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djinni
this is kinda a "what does the "average" shadowrunning group go through to ensure their safe during a meet with the johnson?"
but more I'm looking for pointers since our GM is making us micromanage everything, we have to specifically ask every single little tiny detail question otherwise we don't know it.
any pointers for pointed questions to ask would be nice.

we have a group of five, a face who is the only meat body to attend the meet.
a hacker specialized in hacking, who attends wireless link
a hacker who specializes in rigging drones, who eavesdrops wirelessly, maintaining secuity outside with drones.
and a gun toting looney that infiltrates teh meeting area as an unrelated patron.

I can't ask him "what kind of security is there." I have to be more direct in my questions, any help would be appreciated.
(btw this is a new style we are trying out to see how it works, trying to make all the meets the same so if he ambushes us later we as players won't see it coming)
Vaevictis
Two words: Claymore Mines.

biggrin.gif

"Hey, buddy. See this box on my chest? It's a claymore mine. You know what that is? A directional mine. If I blow this sucker, it's going to break all my ribs and put me in a world of hurt. You? Well, I'm facing you, so it's going to turn you into chunky salsa if I detonate it. Don't mess with me." biggrin.gif
Lovesmasher
A reporter branches out from the 6 obvious and essential questions:

Who - What - Where - When - Why - How

What
is the job. Mr. Johnson will usually volunteer this information.

Why, in Shadowrun is usually answered by a number. specifically, this is how much you'll get paid. That breaks down into Advance and Completion. How much do I get up front and how much do I get when we're finished. This needs to exceed your costs or it's not a job worth doing. If you can get your costs covered by the advance, you'll do fine.

When should this whole thing happen? Hopefully it's not immediately or as soon as possible. Immediately means it's exceptionally dangerous if only because there's no time to plan. This means you need to either not take the job or ask for more money in advance. My advice is a lot more. The longer you have to prepare, the more likely you are to have a successful plan that goes beyond kick the door in and kill everyone. As soon as possible is often worse than immediately because when you deem soon and when Mr. Johnson deems soon will more than likely not mesh well.

Where covers pick-up and delivery of anything that needs to be transported, stolen, kidnapped, destroyed or whathaveyou. Make sure you know both the beginning where and end where before you start anything. If Mr. Johnson won't tell you the end where before the mission starts, you need to ask for more money in advance.

How encompasses special directions. Most often Mr. Johnson won't want you to level the building that contains the computers that hold the information he wants stolen. Sometimes he will. This is a good time to find out if you're allowed to kill anyone or blow things up. If Mr. Johnson requests killing someone or blowing things up, you need to ask for more money in advance. If Mr. Johnson insists on you not killing anyone or blowing things up, you need to ask for a LOT of money at completion.

Who are the parties involved. Most often the only parties involved that you need to worry about are your team members. Other 'who's to worry about are targets to avoid, known security personelle and acceptable losses. Too many whos and you need to ask for more money.
Eleazar
I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to ask him a question like, "What kind of security is there." Are you playing in some parallel universe where all logic and reason are thrown out the window? Why wouldn't a Johnson tell you the type of security? Any Johnson would be willing give out this information as it will only help ensure the victory of the shadowrunner team. Unless of course he is setting you up. Mr. Johnsons are some some AI with a pilot rating 3 that are completely incapable of answering one the most specific and direct questions. What I would advise you do is have a list of some 80-100 questions that are as direct and specific as possible. I think then maybe your GM might get a clue.

Serbitar's Guide to Paranoia v1.3 has some great tips. He has 5 things listed you should ask and almost every Johnson would be willing to give out.

"1. The kind of job (extraction, observation, demolition ...)
2. The average threat level
3. Time contraints
4. Estimated number of people needed
5. Special focal points (matrix, magical, vehicle)"

Serbitar goes on to say:
"He should know this and give you all the information above. If he doesn't, you'd better run. In the worst case his head will explode in the next ten seconds and Damien Knight will pop out to spank you. In the best case he is just very new in the business and doesn't do his homework. Not a very good situation where your life may depend on the information you get."
Charon
It's just the meet.

Even if your Johnson is out to screw you, he wouldn't do it at the meet, he'd do it through the run itself.

The only reason you'd get ambushed at the meet itself is if the guy who set up the meet is out for revenge and can't wait for the whole team to be present before he goes batshit crazy in a public place. Not very likely.

In my experience, when there's violence at the meet it is 95% of the time to players fault.

So cut down in the ridiculous counter-security measure and save some for when it'll be useful and fun (metagame-wise)

---

Considering the above, I feel most of the team should be present. Perhaps even everybody. If there's really a trap, everyone needs to be within sight of the mage for counter-spelling purpose if everyone is to have a shot at surviving the first moments of the ambush.

But here's the thing ; Do your research. If you have reasons to believe the meet will be an ambush, don't show up. If you think you might get assaulted, you screwed up just by showing up.

But once you decide the meet is legit and opt to show up, do treat this like a meet and not a military operations. The objective here is to extract most information and establish a good working relation with Johnson who surely has other missions he could give you afterward.

Johnson isn't hiring a faceman, he's hiring a team. He wants to see a team. He wants to see for himself that everybody looks serious, can behave and doesn't look to be at each other's throat. He wants to see more than one person asking him pointed question to assure himself that there's some brain power and expertise spread amongst this crew instead of one slick talker and a bunch of slack jawed brute.

Meanwhile, most of the Johnson did not come ot the meet with a whole security detail. It would kinda go against the discretion and deniability factor. But amongst the few security measure he could take would be a jammer to insure communication security during the meet. Whoops. The one thing that drastically reduce the usefulness of having 4 other people playing james bond around the meet ; cutting the communications.

