 SOP for the meet. |
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 Dec 15 2006, 12:49 AM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 12-December 06 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 10,351  |
Generally we get asked by the fixer where we want to meet the J. I've always imagined it as a callback situation. J calls fixer. Fixer says he'll see what he can find. Fixer calls team. Team agrees to meet at such and such place at such and such time. Fixer calls J and informs him he's found a team willing to bite and to go to such and such place and such and such time. Even if we didn't get to set the original meeting place it would pretty much go the same way. If the J refuses to take a ride in the limo we generally walk away as something is usually fishy with that. Though there have been times.. actually quite a few times.. where we have met the J under less than ideal circumstances. Approached in a park.. Face gets kidnapped.. Random notes left tied to dead hanging cats... Approached in a hospital while recovering from a run gone wild... |
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Dec 15 2006, 12:53 AM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
It depends on a lot of things. It won't be the same if you're running in Seattle, Seoul, tamanrasset or Paris. Even then, it won't be the same if you're running for a megacorp or for lousy (but rich) Joe who's looking for his daughter. And it also won't be the same if he needs you badly, or if it's the other way around.
In somes cases, you'll meet someone who doesn't know anymore than what he's told to say (you might even deal with your fixer rather than Mr Johnson), in some cases you'll meet someone who knows everything there is to know about the case. In some cases you'll meet Mr Johnson face to face, in some cases you'll only meet his persona, or you might even meet a dead body (or something even weirder). If you consider all this, it's hard to give advices as to what to do. |
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Dec 15 2006, 12:57 AM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
That's because your GM probably has poor understanding of basic politics. In a logical gameworld, J has the power when it comes to setting up the meet. There are more runners than run. Unless you are the very best in the biz, you need the job more than Johnson needs you. The set up you proposed is for your security not his. But J has the power and will set things up with his security in mind. And if you balk and walk, he'll just call someone else. EDIT : Or most likely the fixer will recommend someone else to J. It's unlikely he even asked for you specifically. Pretty soon you'll be starving and next time you'll accept his conditions for the meet. That simple.
Poor reasoning. Your PCs wouldn't want to get in that ride unless they had no choice if the situation was reversed. And you are usually far more proficient in combat than him! Why would Johnson want to get in with you, the dangerous shadowrunners (and often irrational PCs)? The meet is more dangerous for him than you : You are the hardened criminals with little to lose, not him! He has every reason to want to maintain control and the leverage to make sure he does so. --- Just imagine what you would do if you were subcontracting part of the run and hiring gang members to run interference. How would you set up the meet? And if your prospective employees wanted to set the meet so they are in control? What would you do? |
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Dec 15 2006, 01:56 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Chicago, IL Member No.: 10,193 |
Yeah, I can't imagine ever being the ones in power in a meet. The only thing we control is our willingness to do the job or not. Everything else is merely lubricant toward that decision.
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Dec 15 2006, 04:17 AM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 12-December 06 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 10,351 |
I've always been under the impression that the Runners were the ones in charge of the meet. J wants a job done and he usually wants it hush hush and done as quickly and professionally as possible. He's not going to want to interview 5 different teams looking for the ideal one. He's just looking to get something dirty and underhanded done with and without a lot of fuss. I've never viewed the 6th age as having an overabundance of professional runners. I've always thought runners were a rare and hard to find commodity. I guess it's a different view on the game. |
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Dec 15 2006, 04:32 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Chicago, IL Member No.: 10,193 |
If that was true, you'd be setting your own price. I doubt any game works like that. |
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Dec 15 2006, 04:48 AM
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#32
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
That's what Shadowrunners already do.
