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Lord Ben
Okay, I will be buying a bar/gentlemans club soon and using it as my awesome base of operations and the center of coolness in my universe. In breif talks with the GM and past experience with our playstyles in our games we have certain scene immunity items where they're kind of more plot devices and "off limits" to certain things. IE, nobody realizes Clark Kent is really superman even though he doesn't cover his face and just takes off his glasses. However I'd like to set up wireless security anyway, but still keep within the SR theme of everything is wireless. IE, records of which gentlemen come are online, not on some data chip kept in my pocket.

So here is what I thought of doing:
Building has wireless that is pretty much kept inside the building itself. Done by reduced range, not special paint. Gotta let those cell phone calls through. Then run some agent/firewall PC that scans for signals, and if it detects people it analyzes them (matrix perception) to determine what software it's running. Anyone running hacker software gets a visit from the meanest cyber ork in the place - me.

Is that legit?
Serbitar
I would say that you have to hack into a node to find out what it is running.
knasser
If a GM allows, you could sniff network traffic and then decrypt which could tell you what sort of activity was going on.

You'd also have an agent doing frequent scanning for devices in hidden mode, though this doesn't mean you'll detect hacking, just people being rude.

I don't think you can really pull this off. I think your best bet is to purchase a high-rated agent, give it a snooty personality and orders to track anyone who is hacking. He can probably sneak into ordinary commlinks to see what is going on. But for the ones that it can't without either a fight or triggering alarms, use the aforementioned sniffing and decrypting technique above, subject to GM approval.
Lord Ben
QUOTE (Serbitar)
I would say that you have to hack into a node to find out what it is running.

Maybe, but maybe not. Look at the perception rules.

QUOTE
If you wish to specifically examine an arrow, dot, or other Matrix object—users, programs, IC, nodes, files, etc.—take a Simple Action to Observe in Detail

Your net hits determine how successful the examination is. For each net hit scored, you can ask for one piece of information about the object—this could be type, rating, alert status, or any other pertinent information.


So in VR mode the IC is looking over the guy who resembles the hamburgler and notices he's carrying a crowbar which represents a rating 6 hacking program. Now he could just have it running and could be probing the target but the fact that it's running alone would warrant investigation right?
knasser

I personally would not allow a matrix perception test to examine a program until you had successfully gained access to where it was running. That means breaking into your guest's node (commlink).

Your GM may take a different approach, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise you can affect programs running on a node that you can't actually access.
Lord Ben
You can't affect the programs, no. But you could probably inspect them.

In VR everything is represented by an icon. The guy that looks like an armored knight with a sword might be running armor and attack for instance. You inspect the sword and it's excalibur the rating 7 milspec program.

It's a grey area of the book for sure, but not expressly forbidden unless I missed something.
knasser
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
You can't affect the programs, no. But you could probably inspect them.

In VR everything is represented by an icon. The guy that looks like an armored knight with a sword might be running armor and attack for instance. You inspect the sword and it's excalibur the rating 7 milspec program.


Ahhh, yes. I'm sure you don't mean that to sound patronising, but been playing since 1st edition, here (started very young).

My point is that you can't look at the excaliber sword or the persona that's carrying it unless you and it are in the same node. And you can't get into the same node unless you can break the security on it. In this case the node is the guest's commlink.
Lord Ben
QUOTE
Th e persona represents your Matrix alter ego. It is a combination
of programs that you use, in conjunction with your
device’s OS, to represent yourself to other users and nodes in
the Matrix.


So if your persona is partly made up of what programs you're using I think you should be able to inspect them.
Lord Ben
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Dec 12 2006, 01:29 AM)
You can't affect the programs, no.  But you could probably inspect them.

In VR everything is represented by an icon.  The guy that looks like an armored knight with a sword might be running armor and attack for instance.  You inspect the sword and it's excalibur the rating 7 milspec program.


Ahhh, yes. I'm sure you don't mean that to sound patronising, but been playing since 1st edition, here (started very young).

My point is that you can't look at the excaliber sword or the persona that's carrying it unless you and it are in the same node. And you can't get into the same node unless you can break the security on it. In this case the node is the guest's commlink.

