I get the limited and false data. It's called the stealth program and the matrix perception handles it quite nicely.

I can't say for sure I'm right. But nothing in the rules that people have quoted says that yet. I'm perfectly willing to change my views if some dev or some quote from the book says you can only do matrix perception tests on ARO's if you're logged into them.

It doesn't help that whoever wrote the book didn't give well defined terms. I personally think that "accessing a node" can mean just bringing it up on your screen to do a matrix perception test on it. It doesn't mean you "have access" to it.

If I sit down on a PC and start typing away I've "accessed" the system. But it doesn't mean I can actually log in. However I could tell what OS it's using, what the make/model is, etc.

I think what he means is you'd be sitting at that login screen and your at least physically trying to do something to it. From that longin screen you can at least guess what OS it is (and normally its' very easy to tell).

HOWEVER. The thing I think Lord Ben is missing is the fact that ok, using that same analogy you cannot tell the following:

What programs that computer might verywell at that moment be running because some other user is logged into it. It is also quite possible to have multiple windows accounts running on a machine at the same time.

You cannot tell what version the OS is even. Sure you can tell oh! It's Windows XP! But is it SP1? SP2? What other security upgrades does it have/not have etc? You cant tell without further access to the system. You cant even tell who else is using that machine without further access.

It works the exact same way with comlinks. You cant tell what programs another person has simply by looking at the 'login screen' of their comlink. Sure maybe youc an pull up some basic data on them like you'd get on a webpage. But you cant do anythign else than that without actual user access. And to do that you have to effectively 'login' or in this case hack into their comlink etc.

Actually while I thought of it I figgured I'd best post this analogy to 'seeing' people's icons etc.

Immagine you are looking a book case. On all the shelves there are all sorts of books. You can tell what the basic subject of that book -supposedly- is, by looking at the spine and reading the information prestented there. Some, however might not have anythign written on the spine. This could be some one running under 'hidden mode' in a way. You can tell the book is there, but without further proding you cant tell anything else at all.

Now lets say I take an interest in 'Bixby the BTL using clown'. Odd title, odd looking persona. Hmm. lets see what this 'Bixby' is all about. So I reach to the bookshelf and pull down the book. I then look at the cover.

The cover would be the 'publicly available' information. Currently that is what i"m looking at but i cant actually yet see the actual interior of that book (THe programs etc). It may even have a picture of Bixby holding a hammer, but I dont know if this is just a prop, or an actual weapon Bixby has untill I dig deeper. And to do that I have to open the book and read the actual pages.

But wait! The book has a lock on it like a diary. WIthout the key (access rights) I cannot access the contents of this book. I can hold the book, i can examine it, and I can read what is on the outside, but I cannot read whats inside the book. Wel.. I have no key, so what else can I do? WEll I can try to break the lock (Hack in)! Excellent!

So now I take my trusty lockpick (Hacking program) apply it to the lock, and bingo! It easily pops off (Hacking attempt successful, you are now on the node with full access rights)

Now I can read through Bixby's entire file, I can see everything inside that is written about him, what programs he has, and hey look, part of the book is hollow, this Bixy person keeps a wad of cash in the hollow section of the book. YOINK! Mine now sucker! I then close the book, lock it back up, put it back on teh shelf and take off money in hand. Bixby however, since I'm such a great hacker, wont know the money is gone untill he actually checks the contents of the book himself.

EDIT: ALternatively Bixby could show up right as I'm poking through his book (I got spotted by the owner, agent what ever) and suddenly he and a friend attack me. Oh drek! Well I can still tak ethe money and run, but now people know some one's stolen Bixby's money and alarms are going off everywhere etc.

@Ben: It's mildly annoying that you keep saying the book doesn't contradict your position when I've posted two direct quotes that appear to say that everything that happens in the matrix happens within a node. I can even dig out more:

Sure, but I think accessing the node can mean two different things. When you're walking down the street you don't log into the node for 5th street, then log into the node for 6th street, etc. You're just "online" using your access ID, etc. After all, if you're not "in the matrix" you're not going to get any messages or calls from teammates unless your signals overlap.

So if you're "online" and I'm "online" we'd be able to see each other along with matrix perceptions and all that.

You could view it that way. But I perfer to think of it as one all encompassing area where you can interact with lots of AR objects you could normally see. You could look at it my way or you could try to figure out as the DM who on the street is on what service provider, link their giant network of nodes all together and map out the matrix infrastructure.

When they say the matrix is complex and overlapping I read that as "you can all see each others ARO's, etc when you're online but how it actually works is not worth getting into". Others may choose to read it as we need to figure out which of the thousands of ISP's you're logged in through and hack into that ISP to make a matrix perception test on a person.

SR4 hacking is complex enough, boiling it down to the simplest explanation is the easiest way to run and play.