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Willthechased
Is Bioware considered Cyberware? Can it be 'hacked' by say a Technomancer just as easily as anything else? Is this covered in the core book and I just missed it???
Thanks in advance!
-W-
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Willthechased)
Is Bioware considered Cyberware? Can it be 'hacked' by say a Technomancer just as easily as anything else? Is this covered in the core book and I just missed it???
Thanks in advance!
-W-

Without machinery you would have to assume that there's nothing to be hacked. Thus another example of why bioware is worth the extra scratch.
Charon
QUOTE (Willthechased)
Is Bioware considered Cyberware? Can it be 'hacked' by say a Technomancer just as easily as anything else?

They didn't specifically state that bioware can't be hacked AFAIK because it's such common sense but nowhere will you find a mention that bioware has wireless functionality.

They never say you can't hack a soy-burger either but you gotta assume you can't, right?
Mikado
Can a hacker or technomancer hack a regular, uncybered person? Bioware is made of the same stuff as everything else in a (meta)human body, cells. They have no wireless connection or computer. Well, they have a computer but not in the same sense as one capable of WiFi.

What if... You got a cerebral booster made from cells of a technomancer? No, wait that will not work because a cerebral booster needs to be cloned from your own cells. would work in an Emo Samurai game though. spin.gif Just kidding with you Emo.

Would make for an interesting run though and IIRC there was a canned mission for SR3 for something like this.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Willthechased @ Dec 14 2006, 09:35 PM)
Is Bioware considered Cyberware?  Can it be 'hacked' by say a Technomancer just as easily as anything else?

They didn't specifically state that bioware can't be hacked AFAIK because it's such common sense but nowhere will you find a mention that bioware has wireless functionality.

They never say you can't hack a soy-burger either but you gotta assume you can't, right?

Eh, I figure if a hacker really wants to try, let em.

Besides, it's likely that sooner or later someone will develop nanite based flavoring.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Willthechased)
Is Bioware considered Cyberware? Can it be 'hacked' by say a Technomancer just as easily as anything else?

Sure. The Technomancer should be able to wield the cleaver, though.
ixombie
You can hack bioware!

It's called "Control Actions" nyahnyah.gif

t3h h4x0rz!!!1won!
Kesslan
Huh? I thought you 'hacked' it with an axe? lick.gif
ShadowDragon8685
The axe is a metaphor for a logic-bomb which reduces the target's ability to resist your slave-system metaphor.
Serbitar
You can not hack bioware.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 14 2006, 08:41 PM)
QUOTE (Willthechased @ Dec 14 2006, 09:35 PM)
Is Bioware considered Cyberware?  Can it be 'hacked' by say a Technomancer just as easily as anything else?

They didn't specifically state that bioware can't be hacked AFAIK because it's such common sense but nowhere will you find a mention that bioware has wireless functionality.

They never say you can't hack a soy-burger either but you gotta assume you can't, right?

Eh, I figure if a hacker really wants to try, let em.

Besides, it's likely that sooner or later someone will develop nanite based flavoring.

that will, after you have eaten said burger, relocate to some area of your body and create a small rfid chip that will tell anyone interested what burger you have eaten and so on.

over time your body will be so full of them that your a walking mcsoy billboard, and when scanned could perhaps be used to check the price changes over time (and your preferred kind of burger)...

really nasty stuff...
Jaid
i dunno... you might be able to 'hack' bioware through the use of psyschotropic IC.
djinni
QUOTE (Jaid)
i dunno... you might be able to 'hack' bioware through the use of psyschotropic IC.

on the thoughts of nanites, they'd have a signal rating of 0 (3m) theoretically you could hack the nanites to express the bioware in a specific fashion. ie not emit adrenaline, or to damage the body like the "cutters" of SR3
Jack Kain
What bioware uses nanites?
Jaid
QUOTE (djinni @ Dec 15 2006, 01:28 PM)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 15 2006, 09:52 AM)
i dunno... you might be able to 'hack' bioware through the use of psyschotropic IC.

on the thoughts of nanites, they'd have a signal rating of 0 (3m) theoretically you could hack the nanites to express the bioware in a specific fashion. ie not emit adrenaline, or to damage the body like the "cutters" of SR3

is this a misquote? i'm trying to figure out what this has to do with psychotropic IC...