Well, I've been playing for like a year now, all the way since 4th edition! However I have a copy of the rulebook, so that helps... If the first edition book clears up matrix perception tests on other personas feel free to quote it.

You make a matrix perception test against a persona, not a node. A persona can be a node, but doesn't have to be.
knasser
Okay. You get my point about needing to be in proximity to the persona in order to do a matrix perception test on it, but you consider the persona to be available. Sort of sitting at the door of the node, as it were. There is commlink A and if I go to it, I can see the owner's persona there.

You see my point of view is that node (commlink A) is opaque to me unless I have access to it and go there. Perhaps in VR it looks like a castle. But the drawbridge is up until I either log-in with the correct access account or break in through hacking. If the owner (via his persona) had hacked into another guests commlink, then I could presumably see that persona in that node (the other guest's commlink), but again, only if I were in the node. Without being in a node where that persona exists, I don't see you being able to percieve that persona.

I'm not likely to budge on that one as it makes sense to me (no clairvoyance in the matrix), unless someone comes up with a compelling argument otherwise (Serbitar, probably. sarcastic.gif ) But it might be interesting to think what interaction between two nodes looks like. If there is a direct connection between the commlinks of hacker and victim (Comm A and Comm B) then short of the aforementioned sniffing test, I don't see how anyone else can observe the interaction in VR. If there were not a direct interaction between the two nodes then perhaps it would be different. Let us say that both commlinks are subscribed to your club's node. In this case you might be able to witness, sitting in the clubs node, the persona from Comm A sitting outside the node to Comm B, hacking at it with sword, chanting incantations or whathaveyou. In that case, you would be allowed your perception test.

I'm not sure if this third node scenario should be allowed. But you see where I'm coming from with the no see guidelines in the original scenario. Things are a little different in SR4 than they were in previous editions. Matrix systems no longer seem to be a maze of twisty little passages.

EDIT: You posted while I was typing. Previous editions wont really help. It was just my response to the explanation of what a persona is. wink.gif You may well be correct in how you play it, that a persona is there and visible all the time. But I don't see it that way and it wouldn't fly in my game. I don't think a persona can be a node, and you can indeed make a matrix perception test against a node. Your GM may allow you to play this way. You can ask. As you said this is mainly for background, though. I sincerely recommend you just purchase a high-rated agent and have it work as security on its own initiative. You can give it a fun personality, almost as a secondary character.
Lord Ben
You're looking at personas as being inside of nodes, etc. I don't think that's the way it works.

Going to the book for descriptions:
Node: Any device or network that can be accessed.
Persona: The “shell” program that represents a user in the Matrix; the user’s icon.

The book says: When you access a node, you do not “go there,” but you see (or otherwise perceive) an icon of that node “projected” in your vision.

I think that nodes exist in the matrix not vice versa. You seem to be taking the thought that the matrix and cybercombat/perception happens within a node. I think SR4 is designed so that it happens in the matrix and nodes are a part of the matrix.
knasser

Yes. I am taking it that way. I think we need more people to stick their heads in here and add their views on this.

You're looking for a particular answer which I'm not giving you. You want to know that X is possible. I don't think it is, but your own GM might allow it if they see the matrix differently than I. That's perfectly possible and valid within that game but if you're hoping for something from this thread that you can take to your GM to argue it, I suspect you wont get it. This will particularly be the casewith those who come from an earlier edition. Action in the matrix has always historically taken place within a node. Nothing happened between them, these were places of instantaneous transmission. You were in node A or you were in node B. You were never standing in between them grappling.

If someone's persona is visible and accessible (for cyber-combat, tracing, whatever) outside of their node, then things are going to get messy in all sorts of ways.

I could be wrong but I reckon I've made my point of view pretty clear so I'll sit back and wait to see what other people think.
Lord Ben
If your cyberleg is a wireless device though then it's also a node. A "node" isn't a complete network within a company.

I think the RAW back me up. But that doesn't mean the designers were doing some thinking like you when writing it.

