 Matrix realistic? |
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 Dec 12 2006, 10:01 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517  |
I have an interesting question for people.
How many people here think that Shadowrun has a realistic computer internet system? I mean I realize that alot of people keep it because it sounds cool and all. But how many people actually think that computers will ever really work that way?? I'm not saying if it is a fun system or not. I'm not asking if people think that it represents well the cyberpunk novels written by the computer illiterate. I'm asking if anyone actually thinks that Cybercombat and all that stuff ACTUALLY makes sense. I know that wireless is actually around now BTW. I'm using it. If so what parts make sense and what parts don't. |
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Dec 12 2006, 10:18 AM
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#2
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the SR4 rules are more realistic then any previous edition.
stuff like personas, proactive defensive programs (IC) and more are not in any way realistic (yet). there are work done on agent, and they are features with the agents found in SR. however, agents rely on, if not a machine, then atleast a computing monoculture. but with the developments in virtual machines and similar it may well be that a agent will be a virtual machine traveling the net. hell, i have long suspected that entertainment files in SR are not dumb files (MP3, MPEG4, DOC) but data wrapped in a program somehow. in any case, the SR4 matrix rules have moved beyond the matrix that gibson envisioned in his sprawl trilogy. way beyond in many ways. |
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Dec 12 2006, 10:28 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
70 years ago most people would say things like computers or the internet aren't realistic, so who are we to say the SR matrix is unrealistic.
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Dec 12 2006, 10:42 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,453 |
Network security is probably unrealistically weak. Real world hacking with anything but "brute force" attempts that only work on systems where the admins didn't know what they were doing take quite a long time and often require some sort of social networking that allow you to gain or guess passwords.
There's also some doubt whether it is possible to have that much bandwidth over wireless connection - there's a risk that we will hit limitations imposed by the laws of physics before we reach that - but who knows how wireless technology develops in the future... However, I think it is very much possible that we will see Augmented Reality or the equivalent in the future - probably much earlier than in the SR timeline, too. |
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Dec 12 2006, 11:01 AM
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#5
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
that depends on how much data AR and VR use. there used to be a standard called UMS or universal matrix standard. basically a library of animations, sounds and similar that was used to present the matrix. then came VR2.0 with its sculpted systems that had custom stuff. there is also the human brain to factor in. often you do not need neon tiger detailed down to the pixel. it may well be that instead the simsense can trigger the brain to think about neon, tiger and similar, and the brain will create the experiences itself. in some ways thats how written text or speech works. as long as we both understand the same language, i do not have to provide a image of said tiger, i just have to describe it using words and you will get a mental image of it. hell, look at vector based graphics. or you average web page. rather then define every last pixel, one use codes to define where lines and similar start, end and how they are to be reshaped. the software that reads the file then use that to generate a image based on said codes. as long as all programs interpret the codes the same way, you get the same image. one may say that a sculpted system use the same UMS codes in the background, but present a different interpretation of them. that may explain the conflict rules between a sculpted system and a reality filter in older SR rules. |
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Dec 12 2006, 12:12 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Latency is also an issue. At the VR high speed, high ping should be as much worse as it is in an online game. And that, theoretically, can't be fixed. Your data can't travel faster than the speed of light.
Matrix combat isn't that unrealistic because it's about finding weaknesses in the targeted program/system to crash it (which is how you'd do today to crash a program). It's just that the matrix representation makes it look like combat, which is far better for player enjoyment. Overall, the matrix security and the hacking methods shares a lot with today's network security. The big difference is that hacking is easier in shadowrun than in today's world (for example encryption can be broken easily) but that's not absurd and that could happen. The whole idea of persona that travel in nodes, as opposed to having just the data travelling between your node and the remote node, is a big difference and may not be totally realistic. But it can't be avoided in a cyberpunk setting. |
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Dec 12 2006, 02:07 PM
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#7
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
yes, it is perfectly realistic that instead of a smooth command-line interface or window-browsing we'll resort to an impossibly clunky VR system that can kill you if you aren't careful. It is also perfectly realistic that hub-topology broadcast networks will give way to trap-maze topology reverse-token networks. :please:
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Dec 12 2006, 02:55 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I think the only aspect that is not realistic is the way that security works. Security in real life is not about IC, but the race to continously fix exploits.
In real life matrix security has 0 to do with processor power. But I think the SR4 matrix fluff concept is very well done. |
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Dec 12 2006, 03:12 PM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hee hee hee hee hoo hoo ho ho ho ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! the SR4 Matrix is a bit better than the SR1-3 Matrix, but overall, don't look to SR for realistic computing.