From a metagaming POV, it's also silly. All these precautions will require various stealth and hacking rolls. It's inevitable in the long run that poor rolls and glitches will screw up your preparation. Which is what edge is for. But do you really want to be using your edge at the meet?! Also it means a lot of game time will be dedicated to what should be a straightforward scene. As a player, this is not a very entertaining use for your time.


---


Your GM seems a bit anal retentive. Some leeway should allowed to the PCs who are supposed to be skilled and/or experienced.

This means that even though things like spotting a civilian packing heat isn't always on their mind, (i.e the PC isn't asking "Is he armed?" about every freaking NPC his character meets, thus forcing a legion of pointless rolls), it's something they should always have a chance of doing. Be it with the -2 modifier because they are distracted, they'd still have a fair shot of noticing with a good perception score.
djinni
QUOTE (Eleazar)
I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to ask him a question like, "What kind of security is there."

I was talking about the actual meet, not the job. however I was going to be asking about the job next.
such as the johnson says the initial meet will be "dinner at matchsticks."
and the drop off will be "coffee at FUBAR's"

we go to meet the johnson and he plans on ambushing us, at the meet, because we've attracted enemies, or he's actually doublecrossing us. the legwork before the meet takes place...
we are trying a new angle before we could just say "hey security is...?"
and he'd give a run down, but we are attemtping to make the run and the meet a similar situation where we can get surprised, or overlook details. the abstract way we can't get surprised because he's given us all the relative game information. this way we might make a mistake. if it's something important or obvious he'll let the players know btw your character would probably not overlook this detail.

and at the meet the GM plays the johnson as a person (a corporate man, who is not willingly giving out more cred than he has to). conversational, and freely giving information he thinks helps without betraying his corp masters.

unfortuantely Serbitars links don't work here, I've been trying them everyday for a long time. if someone wouldn't mind linking them, or Emailing them then I would probably get all the information I need out of them.
Eleazar
Charon, you make me laugh. I don't know if you meant to be funny with with your third statement but that was great.
kzt
Given the awful security of any network link in SR I'd be really leery of doing any broadcasting of a meet.

You really don't want to explain the recording Joe Random hacker made when he forwards it to you target along with the video you so helpfully made showing you and the Johnson.

We typically wanted a site the either we could control or that had fairly effective security of it's own. The Space Needle restaurant (iirc) was used a few times, as it has effective security and if someone wanted to do you harm they can't exactly make a fast getaway.

If it was a club we'd research it ahead of time and see if there were any bad things that we should know about. For those public sites that we couldn't control we'd get there early and get a feel for the place. If we could get away with weapons we'd typically smuggle them in. If security was tight enough to keep us honest it should help keep the other side honest, as long as the management doesn't have it in for us.

In a meet in an open area (which we were not really very fond of) we'd try to set it at the last minute. Like no more than 20 minutes, with us choosing the location. This was typically only the case with post run deliveries, as we really didn't like meeting people we didn't know out in the middle of nowhere. For that matter, we didn't like meeting anyone on a pre-arranged meet in the middle of nowhere. It just didn't seem like a practice conducive to long life.
PBTHHHHT
Hell from some of the groups that I've played with, I wouldn't want the entire group to be there just on the basis of not wanting certain characters to talk to the Johnson and making us look unprofessional. To keep them busy, make them do the security/surveillance for the meet. wink.gif
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (kzt)
We typically wanted a site the either we could control or that had fairly effective security of it's own. The Space Needle restaurant (iirc) was used a few times, as it has effective security and if someone wanted to do you harm they can't exactly make a fast getaway.

Demolitions 6 (controlled explosions)
Parachuting 6 (base jumping)


...just in case.
grinbig.gif
djinni
QUOTE (Charon)
Your GM seems a bit anal retentive. Some leeway should allowed to the PCs who are supposed to be skilled and/or experienced.

it's not just him...but yes...yes they are...

with the way they want to do things a "I check the place out for any bad things we should know about." doesn't work. they want a "the bouncer and front security detail, how many people, what races, how do they handle themselves, are they aremed how do they handle concealed weapons, or troublesome customers.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
Hell from some of the groups that I've played with, I wouldn't want the entire group to be there just on the basis of not wanting certain characters to talk to the Johnson and making us look unprofessional. To keep them busy, make them do the security/surveillance for the meet. wink.gif

Make their employment contingent on them not being a douche during the meet.

I know you're a gaming group and all pals, but your PCs are putting their lives and livelihoods on the line and it's important.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
Two words: Claymore Mines.

biggrin.gif

"Hey, buddy. See this box on my chest? It's a claymore mine. You know what that is? A directional mine. If I blow this sucker, it's going to break all my ribs and put me in a world of hurt. You? Well, I'm facing you, so it's going to turn you into chunky salsa if I detonate it. Don't mess with me." biggrin.gif

As an aside, my no-so-subtle cyber-headed troll sammy has a claymore mine as his forehead plate. With the words "THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY" prominently visible.

People have asked him if it's a real claymore or just the casing. He usually simply answers, "Do you really want to find out?" They so far always drop the question.

Yes, he usually sits out the diplomatic parts of a run.

biggrin.gif


-karma
Crusufix
We have a group of

Hacker
Mage
Sam1, a True chromed Sam
Sam2, fancies himself a bodyguard, little noticeable cyber.
Rigger
Sam3, likes to remain human looking, only a little bit of noticeable cyber.

Our SOP for Meets is.