Fortune
I'm with knasser on this one.
Lord Ben
So how do you guys determine the system/firewall rating of something you want to hack into?
Lord Ben
You'd also never be able to spoof commands to a drone because in order to do that you need to do a matrix pereption and ask for the ID on the guy giving the orders. The way you play it you'd need to hack into his commlink before you could perform a matrix perception in order to spoof him. But by then you already have access to his commlink and can just send the orders yourself.
Jaid
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
You'd also never be able to spoof commands to a drone because in order to do that you need to do a matrix pereption and ask for the ID on the guy giving the orders. The way you play it you'd need to hack into his commlink before you could perform a matrix perception in order to spoof him. But by then you already have access to his commlink and can just send the orders yourself.

see, now this is at least a semi-valid point, maybe even better (too lazy to look up anything).

but i tend to agree overall with knasser as well... i would say you can do a perception test on their node (which he has indicated) but you cannot do a perception test on what is within a given node unless you are also within that given node. if someone has their persona sitting inside their commlink's node, then the only way you can see what's in their node is if you are also in their node (note that, with certain settings turned on, i would allow a group of commlinks to function as a single node in much the way i would be inclined to treat a PAN as overall a single node).

as far as being able to spoof, first off you can always sniffer him (you'll probably have to, in fact, because otherwise how do you know who's controlling the drone in the first place?), and you could get his 'ID' simply by examining his home node.
kzt
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
So here is what I thought of doing:
Building has wireless that is pretty much kept inside the building itself. Done by reduced range, not special paint.

High gain directional antennas still work just fine if a weak signal leaks out. And if the network on the inside is connected to the net you can always attack it from the outside. Which is going to be the case unless you explicitly block connectivity for all wireless. Once an attacker owns the system inside the building they can do whatever they want.

There really doesn't seem a way in SR4 to have a wireless network that is even vaguely secure due to the decryption idiocy. Of course, this also means that you can't trust anything that you receive electronically, as the only way to authenticate anything electronically requires encryption that is effectively unbreakable.
Lord Ben
What page are high gain directional antennas on? I can't find them.
Kesslan
Thats why you encrypt encrypted data. By that I mean you use probably idealy a custom cypher to encode a message into an otherwise ordinary looking piece of data/mail and then encrypt that using computer encryption.

Technically speaking you couldnt just run an ordinary decrypt program on that, since the real key isnt a computerized encryption. But that sort of debate is really kinda getting off topic.

Realy your best bet to allow the place to be 'public' yet as secure as possible, is yes, to
a) Limit the transmission range of the network so that it's only within the building.
b) Put in the best firewall and OS your GM will allow
c) Toss in some nice ICE and one or two good agents that specifically try to track down hackers.
d) Setup the system to send an alert to your comlink the moment it even thinks something is wrong. Also setup your comlink to alert you if it doesnt recieve a notice from the system within a specific time period. That way an enemy hacker cant just prevent the system from sending the notification without there being at least some chance you'll notice something is amiss.

I mean otherwise so what if a hacker type is sitting in your bar? Maybe he's just another runner stopping by for a brew with some friends. It's generally a bad idea to simply attack the guy when he isnt actually even thinking about doing anything malicious to your own system. By all means though setup some stuff to go try to smash anyone who tries to access private parts of the system without proper identification (Though I wouldnt suggest a blackhammer here, otherwise you could wind up frying some one's brain who hasnt -really- done anything illegal)
Kesslan
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
What page are high gain directional antennas on? I can't find them.

I think he's refering to RL equipment as opposed to something you'll find in the basic SR book. Its the sort of thing I'd more expect out of the as yet to come out expanded matrix rule book.
kzt
QUOTE (Kesslan)
I think he's refering to RL equipment as opposed to something you'll find in the basic SR book. Its the sort of thing I'd more expect out of the as yet to come out expanded matrix rule book.

Yep. It's very sophisticated piece of tightly controlled equipment. Well, as long as you control the worlds supply of Pringles potato chips, so as to keep their cans out of the hands of evildoers, it's tightly controlled. . .

