 Bioware vs Cyberware?, Can you hack it? |
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 Dec 18 2006, 04:12 AM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813  |
quote, please? where does it say it must be physically connected? that's not stated anywhere in the rules to my knowledge. sure, the sim module is an accessory of the commlink. so is a printer. you gonna tell me that a printer can't receive wireless commands to print stuff? |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:19 AM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
So basically you have cooked up a fantasy scenario in which a hacker can murder anyone in the world who is using a commlink, huh?
I indeed didn't understand it this way because it is even more flawed. Obviously you don't have that little voice in your head that says : "This makes no sense!". The target needs to be experiencing hot sim and then you hit him with a black hammer. But to be experiencing hot sim he needs to have a hot-enabled simsense module connected directly, physically to his brain through a datajack or electrode. In your example Joe has nothing even connected to his brain and you are talking about killing him by using your own simsense module. The one that is connected to your brain! Next you will suggest using the medkit you are carrying to apply first aid on a man 200 meter away. Why not? It has wireless capabilities! |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:24 AM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Heh, try and kill me through my AR glasses, I dare you. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:25 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
And that is why we are arguing? Under simsense module, obviously.
I guess it's because I'm a old timer but this was pretty much a given in my reasoning. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:31 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
No we get what your saying Jaid what we are saying is IT DOESN"T WORK.
What you explain doesn't work because the lethal biofeed back has no way to get from the hackers hot sim module to Joe Average. Now I can see where your geting your use the DNI idea. Sim Module: The sim module is an ASIST interface that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality (see Virtual Reality, p. 228). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc). That is physically connected. Now read very carefully. First DNI stands for direct neural interface. It uses neural signals to control what ever device it is attached to. A Datajack doesn't have a wireless signal nor does the DNI used to control cyberware. However an implanted comlink does. However. The sim module translates computer signals into neural signals, so the brain can interpret them. The lethal effects from biofeed back are the result of neural signals. If Bob's spare hot sim module translates the computer signals to neural signals how is he supposed to wirelessly transmit them. DNI is a neural interface it uses neural signals it can't accept computer signals they have to be translated via a sim module. What are you saying is Bob the Hacker can wirelessly send neural signals into Joe's DNI connection. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:36 AM
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#56
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
It would be akin to having a cell phone on one end with a camera trying to send pictures to a cell phone that doesnt have a screen to show them.
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Dec 18 2006, 04:48 AM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
ok, let's try this again:
show me a quote that says "sim modules are not wireless" and i'll acknowledge that i'm wrong. a quote that says "a sim module requires a direct neural interface" is not disproving what i said. a datajack does not require a wire to reach from the commlink to the datajack, because the datajack is a wireless device. certainly, it communicates to the brain through a wire, but it communicates to the rest of the world with wireless unless you choose to disable that feature. trodes don't require a direct wire to your brain even. but that's not relevant. the relevant fact is that trodes also communicate with the rest of the world through wireless links. in order to disprove my statement, you have to show me where it says that trodes, datajacks, sim modules, etc, are not wireless devices, because the default rule is that they are. certainly, my printer must be touching the paper it prints on. but the computer does not need a wire running between itself and the printer, provided there is a wireless connection. similarly, there is nothing that says "sim modules can not be connected to a commlink wirelessly". there is nothing that says "devices cannot be connected to a datajack wirelessly". the default in SR4 is that everything is wireless. so, like i said: all the target needs in order to be at risk is a DNI. you can provide the rest (if you prefer to require a commlink in there, the hacker can provide the commlink as well, provided there is a wireless path to the target's DNI). |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:48 AM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Great analogy. Well, if we've saved just one SR game from suffering the wrath of the Killer hacker who can assassinate anyone with an open commlink, we have made a difference! *Poses with hands on hips, shoulder pushed back while looking defiantly in the distance. Wind too, there is wind and a SR flag. And bombastic music.* |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:49 AM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Yes. Yes it does! You need a simsense module connected to your brain to experience Hot Sim. You need to experience hot sim to have your brain fried. Your simsense module require direct neural interface. So it only works for you. Are you about to say that while a simsense module needs to be connected directly to a brain to work, any brain will do? Come on, this is madness! |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:50 AM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
no, it doesn't. direct neural interface devices can receive and send information to and from other devices wirelessly until you can find a quote that says otherwise. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:54 AM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
EDIT : Wait, DNI doesn't send wireless signal. It's Direct. Like a datajack is specifically designed to use a fiber optic cable to connect. And no one hacks the DNI between a cyberlimb and the brain, you hack the cyberlimb itself it it's wireless enabled. But it's not the signal alone that kills you anyway, it's being in hot sim when you receive the Blach hammer program. And you ain't in hot sim until you have a hot simsense module connected directly to your brain. Beside, "A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc)." That's as explicit as it's gonna get. It must be accessed directly. Where in that sentence do you hold the hope that maybe it can be accessed wirelessly? If it could, the sentence would be "A sim module can be accessed directly but any wireless connection will do." |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:08 AM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the hotsim module does not have to be directly connected to your brain by a wire though. it can be connected to your brain wirelessly, provided your brain has some form of DNI that communicates with other devices wirelessly. like, say, a datajack. or trodes. or even cyberware other than the datajack, if you don't turn off wireless (though i might make a houserule that the regular cyberware DNI doesn't allow it, since that at least seems a bit odd. definitely datajacks though, since this is their function). so, once again, the hostim module is wirelessly connected to the commlink. the commlink is wirelessly connected to the DNI device (trodes or datajack, your choice). the datajack or trodes are (effectively, in the case of trodes) connected to your brain by a 'wired' connection, but this is irrelevant, because they are connected to the commlink wirelessly, which is connected to the hotsim module wirelessly. therefore, the person can enter hotsim, and therefore they can take physical damage from black hammer. this has nothing to do with 'directly', it has to do with "do trodes and datajacks send and receive data to and from other *devices* (not your brain) wirelessly?" because, if they do, i can send signals from other devices, through your trodes or datajack, and it will reach you. and the answer to the question of whether or not trodes and datajacks send and receive data to and from other devices wirelessly is "yes", unless you can provide a quote to show otherwise, since the default is that anything electronic *is* wireless. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:10 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
ok, wait... are you trying to tell me that a sim module must have a cord inside your head separate from the datajack or something? is that your interpretation of directly? well damn, clearly my characters had better carry around a pickaxe for punching holes in their own head so they can use their sim module, because all this time i've been thinking they could just route the information through their datajack.