We setup the meet for some loud public place, indoors. Generally a bar of some sorts. When we get there We ask the J and his visible collegues to get in our Limo and take a ride with us. Only people at the meet are Face, Sam1, mage (in astral) and Rigger with a flight drone, Sam1 does the driving. Rigger hangs back 10 - 15 minutes to watch what goes on after the meat leaves.

We take him to another loud public place, quiet corner, indoors. Usually the Wiz Around the Corner, an Ex-runner owned meta-human pub (long story behind this place.. and the name).

Hacker meets wirelessly.
Mage meets Astrally.
Sam1 meets in meat.
Sam2 plays face.
Rigger meets via spider drone if he can (usually only allowed at the Wiz, unless we get creative)
Sam3 blends into the crowd, generally dancing.

Before the meet Hacker tries to infiltrate the camera systems of the real meet place (if it's the Wiz, we have an authentic user account!). If successful he feeds a few choice feeds to the sams ARs.

During the Meet, hacker ideally has read access to monitors for watching the whole place and meets wirelessly. Hacker tries to dig for all the information he can about the J and his collegues with him. This may include hacking the commlink of the J. He will also stay an extra hour or so after the meet.

Mage assenses the people at the meeting and those nearby. Looking specifically for any linked foci, active spells or spirit buddies.

Rigger, if he has inside drone, monitors the place, along with the hacker. If No drone inside, then Rigger monitors the place from a flight drone outside while meeting wirelessly.

Sam3 pretty much just watches the area inside, he doesn't even meet wirelessly. He only keeps contact with the Hacker. Sam3 Will usually stay an extra hour or two after the meet depending on how much fun he's having at the time.

Other Notes
-We never use names at a meet, any type of name.
-We never reveal how many are on the team.
-The two meats act like they are the only ones at the meet, never communicating directly with the Hacker, Mage, Rigger or Sam3, the others may communicate with them though, with the understanding it's a one way conversation excluding Sam3 who never contacts either one directly, he relays mostly through the Hacker.
-Face accepts any needed file transmissions, Nuyen exchanges, etc.
-Face does all the talking, with the ocassional input from Sam1. Sam1 watches whoever is with the J, not the J himself.
-Face and Sam1 run with their coms hidden. Sam3 runs with his usual com broadcast looking for playthings, actual message changes frequently.
-Sam3 figures the meet is bad if he doesn't get any play.. lol



Questions we usually ask
- What noticeable (perception test) weapons or cyber the J and his friends have.
- Are they running their comms hidden.
- Is there anyone in the crowd too interested in the meet.
- Anyone following us during the drive to the real meet.
- What happens at the original meet place after the meats have left (any vehicles start up nearby, any people looking confused or flustered. Any hurried activity of any sort.)
- Any active spells, foci or spirits with the J and his friends or perhaps another astral mage.
- Any change of emotion or aura (through mages assencing) during the meet.


I'm sure there are more questons we ask, but Not off the top of my head.
Lagomorph
Here's some helpful information:

1. Johnsons are kept in the dark, they know very little
2. What ever a Johnson does know, he'll lie about
3. Some times they lie by saying I don't know when they do know.

THe result is that you can't ever trust the words coming out of a Johnson's mouth. They're such lying bastards that they don't even tell you what they really want you to do. And if they're trying to pay you, don't accept any money because then it's a trap.

So when he says to steal a prototype from mitsuhama in seattle, he really means to assassinate a prominent figure from ares in bellevue. If you do this he'll be really happy, you can tell because of the loud voice he'll have. So will your GM, he'll have the same happy loud voice. biggrin.gif

Sarcasm aside, meets I think tend to depend heavily on the style of the GM, ours is a bastard, so we really don't ever listen to what the Johnson wants because he'll cut his estimate of security by 50%, tell us that they have no idea we're coming (they do), and that they're poorly armed (they aren't). If your GM is a fairly nice guy, you may not need all the security, if you do need the security like we do, it's probably not even worth it to be contacted by the Johnson because he's just out to screw you anyway.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Dec 14 2006, 03:36 PM)
Hell from some of the groups that I've played with, I wouldn't want the entire group to be there just on the basis of not wanting certain characters to talk to the Johnson and making us look unprofessional.  To keep them busy, make them do the security/surveillance for the meet.  wink.gif

Make their employment contingent on them not being a douche during the meet.

I know you're a gaming group and all pals, but your PCs are putting their lives and livelihoods on the line and it's important.

Oh when I GM, I do that. But other GM's sometimes are more pushovers and just doing it to get the overarching plot going in the universe.

Why make it contigent that everyone has to be at the meet? That is stupid, if the Johnson isn't out to doublecross, what if the third party faction has wind of the meet? Sheesh, there are more factions out there in the game and they're not all going sit on their behinds and only react to problems.

Speaking of gaming group and pals and PC's, it doesn't matter, as long as they play their pc's in character. Sometimes they're anarchists who don't care about the situation, some are psychotic, etc... Their livelihoods? Some do it just for the kicks and can make money jacking people and cars, see other threads.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Sarcasm aside, meets I think tend to depend heavily on the style of the GM, ours is a bastard, so we really don't ever listen to what the Johnson wants because he'll cut his estimate of security by 50%, tell us that they have no idea we're coming (they do), and that they're poorly armed (they aren't).

That makes no sense. Unless he's really out to get the runners killed, why wouldn't a Johnson provide as accurate an intelligence report on the job as he can?

Granted, he might lie about the true intent behind the mission, but it'd be awfully stupid to want something done and then set up the hires to fail at doing that something.