How to make a Pringles can into a high gain Directional Antenna
Kesslan
Aye, if your wanting to get really indepth with how wireless security would work in 2070 you simply have to look at the realities of todays modern wireless world. Because while the encryption bases, data flows etc all change drastically. The basics of security will allways remain the same. What's possible IRL with wireless would be just as possible with wireless in the Matrix. Just you also have AIs, Agents, and all sorts of ultra high end software etc that doenst exist yet. I say yet because just look at the advancements in computer AI since the 1980's.
kzt
QUOTE (Kesslan)
Aye, if your wanting to get really indepth with how wireless security would work in 2070 you simply have to look at the realities of todays modern wireless world. Because while the encryption bases, data flows etc all change drastically. The basics of security will allways remain the same. What's possible IRL with wireless would be just as possible with wireless in the Matrix. Just you also have AIs, Agents, and all sorts of ultra high end software etc that doenst exist yet. I say yet because just look at the advancements in computer AI since the 1980's.

I don't get what you are trying to say. And if you confine AI to the way that SR uses (What is called strong AI) there has been about zero progress since 1980. Which is why there is also about zero funding, at least compared to the glory days in the 80s. sarcastic.gif
Lord Ben
For game balance though a lot of possible stuff can't be used in SR. You might disagree, but that's another thread. Otherwise it can get super silly.

Nobody has still said any thing from the book that counters what I'm trying to do...
Kesslan
Actually Kzt there has been progress. It's an on going development in your average FPS. It's a very basic form of AI but it is AI none the less.

And to Lord Ben, actually there has been the somewhat counter to what the agent could actually do. I agree with the earlier postings that you cant actually see what programs a given comlink is running necessarily unless that comlink gets hacked into perhaps. I mean while a weapon icon very likely represents a combat program. You dont actually know what that icon really DOES untill it gets used. I mean it could be just a 'normal' attack program or it could be a blackhammer.

I mean pretty much other than maxing out your firewall/OS and poping in a few agents setup to check stuff defensively, which means they arnt going to see what all the nice programs some one has on their comlink becuase they dont have access to do so (Though obviously they could tell if some one ran that program on the wireless node their in). There isnt a whole lot more you -can- do as far as I know that's actualy covered by the basic rule book. Which is why I suggested you read up on RL wireless security and see if you can figgure out something else that might work and suggest it to the GM.

Afterall two people could easily be duking it out in your bar via the matrix and untill one guy suddenly turns into a gurgling mass you wouldnt ever know it because the combat is happening purely between their two comlinks and has nothing at all to do with your own.
Marmot
Book seems to agree with you, Lord B.

May your den of sinful pleasures and iniquity serve you long and well and be forever free of malicious hackers or technomancers (at least until they get that new damn Matrix book).
kzt
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
For game balance though a lot of possible stuff can't be used in SR. You might disagree, but that's another thread. Otherwise it can get super silly.

Nobody has still said any thing from the book that counters what I'm trying to do...

Unless the GM is going to fiat that "Nobody can crack your system" it's going to be cracked in short order by anyone who wants it. From the outside. The same mechanics that allow a PC to hack a wealthy corps system work against you here. The minimum range with signal 0 is 3 meters, but then you can't be trying to look at devices inside the place. So you are at 40 meters with signal 1. So at late one night I land a fly-spy on the sign over your place and probe while you sleep. Six hours later (unless I have a really bad day) I own the system.

And since I don't actually access the node until I enter as admin it doesn't seem like you can use an agent running matrix perception to spot it prior to entering as admin, at which point the agent gets nuked.

In SR 4 you can't use wireless or connect to the net any system that doesn't want to have a surplus of anonymous volunteer system admins. You also have to vigorously protect the cabling to prevent anyone from getting physical access to an active port.

I'd tend to suggest that this is insane, YMMV.
Kesslan
Well in such a case wouldnt the ICE/Agents help any? I mean at that point your directly accessing the system itself. And something that's setup to constantly watch out for intrusions should infact then at least have some chance of noticing your attempts (Even if you dont necessarily fail at them) should it not?

I mean personally the only way around some of this stuff that I could see would maybe having certain settings actually imbeded in the firmware so you couldnt change them without having direct access to the hardware itself.
Marmot
Until they gave the ICE their teeth back, the tech-kids will be riding roughshod all over all but the most convoluted of Matrix security setups.