[edit] based on you doing what appears to be the same thing in another thread (quoting me again, oddly enough). i think you're looking at the wrong quote button wink.gif which isn't a problem, it just leads to your post quite possibly having nothing to do with what you quoted... [/edit]
djinni
intended to quote the message above yours.
Exodus
yeah but at the nano level, do you really think the nanites would have the capability of having the hardware to send/recieve wireless signals? or even have the power to broadcast it a meter? Honestly I only see you being able to manipulate nanites wirelessly if the host has some kind of hive attached to them.
Moon-Hawk
Sure. They could act as an antenna array.
I'm not sure exactly how feasible that would be, that depends on the particulars of the construction of the fictitious nanites, but the principle of antenna arrays is sound. Physics allows it. smile.gif
Jack Kain
This all assumes nantites are a part of bioware which they are not so the question is moot.
Moon-Hawk
Well, symbiotes could accurately be described as nanites, although perhaps not the type people are thinking of here.
Also, I would expect that the implantation/integration of many types of bioware involve nanites at some point.
I don't think the discussion is completely useless.
Rotbart van Dainig
Yes, at some point - surgery and extended care.

Afterwards, the nanites have long run out of power...
Cynic project
QUOTE (Mikado)
Can a hacker or technomancer hack a regular, uncybered person? Bioware is made of the same stuff as everything else in a (meta)human body, cells. They have no wireless connection or computer. Well, they have a computer but not in the same sense as one capable of WiFi.

What if... You got a cerebral booster made from cells of a technomancer? No, wait that will not work because a cerebral booster needs to be cloned from your own cells. would work in an Emo Samurai game though. spin.gif Just kidding with you Emo.

Would make for an interesting run though and IIRC there was a canned mission for SR3 for something like this.

Are technomancers made of diffrent stuff than you or me?.....
Moon-Hawk
@Rotbart: Oh, well I agree with that.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 15 2006, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 14 2006, 09:49 PM)
Can a hacker or technomancer hack a regular, uncybered person? Bioware is made of the same stuff as everything else in a (meta)human body, cells. They have no wireless connection or computer. Well, they have a computer but not in the same sense as one capable of WiFi.

What if... You got a cerebral booster made from cells of a technomancer? No, wait that will not work because a cerebral booster needs to be cloned from your own cells. would work in an Emo Samurai game though.  spin.gif  Just kidding with you Emo.

Would make for an interesting run though and IIRC there was a canned mission for SR3 for something like this.

Are technomancers made of diffrent stuff than you or me?.....


Yes they are made from diffrent stuff, otherwise they would be mundane instead of techomancers.
djinni
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Afterwards, the nanites have long run out of power...

not out of power since they don't run on the same power normal robots do, but rendered inert from wireless signals or programming and the body passes them like any waste, if you knew the signal to active them though...
if not..the medkit biodoc program would have active nanites, ready for injection.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 15 2006, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 14 2006, 09:49 PM)
Can a hacker or technomancer hack a regular, uncybered person? Bioware is made of the same stuff as everything else in a (meta)human body, cells. They have no wireless connection or computer. Well, they have a computer but not in the same sense as one capable of WiFi.

What if... You got a cerebral booster made from cells of a technomancer? No, wait that will not work because a cerebral booster needs to be cloned from your own cells. would work in an Emo Samurai game though.  spin.gif  Just kidding with you Emo.

Would make for an interesting run though and IIRC there was a canned mission for SR3 for something like this.

Are technomancers made of diffrent stuff than you or me?.....


Yes they are made from diffrent stuff, otherwise they would be mundane instead of techomancers.

So, one day do you think they will beable to make them?
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 15 2006, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 14 2006, 09:49 PM)
Can a hacker or technomancer hack a regular, uncybered person? Bioware is made of the same stuff as everything else in a (meta)human body, cells. They have no wireless connection or computer. Well, they have a computer but not in the same sense as one capable of WiFi.

What if... You got a cerebral booster made from cells of a technomancer? No, wait that will not work because a cerebral booster needs to be cloned from your own cells. would work in an Emo Samurai game though.† spin.gif† Just kidding with you Emo.

Would make for an interesting run though and IIRC there was a canned mission for SR3 for something like this.

Are technomancers made of diffrent stuff than you or me?.....


Yes they are made from diffrent stuff, otherwise they would be mundane instead of techomancers.

I think he is asking if you think that they are made from materials that other homo sapiens are not made from.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (djinni @ Dec 15 2006, 03:51 PM)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 15 2006, 04:43 PM)
Afterwards, the nanites have long run out of power...

not out of power since they don't run on the same power normal robots do, but rendered inert from wireless signals or programming and the body passes them like any waste, if you knew the signal to active them though...
if not..the medkit biodoc program would have active nanites, ready for injection.