If there's a johnson out there consistently lying about the missions he offers, it would get out among the shadow community pretty fast, and he's stop getting anyone taking the jobs.

If you're going to be a bastard GM, at least be somewhat logical about it.


-karma
Marmot
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
A reporter branches out from the 6 obvious and essential questions:

Who - What - Where - When - Why - How

What
is the job. Mr. Johnson will usually volunteer this information.

Why, in Shadowrun is usually answered by a number. specifically, this is how much you'll get paid. That breaks down into Advance and Completion. How much do I get up front and how much do I get when we're finished. This needs to exceed your costs or it's not a job worth doing. If you can get your costs covered by the advance, you'll do fine.

When should this whole thing happen? Hopefully it's not immediately or as soon as possible. Immediately means it's exceptionally dangerous if only because there's no time to plan. This means you need to either not take the job or ask for more money in advance. My advice is a lot more. The longer you have to prepare, the more likely you are to have a successful plan that goes beyond kick the door in and kill everyone. As soon as possible is often worse than immediately because when you deem soon and when Mr. Johnson deems soon will more than likely not mesh well.

Where covers pick-up and delivery of anything that needs to be transported, stolen, kidnapped, destroyed or whathaveyou. Make sure you know both the beginning where and end where before you start anything. If Mr. Johnson won't tell you the end where before the mission starts, you need to ask for more money in advance.

How encompasses special directions. Most often Mr. Johnson won't want you to level the building that contains the computers that hold the information he wants stolen. Sometimes he will. This is a good time to find out if you're allowed to kill anyone or blow things up. If Mr. Johnson requests killing someone or blowing things up, you need to ask for more money in advance. If Mr. Johnson insists on you not killing anyone or blowing things up, you need to ask for a LOT of money at completion.

Who are the parties involved. Most often the only parties involved that you need to worry about are your team members. Other 'who's to worry about are targets to avoid, known security personelle and acceptable losses. Too many whos and you need to ask for more money.

Blatantly stealing this for my own personal use.
Lovesmasher
If possible, PM me a link and gimme credit so I can brag to my gaming group nyahnyah.gif
Lagomorph
QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
If you're going to be a bastard GM, at least be somewhat logical about it.

I wish my GM would be logical about it too... dead.gif
djinni
QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
If there's a johnson out there consistently lying about the missions he offers, it would get out among the shadow community pretty fast, and he's stop getting anyone taking the jobs.

but he's a Mr. Johnson no one knows who he is...dun dun dunnnnnn. wink.gif
if he's planning on messing with the group he wants you to be good enough to handle the job but be banged up enough to not put up much of a fight at the drop off where he doublecrosses you.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Dec 14 2006, 05:16 PM)
If there's a johnson out there consistently lying about the missions he offers, it would get out among the shadow community pretty fast, and he's stop getting anyone taking the jobs.

but he's a Mr. Johnson no one knows who he is...dun dun dunnnnnn. wink.gif
if he's planning on messing with the group he wants you to be good enough to handle the job but be banged up enough to not put up much of a fight at the drop off where he doublecrosses you.

Eh, if someone doublecrosses me, the matrix is gonna see his face. Also, I might RFID him with something that screams 'DANGER: KNOWN CHILD RAPIST!' along with a looped and edited (with tasteful black bars) video of the 'evidence'.
Serbitar
QUOTE (djinni)

unfortuantely Serbitars links don't work here, I've been trying them everyday for a long time. if someone wouldn't mind linking them, or Emailing them then I would probably get all the information I need out of them.

Did you try today? I think I fixed that problem today.
djinni
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (djinni @ Dec 14 2006, 04:31 PM)

unfortuantely Serbitars links don't work here, I've been trying them everyday for a long time. if someone wouldn't mind linking them, or Emailing them then I would probably get all the information I need out of them.

Did you try today? I think I fixed that problem today.

I'm in guam atm, so if you fixed the mainland USA errors, it might not have fixed them here, I'll check in a bit. (dialup)
Charon
QUOTE (Crusufix @ Dec 14 2006, 04:54 PM)
We setup the meet for some loud public place, indoors. Generally a bar of some sorts. When we get there We ask the J and his visible collegues to get in our Limo and take a ride with us. Only people at the meet are Face, Sam1, mage (in astral) and Rigger with a flight drone, Sam1 does the driving. Rigger hangs back 10 - 15 minutes to watch what goes on after the meat leaves.

You setup the meet?

Makes sense when you are trying to fence something valuable. You are in control.

But when you are offered a job?

Fixer: "Dude, I got you a meet for a good one, this time. It smells nuyen my friend. Johnson wants to meet you at the Exelsior to discuss an exraction."
You : "No good, tell him we'll set up the meet."
Fixer : "... I'll try."

30 seconds later

You : "So?"
Fixer : "He says he'll go with another team."

The only way a runner team would be able to dictate the terms of the meet for a job offer is if they knew for sure that they were the best available and that Johnson had no choice but to call them back.

QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Sarcasm aside, meets I think tend to depend heavily on the style of the GM, ours is a bastard, so we really don't ever listen to what the Johnson wants because he'll cut his estimate of security by 50%, tell us that they have no idea we're coming (they do), and that they're poorly armed (they aren't). If your GM is a fairly nice guy, you may not need all the security, if you do need the security like we do, it's probably not even worth it to be contacted by the Johnson because he's just out to screw you anyway.


As has already been said, that makes no sense.

Unless the job was a set up, Johnson wants you to succeeds. Otherwise he has wasted his advance money and probably his opportunity to accomplish his employers objective.