remind me to never play in a game you run. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:12 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
A datajack is not a wireless device. IT uses a cord!
Old school deckers would plug there brain into the matrix using a datajack. "Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable" read the cyberware section. It interfaces via a wire. The datajack would plug into the comlink. DNI now connected. Trodes are still a direct wire from the comlink to your skull. "Trodes—A headband or net worn on the head (often under a wig or hat) that allows the reception of simsense." It may not have a wire burrowed into your skull but its still worn on the head. The Implanted comlink well its an implanted comlink. Read up on how a sim module is supposed to work. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality (see Virtual Reality, p. 228). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc). Sim Modules exist because neural signals can't be transmited wirelessly. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals for the brain. As established above. A sim module is wirelessly enabled. It can accept computer signals wirelessly from a comlink or other source. However that does not mean it can wirelessly transmit neural signals. If the neural signals could be transmited wirelessly there would be no sim modules as you could sned the neural signal wirelessly to begain with. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:16 AM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
no, a datajack explicitly *has* a cord. it does not explicitly *require* a cord. nor do the trodes.
they are both wireless devices, because they don't say they aren't. now certainly, they require physical contact to communicate to the human brain, but they don't require physical contact to the device they are sending and receiving information from. the datajack just so happens to have the equipment for having direct wired connections, but it doesn't need to use that path. optical cable no longer has greater bandwidth than wireless, because wireless has effectively unlimited bandwidth for normal situations. like, say, accessing the matrix via hostim VR. directly does not have to mean "there's a wire running between them". |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:18 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Jaid what do you think a datajack is for? Oh it doesn't say dermal plating is wireless but notice they had to point that out in the FAQ for people like you. Tell me what does a wireless datajack do? Nothing at all. All a datajack does is allow you to directly access an electronic device via a fiber optic cable. It mentions no other features.
Why do you suppose they require physical contact to talk with the human brain? could it be that you can't send neural signals wirelessly? Which is why a sim module is required to take computer signals and make them neural signals. Tell me where it says neural signals can be sent wirelessly? You are use's the prove you don't have WMD's method of reasoning. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:23 AM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i know that datajacks include an optical cable. that's beside the point.
the datajack is still also a wireless device. it can transmit data wirelessly as well as by wires. you have said that neural data cannot be sent wirelessly. prove it. show me a quote that says it can't be sent wirelessly. directly does not mean wirelessly, it just means directly. or otherwise, perhaps you'd like to explain how an implanted commlink can use an external sim module otherwise? according to the rules this works fine. passing neural signals through the air does not magically change them into something else, any more than passing them through a wire does. [edit] and trodes DON'T need physical contact with the brain. which pretty much takes your "requires physical contact with the brain" argument, and shoots it out of the air. [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Dec 18 2006, 05:24 AM |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:23 AM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Technomancer sections... :P
In all reality, Jack and Charon are right. I dont know why you are being so stubborn about this, Jaid... |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:26 AM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
actually, you know what? screw this thread too. i am officially ignoring this thread as well, because this is just a waste of my time too. so forget it, i'm not discussing this anymore. you want to pull rules out of your butt about not being able to wirelessly send neural data, then fine. throw yourself a party. there is no proof that neural data can't be sent wirelessly.
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Dec 18 2006, 05:33 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 337 Joined: 1-September 06 From: LI, New York Member No.: 9,286 |
technically... there are no rules to say that they can. Not that I'm taking sides in that argument, BUT.... You are the one pulling rules out of your butt in another thread by saying the ultrasound system needs further cyber to make functional to the user. I find it interesting how you can chastise people on this thread for doing the exact same thing you are doing on another! There is a word for doing that, I belive it begins with "H". |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:39 AM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
:eek: You're trying to be funny or something? Simsense module - fiberoptic cable - datajack. That's what it means.
Poor Jaid, he is the only one to see the truth. How can the rest of the world be so blind? Of course neural data can be sent wirelessly. How would hack otherwise? The problem is and has always been your claim that you can use your own hot-sim to create an hot-sim situation in someone else who doesn't even have the hardware for it. What about wired reflex? Can you use your own wire reflex to wirelessly connect to someone else and speed them up? All right, go throw yourself a pity party. You are a misunderstood genius. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:47 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
If neural signals could be sent wirelessly why would you have a sim module? You'd just receive and send all data as neural signals. His arguments make the existence of sim modules rather pointless. Also if you look at cyberware DNI isn't wireless and its the alternative to wireless controlled cyberware.
He's wants his hackers to be able to force matrix combat on those not jacked into the matrix. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:48 AM
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#73
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Who cares to guess what kind of PC he prefers? |
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Dec 18 2006, 06:15 AM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
An invulnerable superhero. |
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Dec 18 2006, 06:26 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Now now everyone lets not pick on Jaid. Its not right that we go flaming him and stuff. Now that I've covered by butt good night.
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