Once the wireless signal if turned off it can't be turned back on wirelessly. Otherwise it never have been off. And once inert they wouldn't last more then a day or so in the human body. Its also likly that nanties would be expensive and the hostipal would retrive the nanites after surgery. Due to there size they can't exactly pass on virus and stuff.


You can't hack bioware any more then you can hack a hellhound taken as presented out of the book.

If you could inject nantites to somehow "hack" bioware then by that same logic you could just hack anybody even mages by injecting nanites.

If you want to "hack" bioware. Play a mage and use mind control magic.
Moon-Hawk
There was a little confusion earlier, but I am also firmly in the "no hacking bioware" camp.
My only point was that nanites could potentially be treated as a device and hacked, but it would be difficult at best.
djinni
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Once the wireless signal if turned off it can't be turned back on wirelessly. Otherwise it never have been off. And once inert they wouldn't last more then a day or so in the human body. Its also likly that nanties would be expensive and the hostipal would retrive the nanites after surgery.

since nanotech is everywhere they aren't as expensive as you might think.
since you don't have a hardwire switch on a stealth RFID tags, the technology should be the same for nanites.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE
Yes they are made from diffrent stuff, otherwise they would be mundane instead of techomancers.

So, one day do you think they will beable to make them?

Well, the Corps are sure trying pretty hard to do just that in the Sixth World. wink.gif
Mikado
QUOTE
Are technomancers made of diffrent stuff than you or me?.....

Yes, in a manner they are. They can generate high powered EM fields with their brains. Can communicate with WiFi without the use of additional hardware.
I was suggesting that one could use the cultured gray matter from a technomancer as a cerebral booster there by granting a mundane Resonance.
Would I allow this in my game? Only as a potential plot device. (or if a player started with a latent equivalent quality)
Would it work? By the book, no. Neural tissue needs to be cultured from the person it is to benefit. However, ignoring the book, there is the blood-brain barrier to consider. Antibodies and white blood cells (IIRC, biology is not my strong field) are to big to cross it so it would reduce the chance of the body rejecting the added tissue. Would you really want to risk a brain infection though?
fistandantilus4.0
random tangent to that, but IIRC, it was Technobabble, if I have the title correct (The one w/ Deus and Ronin), he (Ronin) was jacked in to a computer and a doc was examing him because he was a technomancer and they were trying to learn more about them. Because the Doc had a data jack, Ronin was able to hack the guys brain. Been a long time since I read it, and don't have the book handy, so maybe some one else can add more to that train of thought.
Mikado
QUOTE
random tangent to that, but IIRC, it was Technobabble, if I have the title correct

I'm not sure. The one I'm thinking of took place in England or Ireland and the cyberdeck had organic components (read: brains...) Then again I could just be remembering one of my GM's homemade runs. It has been 6 or 7 years...
Fortune
Sounds like Black Madonna ...
Grinder
Iirc Ronin didn't appear in Black Madonna.
Charon
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Dec 16 2006, 07:56 AM)
random tangent to that, but IIRC, it was Technobabble, if I have the title correct (The one w/ Deus and Ronin), he (Ronin) was jacked in to a computer and a doc was

That would be TechnoBabel.

Babel was the biblical/hebrew name for Babylon. Though when we use it in a modern context it's almost always in reference to the Tower of Babel, a tower that mankind was building to reach the heaven. God being a jealous ass through most of the ancient testament, He figured that men should blindly worship him instead of trying to achieve anything of worth and so broke the common language shared by humanity so that the builders would become confused and divided, thus causing the tower to fail. The builders then scattered and this myth is the biblical explanation for why there are thousands of culture when God supposedly created us all 7000 years ago or so.

So the Babel myth comes up when you are either bemoaning the fact that communication is made difficult by so many language and culture or when you make an effort to create an universal language so that we may resume the pre-Babel degree of communion.
Mikado
Well, the run I was on did not involve Deus since our group was still a few years behind the SR timeline. When we stopped playing we where still 4 or 5 in game months from Shutdown.

Edit: We are straying from the question.
Charon
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 16 2006, 01:35 PM)
Edit: We are straying from the question.

I thought we settled the question.

You can't hack flesh. We might as well chat about anything else we feel like.

---

In Technobabel the Otaku didn't "hack" the brain. It's was like a pychotropic IC effect.

Currently we have no rules for those and the closest to "hack" another hacker's brain we have is killing him with a Black Hammer. Obviously when psychotropic IC make a comeback in the rules we'll get that option too.