Seriously, can we have our cascading glaciers and psychotropic black IC back?
Kesslan
I'm sure we will have that see a comeback in the advanced matrix rulebook. Even in SR3 most of that stuff is in the Matrix book itself. I see no reason why SR4 would be any different.

Though I must say part of me does wish that they'd waited on releasing SR4 abit longer untill they actually had the full set of core rule books out (Main book, Arsenal, Street Magic etc). Though given the realities of todays RPG markets I can understand perfectly well why they didnt.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
You'd also never be able to spoof commands to a drone because in order to do that you need to do a matrix pereption and ask for the ID on the guy giving the orders. The way you play it you'd need to hack into his commlink before you could perform a matrix perception in order to spoof him. But by then you already have access to his commlink and can just send the orders yourself.

You can get the acess ID by sniffing packets coming from and to a persona. But you can not determine the programs running this way.
knasser
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Nobody has still said any thing from the book that counters what I'm trying to do...


Well everything that I said has been grounded in what's given us in the book and an exploration of what your interpretation would mean and the consequences of it. You're not here asking for our opinions on whether or not this is possible, LB. You've already got that from several of us and it's a 'no.' You've already made your mind up what answer you want and you're just pushing for people to approve it. I don't know why - possibly so that you can try and get your GM to approve it in your game. If your GM has come from previous editions then he'll almost certainly disallow it because what you want was explicitly not the case in editions 1-3.

If you're insistent that you want to see the book say that you can't do this before you'll accept our opinions, then a quick skim through the Wireless World chapters comes up with a few bits and pieces that strongly support the case that everything in the matrix takes place in a node.

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 229)
In VR, you “exist” wherever your persona is within the Matrix.
You’ll start off in the virtual representation of your own com-
mlink/terminal and from there “move” to other nodes. Physical
distance is meaningless within the Matrix—it’s all a matter of
commline connections, available memory, switching systems, and
transmission rates, not actual meters and kilometers. Getting to a
node on the other side of the world is an instantaneous affair.


QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 232)
SIMULTANEOUS COMBAT
IN MULTIPLE NODES
    It is possible that an unfor-
tunate hacker who is accessing
multiple nodes simultaneously
may come under attack in differ-
ent nodes at once. In this case,
the hacker merely rolls Initiative
once—it applies for all concurrent
combats. The hacker can also only


As I said, your GM may interpret differently, but the book implies that everything takes place within nodes. As with previous editions, there is no "in-between" space. Travel is instantaneous. That's my considered opinion which you asked for.

QUOTE (Marmot)
Seriously, can we have our cascading glaciers and psychotropic black IC back?


Did it ever go away?

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 223)
    Not all networks are configured as mesh
networks—many corporate systems, in fact,
retain a traditional tiered network structure. In
a tiered structure, some systems can only be
accessed through another system first, with
the most secure systems hiding behind several
layers of security. These networks employ a
wide variety of tricks to limit access, including
high-security traffic chokepoints or vanishing,
teleporting, secret trap-door, or one-way ac-
cess nodes. Some of these systems and net-
works are only accessible from private grids or
are entirely isolated from the Matrix.


Lord Ben
"going to" another node doesn't have to mean logging in though. It could just mean bringing up their online profile, or making a phone call.
Lord Ben
I'm not looking for people to agree with me here, I'm trying to iron out questions in the game. The bar itself is safe and fine, I'm not worried about that. It's just a good example for staging a rules question. I don't just play SR, I've ran it too and plan on doing it in the future at some point I'm sure. Just a friendly rules discussion is all.

From the same section you quoted.

QUOTE
Halfway through her third victory, she finds a clue in the database that
points to a file in a corporate network. She doesn’t want to waste time, so she fires up a link to the network and starts probing it for weaknesses. She can tell it’ll be a long night, so she also connects to her kitchen at home and instructs it to prepare dinner. With a System rating of 6, Netcat can access 12 nodes this way simultaneously.