A Johnson who routinely fail to set up successful runs ends up exactly the same as a runner who routinely fails his runs : Dead or poor and unemployed.

The only things a Johnson has a vested interest in lying about are his true employers and perhaps his true motive (but even then if he if isn't explicit about that he runs the risk of having the runner complete their objective in a fashion that is not optimal).

Tell your GM to think about he is doing and what it implies.

QUOTE (djinni)
but he's a Mr. Johnson no one knows who he is...dun dun dunnnnnn.
if he's planning on messing with the group he wants you to be good enough to handle the job but be banged up enough to not put up much of a fight at the drop off where he doublecrosses you.


He's exactly as anomynmous as the runners are. With exactly the same incentive to maintain a good reputation.

Speaking of which, the one thing GM sometime forget about Johnson is to have the Fixer comment on J's reliability when they introduce him to the runners : "He's a new face in town. Paid me a lot of money so that I introduce him to some talen." or "He's set up over 20 runs in the past 18 month just with me and I know he's dealing with a few other fixers. My guys I referred him never had to complain."

Obviously the Fixer knows how much Johnson has done biz with him and probably some colleague. That's pretty important and basic info.

The respected Johnson who is conducting regular and profitable business with the fixer is extremely unlikely to double-cross the runner because he risks his relations with the Fixer and then all the runner this fixer introduced him to. OTOH the new guy could be there just for a one shot sting operation that requires sacrificial lambs and the fact that he's throwing money around instead of laying carefully the groundwork for long term relationship is suspicious.

Obvious, no?

QUOTE (Eleazar)
Charon, you make me laugh. I don't know if you meant to be funny with with your third statement but that was great.


At last, recognition!
Crusufix
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Crusufix @ Dec 14 2006, 04:54 PM)
We setup the meet for some loud public place, indoors. Generally a bar of some sorts. When we get there We ask the J and his visible collegues to get in our Limo and take a ride with us. Only people at the meet are Face, Sam1, mage (in astral) and Rigger with a flight drone, Sam1 does the driving. Rigger hangs back 10 - 15 minutes to watch what goes on after the meat leaves.

You setup the meet?

Makes sense when you are trying to fence something valuable. You are in control.

But when you are offered a job?

Fixer: "Dude, I got you a meet for a good one, this time. It smells nuyen my friend. Johnson wants to meet you at the Exelsior to discuss an exraction."
You : "No good, tell him we'll set up the meet."
Fixer : "... I'll try."

30 seconds later

You : "So?"
Fixer : "He says he'll go with another team."

The only way a runner team would be able to dictate the terms of the meet for a job offer is if they knew for sure that they were the best available and that Johnson had no choice but to call them back.

Generally we get asked by the fixer where we want to meet the J.

I've always imagined it as a callback situation.

J calls fixer. Fixer says he'll see what he can find.
Fixer calls team. Team agrees to meet at such and such place at such and such time.
Fixer calls J and informs him he's found a team willing to bite and to go to such and such place and such and such time.


Even if we didn't get to set the original meeting place it would pretty much go the same way.

If the J refuses to take a ride in the limo we generally walk away as something is usually fishy with that.

Though there have been times.. actually quite a few times.. where we have met the J under less than ideal circumstances. Approached in a park.. Face gets kidnapped.. Random notes left tied to dead hanging cats... Approached in a hospital while recovering from a run gone wild...
Blade
It depends on a lot of things. It won't be the same if you're running in Seattle, Seoul, tamanrasset or Paris. Even then, it won't be the same if you're running for a megacorp or for lousy (but rich) Joe who's looking for his daughter. And it also won't be the same if he needs you badly, or if it's the other way around.

In somes cases, you'll meet someone who doesn't know anymore than what he's told to say (you might even deal with your fixer rather than Mr Johnson), in some cases you'll meet someone who knows everything there is to know about the case. In some cases you'll meet Mr Johnson face to face, in some cases you'll only meet his persona, or you might even meet a dead body (or something even weirder).

If you consider all this, it's hard to give advices as to what to do.
Charon
QUOTE (Crusufix @ Dec 14 2006, 07:49 PM)
I've always imagined it as a callback situation.

J calls fixer. Fixer says he'll see what he can find.

That's because your GM probably has poor understanding of basic politics.

In a logical gameworld, J has the power when it comes to setting up the meet.

There are more runners than run. Unless you are the very best in the biz, you need the job more than Johnson needs you.

The set up you proposed is for your security not his. But J has the power and will set things up with his security in mind.

And if you balk and walk, he'll just call someone else. EDIT : Or most likely the fixer will recommend someone else to J. It's unlikely he even asked for you specifically.

Pretty soon you'll be starving and next time you'll accept his conditions for the meet.

That simple.

QUOTE
If the J refuses to take a ride in the limo we generally walk away as something is usually fishy with that.


Poor reasoning. Your PCs wouldn't want to get in that ride unless they had no choice if the situation was reversed. And you are usually far more proficient in combat than him! Why would Johnson want to get in with you, the dangerous shadowrunners (and often irrational PCs)?

The meet is more dangerous for him than you : You are the hardened criminals with little to lose, not him!

He has every reason to want to maintain control and the leverage to make sure he does so.

---

Just imagine what you would do if you were subcontracting part of the run and hiring gang members to run interference. How would you set up the meet? And if your prospective employees wanted to set the meet so they are in control? What would you do?
Lovesmasher
Yeah, I can't imagine ever being the ones in power in a meet. The only thing we control is our willingness to do the job or not. Everything else is merely lubricant toward that decision.
Crusufix
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
Yeah, I can't imagine ever being the ones in power in a meet. The only thing we control is our willingness to do the job or not. Everything else is merely lubricant toward that decision.