But I can bet you anything you want right here that the designers will never allow for the use of psychotropic IC on someone who isn't running hot VR. Therefore anything approaching the possibility of "hacking" the street sam's bioware is never gonna make it into the official rules and probably in no housegame either except maybe that of a spineless GM with a girlfriend playing a hacker.
Jaid
QUOTE (Charon)
But I can bet you anything you want right here that the designers will never allow for the use of psychotropic IC on someone who isn't running hot VR.  Therefore anything approaching the possibility of "hacking" the street sam's bioware is never gonna make it into the official rules and probably in no housegame either except maybe that of a spineless GM with a girlfriend playing a hacker.

use your imagination. sim modules (including illegal, hotsim modified versions) do not have to be physically attached to the person... only a DNI and a wireless route to said DNI.

so, for example, if someone is wearing trodes and you hack their commlink (or trodes, or whatever), you can proceed to subscribe them to the hotsim module, turn it on (full hotsim VR), make sure it does not have the hardware to switch off connected to wireless, and beat their brains into a gooey paste... your wendigo friends will just love the flavor of the new brain shake™ wink.gif
Charon
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 16 2006, 06:36 PM)
so, for example, if someone is wearing trodes and you hack their commlink (or trodes, or whatever), you can proceed to subscribe them to the hotsim module, turn it on (full hotsim VR), make sure it does not have the hardware to switch off connected to wireless, and beat their brains into a gooey paste... your wendigo friends will just love the flavor of the new brain shake™ wink.gif

Hot sim is illegal and most commlink simply can't do it. Hacker have to modify their hardware in order to go hot (Takes a Logic + Hardware Test 10 extended test with intervals of 1 hour).

The commlink of Joe citizen or for that matter Sammie the Samurai? Can't do that. Its hardware doesn't support a hot VR and no amount of hacking will change that.

So basically your ploy of frying the brain works mostly against... hackers and a handful of BTL Junkie. There's already a program called Black Hammer for the first group, you know. For the junkie I mostly don't care but if I need to murder one I'd rather slip him a defective chips and simulate an accident.
Jaid
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 16 2006, 06:36 PM)
so, for example, if someone is wearing trodes and you hack their commlink (or trodes, or whatever), you can proceed to subscribe them to the hotsim module, turn it on (full hotsim VR), make sure it does not have the hardware to switch off connected to wireless, and beat their brains into a gooey paste... your wendigo friends will just love the flavor of the new brain shake™ wink.gif

Hot sim is illegal and most commlink simply can't do it. Hacker have to modify their hardware in order to go hot (Takes a Logic + Hardware Test 10 extended test with intervals of 1 hour).

The commlink of Joe citizen or for that matter Sammie the Samurai? Can't do that. Its hardware doesn't support a hot VR and no amount of hacking will change that.

So basically your ploy of frying the brain works mostly against... hackers and a handful of BTL Junkie. There's already a program called Black Hammer for the first group, you know. For the junkie I mostly don't care but if I need to murder one I'd rather slip him a defective chips and simulate an accident.

no, you're not getting it.

of course Joe average doesn't have a sim module modified for hotsim. this is merely a minor speedbump, because the sim module does not have to be physically contacting you, or attached to your commlink by a wire.

all it needs is that somewhere, a hotsim commlink is hooked up to your system, and you have a DNI. provided those two things are satisfied, a hacker can force you into full VR (provided they can take over your commlink) and hit you with the blackest IC they have.

now then, my point is simple: if you have taken over their commlink, it makes absolutely no fragging difference whether the hotsim module is yours or theres. all you need to do is take a hotsim module of your own, subscribe it to their system, and presto, you can force them into full VR. it's that simple. i don't care how likely it is that they have the hardware, because i'm not relying on *their* hardware, i'm bringing my own to the party.

your comment is about as relevant to my point as discussing the usefulness of pepper punch based on the probability of the person drinking a glass full of it would be relevant to a post about spraying someone in the face with it.

you are saying "people don't just drink pepper punch", and i am saying "i know, that's why you spray it in their face".

therefore, as long as a person has a DNI (and with the affordability of trodes and datajacks, and the importance of the role of simsense in the sixth world, most will), you can hook them up to your own hotsim module (note, this is another minor error you made: whether you are capable of hotsim has absolutely nothing to do with your commlink, and everything to do with your sim module, a separate device which can be wirelessly connected to your commlink) and do whatever you want to them.
Charon
It's you who is not getting it. You want to have the hot VR signal pass through several piece of a chain where most can't sustain it. But chains are only as strong as their weakest link.