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Dec 12 2006, 03:15 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 271 Joined: 18-April 06 Member No.: 8,481 |
In 2070, we'll see whether it's realistic... Just be patient :P
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Dec 12 2006, 03:36 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Basically....what mfb said. Sure there is going to be some fabulous advances over the intervining decades. But there are some fundamental problems with SR's computing that require wild physics handwaving.
P.S. In 2070 I'd be 102 years old. I'd love to be able rationally evaluate the difference between SR's computer systems and 70's contemporary computing, even if it ment being wrong not expecting SR to be within a sniff of it. :P |
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Dec 12 2006, 03:50 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Chicago, IL Member No.: 10,193 |
It's too early for me to look stuff up in the book, but I'm pretty sure the book says that they had to make security less realistic so that hackers could breach security in minutes or seconds instead of months or weeks. |
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Dec 12 2006, 04:49 PM
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#13
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
im sure that if they could kill you using software and get away with it, they would invest in IC rather then fixing buffer overflow errors (99% of the security problems come from those. and yes, i made that statistic up on the spot)... |
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Dec 12 2006, 04:49 PM
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#14
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
whoa, double post because of a database connect error followed up by a mail error...
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Dec 12 2006, 04:51 PM
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#15
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thats more or less what they said about encryption in the faq... |
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Dec 12 2006, 04:53 PM
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#16
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thats what you get when management get mixed up in the decisions best left to the IT department... or in other words, blame it on crash 1.0 and the corp led rebuilding of the net... |
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Dec 12 2006, 06:19 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Ha! I'll only be 97! To be fair, I fully expect 97 to be the new 67 in 2070. |
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Dec 12 2006, 06:20 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 271 Joined: 18-April 06 Member No.: 8,481 |
Actually, the matrix wasn't created by the marketing ghouls, it was invented in response to an uber mega virus. The only way to fight it was to eschew traditional interfaces in favor of ASIST which let the deckers react at the speed of thought instead of the speed of their fingers.
I think the reason that ASIST became the standard is that it's a 100% intuitive way for people to integrate computers into their lives. They don't need to learn an OS, or really anything at all. They just point at what they want, walk over to the safe where secure data is stored, etc... |
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Dec 12 2006, 06:26 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Oh yeah, that's why I just hold my nose and look the other way when dealing with the rules. Because this is one of those cases where Realism™ would suck royally.
Maybe, I would guess 87 as closer to the new 67. I imagine that it is reasonably possible that I'll make it to 102, I had 2 grandparents live into their 80's. However However their functioning level, physical and mental, for the last 2 to 3 years of their lives is why I through in the qualifier about being able to evaluate. ;) |
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Dec 12 2006, 07:49 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Actually it is absurd. You can postulate quantum computers that break some public key systems (but not all) but assuming that they can be run an a handheld takes some doing. Anyway, even with that, it doesn't allow you to attack symmetric key systems (like AES) very effectively. Even throwing absurd computing power at at you can't break a 256 bit system in less than geologic time. Somewhere I have the spreadsheet, but if you assume computers are a trillion times faster each, with 1024 dedicated crypto processors on each of 1024 processors with 1024 nodes attacking you can break it in a mere 23,000,000 years. It's 8*10^45 years if you go to 512 bit keys. Assuming you do the keys right, which is actually a huge assumption. Crappy keys makes attacks much more possible. And most people, left to their own devices, will choose crappy keys. |
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Dec 12 2006, 08:13 PM
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#21
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
This is assuming social engineering doesn't work.
I had a fellow at a partner company give me a password to their secure network without hesitation because I called up and stated I was from Y company. I could have gotten that company name info off the internet. Fortunately for him I AM a legitimate user, but a lot of folks are just like him, no sense of security. -karma |
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Dec 12 2006, 08:33 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I'd personally vastly prefer a hacking model that was based on social engineering like that, along with installing funky hardware or malware once you manage to gain access to areas you should never be allowed into. An example: Banking on Security |
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Dec 12 2006, 08:53 PM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm right there with you on that, kzt. i think such a system could be just as fun as the current ez-haxx0r model. though, to break from my usual stance, i'm basically okay with SR's ez-haxx0r model, even though it's hilariously unrealistic. SR4, especially, is pretty easy to handwave and make pretend.
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Dec 12 2006, 09:00 PM
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#24
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
There's nothing saying that social engineering approaches don't work in SR, though. Outside the players/GM not knowing what it is, of course. And the group that does know what it is but hasn't tried that approach yet, well, go try it out! ;)
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Dec 12 2006, 09:02 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, part of it would be doing things like gathering information on a human user so that you can create a list of possible passwords--combinations of birthdays, addresses, anniversaries, spouse/kids' names, etcetera. i'd definitely want to seem some hard rules in place before my players start running around guessing passwords willy-nilly.
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