I've always been under the impression that the Runners were the ones in charge of the meet. J wants a job done and he usually wants it hush hush and done as quickly and professionally as possible. He's not going to want to interview 5 different teams looking for the ideal one. He's just looking to get something dirty and underhanded done with and without a lot of fuss.

I've never viewed the 6th age as having an overabundance of professional runners. I've always thought runners were a rare and hard to find commodity.

I guess it's a different view on the game.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Crusufix)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 08:56 PM)
Yeah, I can't imagine ever being the ones in power in a meet. The only thing we control is our willingness to do the job or not. Everything else is merely lubricant toward that decision.

I've always been under the impression that the Runners were the ones in charge of the meet. J wants a job done and he usually wants it hush hush and done as quickly and professionally as possible. He's not going to want to interview 5 different teams looking for the ideal one. He's just looking to get something dirty and underhanded done with and without a lot of fuss.

I've never viewed the 6th age as having an overabundance of professional runners. I've always thought runners were a rare and hard to find commodity.

I guess it's a different view on the game.

If that was true, you'd be setting your own price. I doubt any game works like that.
ShadowDragon8685
That's what Shadowrunners already do.

If they set a price the J is unwilling to pay, the J walks. If they set a price he's willing to pay, arrangements are made and laws get broken.
Crusufix
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (Crusufix @ Dec 14 2006, 10:17 PM)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 08:56 PM)
Yeah, I can't imagine ever being the ones in power in a meet. The only thing we control is our willingness to do the job or not. Everything else is merely lubricant toward that decision.

I've always been under the impression that the Runners were the ones in charge of the meet. J wants a job done and he usually wants it hush hush and done as quickly and professionally as possible. He's not going to want to interview 5 different teams looking for the ideal one. He's just looking to get something dirty and underhanded done with and without a lot of fuss.

I've never viewed the 6th age as having an overabundance of professional runners. I've always thought runners were a rare and hard to find commodity.

I guess it's a different view on the game.

If that was true, you'd be setting your own price. I doubt any game works like that.

Not really. You negotiate a price both can accept. Mr. J doesn't want too much money to be disappearing into the shadows and there ARE others that can be approached at the sacrifice of some time to save a few nuyen. The runners want to make enough yen to cover their expenses and a little extra to pay for some nice toys or put away into a safe spot

Runners being too greedy and demanding high prices will mean that Mr. J will be motivated to take that extra time finding another team. There are other teams, they are just hard to find. It only takes an initial amount of time to find a team they can agree with and would most likely stick with that team for a while. The runners may get away with over charging the first time, but after that J is going to know that he doesn't want to be dealing with those runners. Heck, overcharging might even prompt the J to double-cross the runners. It may be cheaper to off the runners and they don't have to worry about getting their hands dirty in affairs other companies may look down upon.

Do Johnsons want a team that doesn't pay attention to detail and security, or do they want a team that looks like they know what they are doing.

Charon
Actually, it's well established in cannon (official adventure) and novels that typically the Johnson will state a price up front.

Some haggling will result from that starting point but it's obvious that the Johnson has the balance of powers. The haggling is for the Runner's ego (And the player, from a metagame POV!). Many source have hinted that most Johnson just state a price somewhat below their budget to let the Runner haggle the price up a bit so they feel good but usually the Johnson ends up paying exactly what he wanted while the runner would always have wanted more (obviously). Considering the risks the runner face and the benefits of a successful run for J's employer, you could say that runners always get screwed but that's typical cyberpunk for you.

With lifestyle upkeep piling up, Runners have some margin to refuse offers that are just outrageous (and they should, to avoid a rep as cheap runner) but in the end they have to accept plenty of jobs just to make end meet and not fall behind the SOTA.

It's a common theme of Shadowrun.

It's a Johnson's market.

QUOTE
I've always been under the impression that the Runners were the ones in charge of the meet. J wants a job done and he usually wants it hush hush and done as quickly and professionally as possible. He's not going to want to interview 5 different teams looking for the ideal one. He's just looking to get something dirty and underhanded done with and without a lot of fuss.


I have no idea why you were under the impression that the runners were in charge of the meet with J because it is reflected nowhere in the SR litterature.

No, J doesn't want interviews. He trusts the Fixer that referenced the runners, and if he send clowns it's the fixer who gets no return business. The Fixer is sorta the agent.

And of course J will always want to control the meet for his own security and not concede initiative to his employers who are basically professional criminals.

Unless of course Johnson is actually a one shot amateur but that's a different story.
kzt
We normally got a call suggesting the general nature of the job and some indication of the money. If we were interested the fixer would set up the meet. Typically the J choose a location. We could object, but seldom did. Having a J get whacked at a meet would adversely impact our professional rep, which is the only thing that keeps a runner team getting good jobs, so keeping he J safe is also quite important. Having him feel safe in environment that he is comfortable with also has him show up to offer the job.

If someone suggested something totally off the wall (like a mid-level in an abandoned parking garage in the barrens) we would be much more likely bail or do heavy surveillance and show up unpredictably and heavily loaded for bear.


Once the actual meet goes down we typically would always all be there unless we needed someone to provide cover during the meet.

The issues we wanted were, in order:
1) What generally does he want done.
2) General target parameters
3) Timeline
4) Target info
5) Payment details.

We reserved the right to walk if we didn't like any of these, so we tried to keep from getting too deep before we generally agreed that we where willing to do the job. We only occasionally did bail in the meet. The only one I can remember was a job in Portland in 3rd edition. We never got to worrying about money or target details as 2/3rds of us decided that this just didn't feel good. And we was right.