So if she has the node she's hacking "up" and it counts against her limit then her persona is on the node right? So it could be detected and analyzed to find out that the persona accessing the node is running exploit?
Jaid
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
QUOTE
Halfway through her third victory, she finds a clue in the database that
points to a file in a corporate network. She doesn’t want to waste time, so she fires up a link to the network and starts probing it for weaknesses. She can tell it’ll be a long night, so she also connects to her kitchen at home and instructs it to prepare dinner. With a System rating of 6, Netcat can access 12 nodes this way simultaneously.


So if she has the node she's hacking "up" and it counts against her limit then her persona is on the node right? So it could be detected and analyzed to find out that the persona accessing the node is running exploit?

no. she's subscribed to the node. this does not mean she's on the node, any more than subscribing to a drone forces you to keep a copy of your persona in that node.
Lord Ben
She's subscribed to the network she's hacking?
Serbitar
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Dec 12 2006, 05:07 PM)
"going to" another  node doesn't have to mean logging in though.  It could just mean bringing up their online profile, or making a phone call.

You do this by loggin on with a kind of anonymous account. The "login" procedure is the protocol handshake. In SR4 this is represented by you "entering the node" (if you want) in VR.

If the system does not allow a handshake by said protocol, you will have to hack it.

Remember that "being in a node" mereley means that your comlink is interacting in some way with said node. Technically speaking, you are in every node that you subscribed to, and you are subscribed to every node you are in, because the node has your access ID and the right to contact you.

"Being in a node" mereley means that you interact with that node (after the login or protocoll handshake). Physically your programs are always running on your comlink, so interaction is the only way to define "being somewhere". Thats also why you can be in several nodes at the same time, because you can maintan a connection (or interaction) with all of them at the same time.
ixombie
If you're probing the target, you're not logged onto the node, you're sending it stuff and seeing how it reacts, or sniffing incoming traffic, or whatever to find an exploit. There are currently no rules for finding people who are probing your node - the only way to keep a node secure from exploitation is to keep it on a restricted network that can't be accessed from outside your facility. That, or run an ultravoilet node indifferent.gif

There is no subscribing when you hack. You don't subscribe to someone else's node, they have to add you to the subscription list. You could add yourself to the subscriber list if you gained high enough access of course, but all that would mean is you can use computer + prog to do stuff on that system, since you become an authorized user (assuming you got yourself an account rather than hacked on the fly).
Serbitar
QUOTE (ixombie @ Dec 12 2006, 07:44 PM)
If you're probing the target, you're not logged onto the node, you're sending it stuff and seeing how it reacts, or sniffing incoming traffic, or whatever to find an exploit.  There are currently no rules for finding people who are probing your node - the only way to keep a node secure from exploitation is to keep it on a restricted network that can't be accessed from outside your facility.  That, or run an ultravoilet node indifferent.gif 

There is no subscribing when you hack.  You don't subscribe to someone else's node, they have to add you to the subscription list.  You could add yourself to the subscriber list if you gained high enough access of course, but all that would mean is you can use computer + prog to do stuff on that system, since you become an authorized user (assuming you got yourself an account rather than hacked on the fly).

You did not do the handshake when you probe a node. You are only sending packets and see what it answers. So you are not "in" the node. You did not establish a real connection.
By bringing up someones profile or read his homepage you did establish a connection and you are in his node (with very low access right, mabe not even enough to get visual VR information).

You are subscribing to nodes that you are in. They count toward your subscription limit. See subscribing rules p. 212.

QUOTE ("SR4 p.212")

[...] but the number of nodes, agents and drines that a persona may actively subscribe to (access) at any one time [...]


Subscribing = accessing = interacting = you being there (or it being in your node)
Lord Ben
However in the example I quoted from the hacker specifically does access the node she's hacking. If she's accessing it then her persona is in it. And if her persona is in it then she can be analyzed.

Probing the target doesn't give the firewall a roll until the end. But it doesn't mean a hacker/drone specifically searching for personas on the node and analyzing them to see if they're running exploit woudln't work.