If they set a price the J is unwilling to pay, the J walks. If they set a price he's willing to pay, arrangements are made and laws get broken. |
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Dec 15 2006, 04:56 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 12-December 06 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 10,351 |
Not really. You negotiate a price both can accept. Mr. J doesn't want too much money to be disappearing into the shadows and there ARE others that can be approached at the sacrifice of some time to save a few nuyen. The runners want to make enough yen to cover their expenses and a little extra to pay for some nice toys or put away into a safe spot Runners being too greedy and demanding high prices will mean that Mr. J will be motivated to take that extra time finding another team. There are other teams, they are just hard to find. It only takes an initial amount of time to find a team they can agree with and would most likely stick with that team for a while. The runners may get away with over charging the first time, but after that J is going to know that he doesn't want to be dealing with those runners. Heck, overcharging might even prompt the J to double-cross the runners. It may be cheaper to off the runners and they don't have to worry about getting their hands dirty in affairs other companies may look down upon. Do Johnsons want a team that doesn't pay attention to detail and security, or do they want a team that looks like they know what they are doing. |
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Dec 15 2006, 05:22 AM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Actually, it's well established in cannon (official adventure) and novels that typically the Johnson will state a price up front. Some haggling will result from that starting point but it's obvious that the Johnson has the balance of powers. The haggling is for the Runner's ego (And the player, from a metagame POV!). Many source have hinted that most Johnson just state a price somewhat below their budget to let the Runner haggle the price up a bit so they feel good but usually the Johnson ends up paying exactly what he wanted while the runner would always have wanted more (obviously). Considering the risks the runner face and the benefits of a successful run for J's employer, you could say that runners always get screwed but that's typical cyberpunk for you. With lifestyle upkeep piling up, Runners have some margin to refuse offers that are just outrageous (and they should, to avoid a rep as cheap runner) but in the end they have to accept plenty of jobs just to make end meet and not fall behind the SOTA. It's a common theme of Shadowrun. It's a Johnson's market.
I have no idea why you were under the impression that the runners were in charge of the meet with J because it is reflected nowhere in the SR litterature. No, J doesn't want interviews. He trusts the Fixer that referenced the runners, and if he send clowns it's the fixer who gets no return business. The Fixer is sorta the agent. And of course J will always want to control the meet for his own security and not concede initiative to his employers who are basically professional criminals. Unless of course Johnson is actually a one shot amateur but that's a different story. |
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Dec 15 2006, 05:32 AM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
We normally got a call suggesting the general nature of the job and some indication of the money. If we were interested the fixer would set up the meet. Typically the J choose a location. We could object, but seldom did. Having a J get whacked at a meet would adversely impact our professional rep, which is the only thing that keeps a runner team getting good jobs, so keeping he J safe is also quite important. Having him feel safe in environment that he is comfortable with also has him show up to offer the job.
If someone suggested something totally off the wall (like a mid-level in an abandoned parking garage in the barrens) we would be much more likely bail or do heavy surveillance and show up unpredictably and heavily loaded for bear. Once the actual meet goes down we typically would always all be there unless we needed someone to provide cover during the meet. The issues we wanted were, in order: 1) What generally does he want done. 2) General target parameters 3) Timeline 4) Target info 5) Payment details. We reserved the right to walk if we didn't like any of these, so we tried to keep from getting too deep before we generally agreed that we where willing to do the job. We only occasionally did bail in the meet. The only one I can remember was a job in Portland in 3rd edition. We never got to worrying about money or target details as 2/3rds of us decided that this just didn't feel good. And we was right. If the target wasn't what the description said we also could walk, but that was really rare. We more often did a renegotiation of the money, but that was rare too. |
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Dec 15 2006, 05:35 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Do it in AR. J. calls you, emails whatever data is necessary, including payment.
But here's a question: why would J. want to kill you in the first place? Is he sitting around the office saying to his coworkers, hey, you know what would be a gas? If we invited some deniable assets to a meet...and then wasted 'em! |
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Dec 15 2006, 05:37 AM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
As pointed out by me and many others. Runs are only one of the many ways a team of highly trained magical/cybered death machines can make a living. If runs pay less/are more dangerous then why do them?