If the target wasn't what the description said we also could walk, but that was really rare. We more often did a renegotiation of the money, but that was rare too.
Zen Shooter01
Do it in AR. J. calls you, emails whatever data is necessary, including payment.

But here's a question: why would J. want to kill you in the first place? Is he sitting around the office saying to his coworkers, hey, you know what would be a gas? If we invited some deniable assets to a meet...and then wasted 'em!
Crusher Bob
As pointed out by me and many others. Runs are only one of the many ways a team of highly trained magical/cybered death machines can make a living. If runs pay less/are more dangerous then why do them?

As for procedures for the meet:

Only the face goes. If you have someone presentable who can act as a close in guard, driver, etc then they can go as well. The rest of the team is in tactical gear nearby. This protects the team (they can't all be photographed, assensed, drugged, etc at the meet). Of crouse, you have to trust the face to be playing straight with you (giving out the full payment, etc)
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Do it in AR. J. calls you, emails whatever data is necessary, including payment.

But here's a question: why would J. want to kill you in the first place? Is he sitting around the office saying to his coworkers, hey, you know what would be a gas? If we invited some deniable assets to a meet...and then wasted 'em!

This assumes that everyone you will meet in the shadows will be acting rationally. Also, you are assuming that the Johnson is actually there to offer you a job, and is simply not using the job offer in an attempt to arrest, kill, or kidnap you. This is typically one of the things your fixer is supposed to check out. Is the Johnson 'legit'? The break into the business for the first time Johnson is probably just as hard. After all, he might be a cop or some sort other sort of loony.
Kesslan
Also the thing is, I dont see why a J would automatically refuse your request to meet at an alternative location. I mean it's one thing if you say:

A) Frag off! We aint meeting you anywere but where -we- say we gonna meet you!

or..

B) Well Mr. Johnson, as much as are very much interested in being employed by you. Certain circumstances make your suggested meeting spot less than desirable for my associates and I. May we suggest instead to meet X. It's a very safe, secure and more importantly descrete location for us to meet at. Here are the directions on how to get there incase you wish to check out the location for yourself. Please let us know if this alternative location is acceptable.
Signed:
The big bad runners.
Charon
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Dec 15 2006, 12:37 AM)
As pointed out by me and many others.  Runs are only one of the many ways a team of highly trained magical/cybered death machines can make a living.  If runs pay less/are more dangerous then why do them?

First of all, who said it doesn't pay? But it's not supposed to make you millionaire either. It only has to be a step up from mafia legbreaker or car thief and to dangle the hope of an eventual big score to be a rational choice for normal runner type. (That being said I'm not too cheap of a GM)

Because secondly, who says any given runner has a better options?

Yeah, I know a lot of player come up with background where the PC apparently chose this path. Then it's their problem when that choice seems illogical once they start playing. Hell yeah it's better living to be Corp elite trooper on some hot shot FRT than being street sam. But who says the street sam has any way of getting himself on such a team?! A standard runner background involve someone who either was always SINless or had a good career path ahead of him but it was violently broken due to various possible incidents. So inb the case of our street sam, either he never had any chance of getting on such an elite unit, or he was on it and was forced to leave.

Either way, the corp are typically not fighting to recruit a Street Sam in their special units. Their roster is filled by loyal and endoctrined employees. So no, most runner don't have a lot of lucrative options ahead of them beyond running.

Don't you get the feeling that elite mage, hacker and street sam are two dimes a dozens in SR? There's never any shortage of them to toss at the PC during adventures!

And if you are not rare, you ar enot that valuable. Until perhaps you survive 30 runs or so and truly become elite. Until then, shut up you punk runner and pay up your dues!
kzt
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Do it in AR. J. calls you, emails whatever data is necessary, including payment.

It's totally insecure. You can't verify anyone is who they say they are. You have no idea whether you are talking to the actual J or some hacker having a good time, or if the conversation is being recorded. It would be kind of amusing if the J and the team were both talking to imposter's, but it would also suck. For someone to show up to meet with a band of hardened criminals shows more commitment. And it's much more likely to be secure.
Kesslan
Bah nothing in SR is ever totally secure. Assume everything is a lie! A BLANTANT LIE!

Infact it's so much of a lie I think your just a figment of my immagination, but since this ammuses me I'm giong to offer you a job anyway! Yay!
kzt
QUOTE (Kesslan)
Bah nothing in SR is ever totally secure. Assume everything is a lie! A BLANTANT LIE!

If you like doing random acts of violence for no pay to amuse the SR4 version of the phone phreak, more power to you. AR meets are a great resource in this approach to life.
Kesslan
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 14 2006, 11:33 PM)
Bah nothing in SR is ever totally secure. Assume everything is a lie! A BLANTANT LIE!

If you like doing random acts of violence for no pay to amuse the SR4 version of the phone phreak, more power to you. AR meets are a great resource in this approach to life.

I wasnt being entirely serious. And AR meets to an extent seem very much par for the course in SR4 for runners. Just read the the story fluff of the main book where the team is meeting the J. THey all use AR to discuss stuff 'in house' even though the guy is right therein the room with them.
Crusufix
QUOTE (Charon)
Actually, it's well established in cannon (official adventure) and novels that typically the Johnson will state a price up front.