You guys are great at describing the behind the scenes of how you think it's working, but use some book references or something.
Serbitar
QUOTE (knasser @ Dec 11 2006, 09:04 PM)
I'm not likely to budge on that one as it makes sense to me (no clairvoyance in the matrix), unless someone comes up with a compelling argument otherwise (Serbitar, probably.  sarcastic.gif ) But it might be interesting to think what interaction between two nodes looks like. If there is a direct connection between the commlinks of hacker and victim (Comm A and Comm B) then short of the aforementioned sniffing test, I don't see how anyone else can observe the interaction in VR. If there were not a direct interaction between the two nodes then perhaps it would be different. Let us say that both commlinks are subscribed to your club's node. In this case you might be able to witness, sitting in the clubs node, the persona from Comm A sitting outside the node to Comm B, hacking at it with sword, chanting incantations or whathaveyou. In that case, you would be allowed your perception test.

In a sufficently complex system you can always come up with an explanation for everything.
You already gave one yourself by saying that the interaction is not peer to peer, but peer to node to peer.

This phenomenon is seen very often in nowadays computer games. The chat rooms are the nodes where you can find your gaming partner. As long as you are there, you are visible to others, but once you join the game you vanish from the node and go into peer to peer connection.

In the case of SR4 matrix combat you can not leave the node while battling the IC, because the IC is run on the node. You are effectively interacting with the node by attacking the program.
The difference with battling a persona (or agent) that is run by another node, but is "in" the node you are in is, that you are not necessarily interacting with the node you "met" the other persona in, when attacking this persona. So a fight between you and the persona need not actually take place in the node. It does not really need a place. Actually you are even in your or your opponents node because you are both interacting with each other.

Another explanation could look like this: Your data trail does not go directly from your node to the other guys node. This is only the case when you have a real direct connection without any relay nodes. If you have relay nodes, in every one of them your datatrail can be intercepted and "inspected" to find out what you are doing at the moment.

This could also serve as a workaround for the "battle nowhere problem" mentioned above. You could say that attacks are not really a direct interaction with the other node but more a sending of code through an existing link, in this case the connection of both personae to the node they are connected to (which is equivalent to both being "in" the node).

But this also means that a real protocol connection like a vocal interaciton of two personae in a node (both run by other nodes) can not really be observed as it is a peer to peer connection of both.

Conclusions:

Personae connected to a node (who are thus "in" the node) can observe:
- interactions of other personae with the node
- interactions of personae run by the node with anything (even outside nodes)
- "protocol abuse" interactions (cybercombat) of two different personae "in" the node

What you can not observe:
- interactions (not protocol abuse) of two persona "in" the node (who are both run by other nods)
(because they are effectively in each others node and also in the node in question, but are sending their interactions through their separate connection)

Note: I made this on the fly. There might be a number of errors or inconsistencies in it. And I am no internet protocal specialist, but merely a layperson.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Dec 12 2006, 08:14 PM)
However in the example I quoted from the hacker specifically does access the node she's hacking.  If she's accessing it then her persona is in it.  And if her persona is in it then she can be analyzed. 

Probing the target doesn't give the firewall a roll until the end.  But it doesn't mean a hacker/drone specifically searching for personas on the node and analyzing them to see if they're running exploit woudln't work.

You guys are great at describing the behind the scenes of how you think it's working, but use some book references or something.

I would say that only her ACTIONS can be analyzed. Only the programs she is using. Not the ones she is running. To do that you would have to hack her node.

BTW: There ARE no book references. The SR4 system is only bones without flesh at the moment.
Most of the stuff I am saying here I am making up as I speak by using a mix of realism, plausibility, balancing and my own ideas. You will not find such technical stuff in the SR4 core book. Synner even mentioned once that he would not like to have such technical stuff in a an extension book (if I remember correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong). And I think that is OK, because you have to stop somewhere.

The only thing you need to do in an extension book is to explain things a little more, but not introduce stuff that needs a degree in information technology to understand.


All in all I think this is a great thread to focus my own view of the matrix. By writing my couple of post here I learned a lot. Even if half o it is nonsense.
Lord Ben
Well, there ARE book references. Just not ones that go against my position... smile.gif

They overhauled the matrix and made it totally different than in the past. Then they wrote the rules and didn't give out many examples and the ones they did give out are incomplete at best and serve mostly to describe what's happening instead of give hard and fast rules examples.