As for procedures for the meet: Only the face goes. If you have someone presentable who can act as a close in guard, driver, etc then they can go as well. The rest of the team is in tactical gear nearby. This protects the team (they can't all be photographed, assensed, drugged, etc at the meet). Of crouse, you have to trust the face to be playing straight with you (giving out the full payment, etc) |
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Dec 15 2006, 05:40 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
This assumes that everyone you will meet in the shadows will be acting rationally. Also, you are assuming that the Johnson is actually there to offer you a job, and is simply not using the job offer in an attempt to arrest, kill, or kidnap you. This is typically one of the things your fixer is supposed to check out. Is the Johnson 'legit'? The break into the business for the first time Johnson is probably just as hard. After all, he might be a cop or some sort other sort of loony. |
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Dec 15 2006, 05:48 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Also the thing is, I dont see why a J would automatically refuse your request to meet at an alternative location. I mean it's one thing if you say:
A) Frag off! We aint meeting you anywere but where -we- say we gonna meet you! or.. B) Well Mr. Johnson, as much as are very much interested in being employed by you. Certain circumstances make your suggested meeting spot less than desirable for my associates and I. May we suggest instead to meet X. It's a very safe, secure and more importantly descrete location for us to meet at. Here are the directions on how to get there incase you wish to check out the location for yourself. Please let us know if this alternative location is acceptable. Signed: The big bad runners. |
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Dec 15 2006, 06:00 AM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
First of all, who said it doesn't pay? But it's not supposed to make you millionaire either. It only has to be a step up from mafia legbreaker or car thief and to dangle the hope of an eventual big score to be a rational choice for normal runner type. (That being said I'm not too cheap of a GM) Because secondly, who says any given runner has a better options? Yeah, I know a lot of player come up with background where the PC apparently chose this path. Then it's their problem when that choice seems illogical once they start playing. Hell yeah it's better living to be Corp elite trooper on some hot shot FRT than being street sam. But who says the street sam has any way of getting himself on such a team?! A standard runner background involve someone who either was always SINless or had a good career path ahead of him but it was violently broken due to various possible incidents. So inb the case of our street sam, either he never had any chance of getting on such an elite unit, or he was on it and was forced to leave. Either way, the corp are typically not fighting to recruit a Street Sam in their special units. Their roster is filled by loyal and endoctrined employees. So no, most runner don't have a lot of lucrative options ahead of them beyond running. Don't you get the feeling that elite mage, hacker and street sam are two dimes a dozens in SR? There's never any shortage of them to toss at the PC during adventures! And if you are not rare, you ar enot that valuable. Until perhaps you survive 30 runs or so and truly become elite. Until then, shut up you punk runner and pay up your dues! |
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Dec 15 2006, 06:07 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
It's totally insecure. You can't verify anyone is who they say they are. You have no idea whether you are talking to the actual J or some hacker having a good time, or if the conversation is being recorded. It would be kind of amusing if the J and the team were both talking to imposter's, but it would also suck. For someone to show up to meet with a band of hardened criminals shows more commitment. And it's much more likely to be secure. |
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Dec 15 2006, 06:33 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Bah nothing in SR is ever totally secure. Assume everything is a lie! A BLANTANT LIE!
