perfectly possible and valid within that game but if you're hoping for something from this thread that you can take to your GM to argue it, I suspect you wont get it. This will particularly be the casewith those who come from an earlier edition. Action in the matrix has always historically taken place within a node. Nothing happened between them, these were places of instantaneous transmission. You were in node A or you were in node B. You were never standing in between them grappling. If someone's persona is visible and accessible (for cyber-combat, tracing, whatever) outside of their node, then things are going to get messy in all sorts of ways. I could be wrong but I reckon I've made my point of view pretty clear so I'll sit back and wait to see what other people think. |
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Dec 12 2006, 02:39 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
If your cyberleg is a wireless device though then it's also a node. A "node" isn't a complete network within a company.
I think the RAW back me up. But that doesn't mean the designers were doing some thinking like you when writing it. |
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Dec 12 2006, 03:14 AM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm with knasser on this one.
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Dec 12 2006, 03:15 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
So how do you guys determine the system/firewall rating of something you want to hack into?
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Dec 12 2006, 03:24 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
You'd also never be able to spoof commands to a drone because in order to do that you need to do a matrix pereption and ask for the ID on the guy giving the orders. The way you play it you'd need to hack into his commlink before you could perform a matrix perception in order to spoof him. But by then you already have access to his commlink and can just send the orders yourself.
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Dec 12 2006, 03:37 AM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
see, now this is at least a semi-valid point, maybe even better (too lazy to look up anything). but i tend to agree overall with knasser as well... i would say you can do a perception test on their node (which he has indicated) but you cannot do a perception test on what is within a given node unless you are also within that given node. if someone has their persona sitting inside their commlink's node, then the only way you can see what's in their node is if you are also in their node (note that, with certain settings turned on, i would allow a group of commlinks to function as a single node in much the way i would be inclined to treat a PAN as overall a single node). as far as being able to spoof, first off you can always sniffer him (you'll probably have to, in fact, because otherwise how do you know who's controlling the drone in the first place?), and you could get his 'ID' simply by examining his home node. |
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Dec 12 2006, 05:23 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
High gain directional antennas still work just fine if a weak signal leaks out. And if the network on the inside is connected to the net you can always attack it from the outside. Which is going to be the case unless you explicitly block connectivity for all wireless. Once an attacker owns the system inside the building they can do whatever they want. There really doesn't seem a way in SR4 to have a wireless network that is even vaguely secure due to the decryption idiocy. Of course, this also means that you can't trust anything that you receive electronically, as the only way to authenticate anything electronically requires encryption that is effectively unbreakable. |
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Dec 12 2006, 05:40 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
What page are high gain directional antennas on? I can't find them.
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Dec 12 2006, 05:56 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Thats why you encrypt encrypted data. By that I mean you use probably idealy a custom cypher to encode a message into an otherwise ordinary looking piece of data/mail and then encrypt that using computer encryption.
Technically speaking you couldnt just run an ordinary decrypt program on that, since the real key isnt a computerized encryption. But that sort of debate is really kinda getting off topic. Realy your best bet to allow the place to be 'public' yet as secure as possible, is yes, to a) Limit the transmission range of the network so that it's only within the building. b) Put in the best firewall and OS your GM will allow c) Toss in some nice ICE and one or two good agents that specifically try to track down hackers. d) Setup the system to send an alert to your comlink the moment it even thinks something is wrong. Also setup your comlink to alert you if it doesnt recieve a notice from the system within a specific time period. That way an enemy hacker cant just prevent the system from sending the notification without there being at least some chance you'll notice something is amiss. I mean otherwise so what if a hacker type is sitting in your bar? Maybe he's just another runner stopping by for a brew with some friends. It's generally a bad idea to simply attack the guy when he isnt actually even thinking about doing anything malicious to your own system. By all means though setup some stuff to go try to smash anyone who tries to access private parts of the system without proper identification (Though I wouldnt suggest a blackhammer here, otherwise you could wind up frying some one's brain who hasnt -really- done anything illegal) |
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Dec 12 2006, 05:57 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
I think he's refering to RL equipment as opposed to something you'll find in the basic SR book. Its the sort of thing I'd more expect out of the as yet to come out expanded matrix rule book. |
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Dec 12 2006, 06:08 AM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Yep. It's very sophisticated piece of tightly controlled equipment. Well, as long as you control the worlds supply of Pringles potato chips, so as to keep their cans out of the hands of evildoers, it's tightly controlled. . . How to make a Pringles can into a high gain Directional Antenna |
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Dec 12 2006, 06:15 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Aye, if your wanting to get really indepth with how wireless security would work in 2070 you simply have to look at the realities of todays modern wireless world. Because while the encryption bases, data flows etc all change drastically. The basics of security will allways remain the same. What's possible IRL with wireless would be just as possible with wireless in the Matrix. Just you also have AIs, Agents, and all sorts of ultra high end software etc that doenst exist yet. I say yet because just look at the advancements in computer AI since the 1980's.
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Dec 12 2006, 06:26 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I don't get what you are trying to say. And if you confine AI to the way that SR uses (What is called strong AI) there has been about zero progress since 1980. Which is why there is also about zero funding, at least compared to the glory days in the 80s. :S |
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Dec 12 2006, 07:07 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
For game balance though a lot of possible stuff can't be used in SR. You might disagree, but that's another thread. Otherwise it can get super silly.
Nobody has still said any thing from the book that counters what I'm trying to do... |
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