However from what I gather you wouldn't need to hack into someones commlink or log into the same "node" as them to do a matrix perception.

Two people meet in the desert with commlinks. One wants to find out the other guys name. How do you find it out? Personally I think you're displaying your various ARO's and DOT's to everyone and people can bring that information up if they're within range of you. I don't think I need to log into his commlink to look at the ARO's and DOT's. Yet looking at them is exactly what you do in a matrix perception. Only you're running an analyze program to try and make sense of what you're seeing.
kzt
QUOTE (Lord Ben)

Two people meet in the desert with commlinks. One wants to find out the other guys name. How do you find it out?

I'd probably just ask him. But that's me. biggrin.gif
Serbitar
Simple questions:

How do you think the ARO information gets from commlink A to commlink B if not via an established connection?

What is the difference between "being in" a node and "having an established connection" with this node?

If you are in active mode, you are establishing this connection per default. If you are in passive or in hidden mode, you dont.
This connection is effectively a very low rights access, you are only allowed to send information, thats it, but you are accessing the other node nonetheless.

How do you think you would get information from somebody that is not actively sending it to you? The only way is to intercept him sending this data to somebody else. But if he does not send the data, there is no way to get it, except hacking his system and taking it.
Jaid
[edit] gah, beaten to the punch by serbitar! [/edit]

sure, but if their node isn't actively sending that information out to all (read: allowing anyone and everyone access to their node) then how exactly is it getting to you? the other node has to explicitly send it to you in order for you to be able to see it. if the other node does not explicitly choose to send that information to you, then you get precisely nothing, unless you can get inside it.

this is not like normal vision, where light bounces off of objects whether they want it or not, and allows you to see them whether they want it or not. think of it instead as if everyone is like a projected hologram. they project what they want, and nothing else. you can't see something unless they send it out. this is what the matrix is like... each node can choose to project (or not to project) information about itself. if you want more information than what the holograph is telling you about the person, you must go to where the person is and look at them; that is, enter the same node as them.

if you can see me from outside my node, then that means it is unsafe to own any kind of illegal software, ever, because any law enforcement can just look at your commlink, and perceive that you posess illegal software, and just arrest you on the spot. the *only* way for anyone to be able to reasonably travel around with illegal programs in their possession is if the stuff that is inside your node is not generally visible to those outside your node.
Lord Ben
Personally I'd just use overlapping signal ranges as the boundry.

If being able to hack into any wireless connection regardless of subscription, access lists, hidden mode, etc isn't overpowering then I don't think a perception roll is horrible either.

Matrix perception would only allow you to see programs that are running, not just any program on the commlink. You'd only run exploit while hacking. And it's not like there is no defense to it, you still have a stealth program.
Lord Ben
Think of it a different way. Your program is what's interacting with the Matrix and if that program is out there doing it's thing then people doing matrix perception can notice the program running.

If we're not exchanging data then we can't hack each other. If we ARE exchanging data we can analyze each other. I see nothing in the book that allows the exploit program to run against another node where the analyze program could not run against that node.
Jaid
everything on your commlink is represented visually in VR and, presumably, in AR. doesn't matter what it is, it is there.

and like i said, if you allow people to view other people's nodes from outside, you end up with the 'star pulling people over because they have visible illegal programs running.

and i don't understand why you can't get the fact that someone might be able to send limited (or even false) data.

if you want to know what someone is running, you must be able to see their persona. if they are not broadcasting their persona, you cannot see it, because there is nothing to see.

so sure, if someone walks in to your bar, and sends their persona out to socialise in your bar's node, then yeah you can see that and make a matrix perception test. but if they sit around in their own node probing the target (or simply leave something there which extends your signal... you know, like a RFID, which costs next to nothing, and probe from elsewhere) you cannot detect them. there is no way to detect someone who is probing the target until they attempt to log on to the node. or at least, not yet... perhaps there will be something in unwired. until then, there is no way to do it.
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