Infact it's so much of a lie I think your just a figment of my immagination, but since this ammuses me I'm giong to offer you a job anyway! Yay! |
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Dec 15 2006, 06:52 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
If you like doing random acts of violence for no pay to amuse the SR4 version of the phone phreak, more power to you. AR meets are a great resource in this approach to life. |
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Dec 15 2006, 08:40 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
I wasnt being entirely serious. And AR meets to an extent seem very much par for the course in SR4 for runners. Just read the the story fluff of the main book where the team is meeting the J. THey all use AR to discuss stuff 'in house' even though the guy is right therein the room with them. |
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Dec 15 2006, 10:54 AM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 12-December 06 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 10,351 |
Here's probably where we go wrong then. I've never been one to read many SR novels. In fact I've only read two of them. One was really good. Wish I could remember it's name. Basically it's about a mage looking into the death of.. his father or friend or something, only to come across a spirit summoning. Another story line was about a retired Runner team that was now into .. some sort of dangerous motorcycle sport. The story actually had 4 story lines all going at the same time. 3 of the story lines kept criss-crossing between each other. With one story line seeing the aftermath of another. The 4th story-line was pretty much independent through-out the whole book and seemed completely out of place until the very very end. The 4th story line was all about a new Seattle Sewage clean-up worker... One that was in full body armor and carried very big guns! BTW: If anybody can tell me the name of that book I'd much appreciate it. Anyways.. onto topic. I've only read the 2 SR books and most my SR experience and knowledge is from SR2. We have only recently been introduced to SR4 (by recently I mean, like 2 weeks ago we got our hands on the main book). I don't know how much things have changed in between. So it may be that my group is slightly skewed on the setting details. Generally negotiations for prices do start with the J making an offer and we use that as a baseline. It should also be noted that we may consider our characters drek hot elite Runners. We've been playing the same characters for over 2 years and have accumulated several hundred Karma each (well not the whole team, but a lot of the team, one retired, thus creating the Wiz around the corner and 2 were slagged). In fact we've been discussing retiring these characters and creating new ones for the change over to SR4. |
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Dec 15 2006, 11:06 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
it might be best for you to start over from scratch with SR4. The conversions from SR3 to SR4 are kinda clunky to say the least. If you want to sort of 'rebuild' the characters another option would simply be to CG from scratch then add X ammount of earned karma (Or just boost the starting BP). That way your not 'newbie' runners and you avoid all the headache of trying to figgure how what converts to what.
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Dec 15 2006, 02:15 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 4-December 06 From: Chicago, IL Member No.: 10,193 |
Right, but in his example, Mr. Johnson, if he wanted the job done, would have to meet the price of whatever group he ended up with. This takes all of his options off of the table, and that's just not how I picture things going. He's sponsored and well connected. He's got many options. You have far fewer. |
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Dec 15 2006, 02:18 PM
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#48
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Who gets to set the meet/the price/etc all depends on the Connections and Loyalty of the contact you got it from, the relative Influence + Cha/Will of the parties. If the runners got the numbers on their side, they can make the J jump through their hoops and vice versa.
Remember if the J takes his job to more runner groups, the more likely that the info will leak and the runners that got passed over may try to intercept the run and cut a sweeter deal when they got the paydata/etc. From the moment the Johnson meets with the runners, the Johnson risks a lot. If the run doesn't go through, he can walk but the exposure can cause the run set up with later groups to go wrong. |
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Dec 15 2006, 02:24 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
he only gives you general details about what job you are going to do. "I need you to perform an extraction, from a light security location, and this needs to be done quickly before the end of the week." he'll also usually give you a price with that statement to let you know the importance or danger, you decide yes or no based on that info. if you try to cut a sweeter deal you'll be soon to find a better more ruthless corporate "cleaner" on their way to give you a nice hot bath. |
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Dec 15 2006, 02:32 PM
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#50
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
I don't see how this is any different from a live face-to-face meeting. Johnsons are supposed to be anonymous and interchangeable anyway. Many take great pains to hide their identity and you really can never be 100% sure they are who they say they are in any situation. Heck, the real Johnson might have been ambushed on the way to the meet and replaced by a rival group Johnson. You don't know. Any meeting site can be recorded. Cameras and other such devices are already ubiquitous in most urban settings today, and it's only going to get worse in the future. You CAN set up an AR meeting, you just have to make sure not to actually mention sensitive info while connected. Have a secure packet delivered to you via the fixer with all the sensitive info prior to the meet, and during the meeting only refer to generic things like "Item 5 from the packet" or "Photo 16". -karma |
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