Here's probably where we go wrong then. I've never been one to read many SR novels. In fact I've only read two of them. One was really good. Wish I could remember it's name. Basically it's about a mage looking into the death of.. his father or friend or something, only to come across a spirit summoning. Another story line was about a retired Runner team that was now into .. some sort of dangerous motorcycle sport. The story actually had 4 story lines all going at the same time. 3 of the story lines kept criss-crossing between each other. With one story line seeing the aftermath of another. The 4th story-line was pretty much independent through-out the whole book and seemed completely out of place until the very very end. The 4th story line was all about a new Seattle Sewage clean-up worker... One that was in full body armor and carried very big guns!

BTW: If anybody can tell me the name of that book I'd much appreciate it.

Anyways.. onto topic.

I've only read the 2 SR books and most my SR experience and knowledge is from SR2. We have only recently been introduced to SR4 (by recently I mean, like 2 weeks ago we got our hands on the main book). I don't know how much things have changed in between. So it may be that my group is slightly skewed on the setting details.

Generally negotiations for prices do start with the J making an offer and we use that as a baseline.

It should also be noted that we may consider our characters drek hot elite Runners. We've been playing the same characters for over 2 years and have accumulated several hundred Karma each (well not the whole team, but a lot of the team, one retired, thus creating the Wiz around the corner and 2 were slagged). In fact we've been discussing retiring these characters and creating new ones for the change over to SR4.
Kesslan
it might be best for you to start over from scratch with SR4. The conversions from SR3 to SR4 are kinda clunky to say the least. If you want to sort of 'rebuild' the characters another option would simply be to CG from scratch then add X ammount of earned karma (Or just boost the starting BP). That way your not 'newbie' runners and you avoid all the headache of trying to figgure how what converts to what.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Crusufix)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 11:32 PM)
QUOTE (Crusufix @ Dec 14 2006, 10:17 PM)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 08:56 PM)
Yeah, I can't imagine ever being the ones in power in a meet. The only thing we control is our willingness to do the job or not. Everything else is merely lubricant toward that decision.

I've always been under the impression that the Runners were the ones in charge of the meet. J wants a job done and he usually wants it hush hush and done as quickly and professionally as possible. He's not going to want to interview 5 different teams looking for the ideal one. He's just looking to get something dirty and underhanded done with and without a lot of fuss.

I've never viewed the 6th age as having an overabundance of professional runners. I've always thought runners were a rare and hard to find commodity.

I guess it's a different view on the game.

If that was true, you'd be setting your own price. I doubt any game works like that.

Not really. You negotiate a price both can accept. Mr. J doesn't want too much money to be disappearing into the shadows and there ARE others that can be approached at the sacrifice of some time to save a few nuyen. The runners want to make enough yen to cover their expenses and a little extra to pay for some nice toys or put away into a safe spot

Runners being too greedy and demanding high prices will mean that Mr. J will be motivated to take that extra time finding another team. There are other teams, they are just hard to find. It only takes an initial amount of time to find a team they can agree with and would most likely stick with that team for a while. The runners may get away with over charging the first time, but after that J is going to know that he doesn't want to be dealing with those runners. Heck, overcharging might even prompt the J to double-cross the runners. It may be cheaper to off the runners and they don't have to worry about getting their hands dirty in affairs other companies may look down upon.

Do Johnsons want a team that doesn't pay attention to detail and security, or do they want a team that looks like they know what they are doing.

Right, but in his example, Mr. Johnson, if he wanted the job done, would have to meet the price of whatever group he ended up with. This takes all of his options off of the table, and that's just not how I picture things going. He's sponsored and well connected. He's got many options. You have far fewer.
toturi
Who gets to set the meet/the price/etc all depends on the Connections and Loyalty of the contact you got it from, the relative Influence + Cha/Will of the parties. If the runners got the numbers on their side, they can make the J jump through their hoops and vice versa.

Remember if the J takes his job to more runner groups, the more likely that the info will leak and the runners that got passed over may try to intercept the run and cut a sweeter deal when they got the paydata/etc.

From the moment the Johnson meets with the runners, the Johnson risks a lot. If the run doesn't go through, he can walk but the exposure can cause the run set up with later groups to go wrong.
djinni
QUOTE (toturi)
Remember if the J takes his job to more runner groups, the more likely that the info will leak and the runners that got passed over may try to intercept the run and cut a sweeter deal when they got the paydata/etc.

he only gives you general details about what job you are going to do.
"I need you to perform an extraction, from a light security location, and this needs to be done quickly before the end of the week."
he'll also usually give you a price with that statement to let you know the importance or danger, you decide yes or no based on that info.
if you try to cut a sweeter deal you'll be soon to find a better more ruthless corporate "cleaner" on their way to give you a nice hot bath.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (kzt)
It's totally insecure. You can't verify anyone is who they say they are. You have no idea whether you are talking to the actual J or some hacker having a good time, or if the conversation is being recorded. It would be kind of amusing if the J and the team were both talking to imposter's, but it would also suck. For someone to show up to meet with a band of hardened criminals shows more commitment. And it's much more likely to be secure.

I don't see how this is any different from a live face-to-face meeting.

Johnsons are supposed to be anonymous and interchangeable anyway. Many take great pains to hide their identity and you really can never be 100% sure they are who they say they are in any situation. Heck, the real Johnson might have been ambushed on the way to the meet and replaced by a rival group Johnson. You don't know.

Any meeting site can be recorded. Cameras and other such devices are already ubiquitous in most urban settings today, and it's only going to get worse in the future.

You CAN set up an AR meeting, you just have to make sure not to actually mention sensitive info while connected. Have a secure packet delivered to you via the fixer with all the sensitive info prior to the meet, and during the meeting only refer to generic things like "Item 5 from the packet" or "Photo 16".


-karma
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