You want to go something like :Hot VR commlink (yours) - Cold VR or simple AR commlink (his) - some cyberware device - DNI - brain or some variant thereof and you believe that it allows you to run circle around the rules who already state that Hot VR - Cold VR (or AR) doesn't allow for lethal bio-feedback.

Doesn't change a thing : You're stopped cold (pun intended) on the commlink. You can't give him lethal biofeed back because his commlink doesn't take it and therefore obviously can't transmit it to any other part of any chain you can imagine. And for the record, I believe most cyberware can't sustain hot VR anymore than a standard commlink can. As for DNI, it's asinine ; If the signal could reach the DNI it's already in the killzone anyway (the brain). The lethal biofeedback isn't a line of code, it's, well, lethal biofeedback. If it reaches the brain and you're fried. Obviously it needs a pathway that can sustain such an intense signal in the first place. Like a Hot VR enabled commlink. Or conceivably a junkie running a sim module modified for BTLs.

QUOTE
you are saying "people don't just drink pepper punch", and i am saying "i know, that's why you spray it in their face".


No, I'm saying people with no eyes don't care if you spray them in the face with pepper punch.
Jack Kain
A comlink can't wirelessly connect to someones brain. (unless there a technomancer) it requires things like trodes or a datajack.


Jaid remember its a hardware test to make a comlink accept hot sim. Not a software test. That means you have to physically modifiy the comlink. No amount of software hacking will do this for you.
Jaid
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
A comlink can't wirelessly connect to someones brain. (unless there a technomancer) it requires things like trodes or a datajack.


Jaid remember its a hardware test to make a comlink accept hot sim. Not a software test. That means you have to physically modifiy the comlink. No amount of software hacking will do this for you.

NO, it is not a hardware test to modify a commlink, it's a hardware test to modify a regular sim module. not commlink. sim module. the commlink has dick all to do with VR, cold or hot. the only things that matter in the slightest are the fragging sim module, and presence of DNI. that is ALL you need. period. end of discussion.

and Charon, you still aren't getting it. why the frag would you route your hotsim through their coldsim or AR? the situation i am talking about is that you OWN their commlink. you can completely ignore the fact that they have coldsim, or that they are running AR, because my point is that if you take over their commlink, you can turn on hotsim VR for them (provided they have DNI). it means absolutely nothing if they have coldsim VR or even AR running previously, because you aren't sending anything through those, you are hooking up your hotsim module to THEIR commlink, and piping that information directly through THEIR DNI into THEIR brain. you are completely bypassing whatever method they were previously using (unless it is also hotsim) and inserting in it's place hotsim full VR. you are not adding this on to the end, you are kicking out the middle piece that they were using and replacing it with something else.
Konsaki
QUOTE (BBB pg318)

Sim Module: The sim module is an ASIST interface
that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer
signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user
to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality
(see Virtual Reality, p. 228). A sim module must be accessed
via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted
commlink, etc).
Standard (legal) sim modules only interpret cold sim
(see p. 229). It is possible to modify a sim module to allow the
user to experience hot sim (p. 229) and BTLs (p. 250) with a
Hardware + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended Test, but this also
makes the user more vulnerable to Black IC programs.
As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor
functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense, so
that you donít blindly thrash around in the real world and
potentially injure yourself or break things. This means that
your physical body is limp while youíre online, as if you were
sleeping. This reticular activation system (RAS) override
can also be disabled with a Hardware + Logic (5, 1 hour)
Extended Test, at the userís own risk.


Discounting TMs, without a Sim Module, you arnt going VR. It's hardwired to be Cold Sim from the start and protects you from over stimuli of Black ICE. You have to perform a hardware test to make it Hot Sim.
Charon
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 17 2006, 09:28 PM)
and Charon, you still aren't getting it. why the frag would you route your hotsim through their coldsim or AR?†

Because you have to.

QUOTE
i am talking about is that you OWN their commlink. you can completely ignore the fact that they have coldsim, or that they are running AR, because my point is that if you take over their commlink, you can turn on hotsim VR for them (provided they have DNI).


Because for the third or fourth time in this thread we are telling you you can't "turn on the hotsim VR for them" unless your target already has the modified equipment required to go on hotsim by himeself. You can't do that because the commlink you have just taken over most likely is physically unable to go on hot sim until it has been modified by a harware test!

If you are suggesting that you can turn on the hotsim on an unmodified sim module, you are wrong.

If you are suggesting that you can ignore the fact their sim module doesn't go hot and just connect to some other piece instead you are tripping and making up stuff as you go.

QUOTE
, and piping that information directly through THEIR DNI into THEIR brain. you are completely bypassing whatever method they were previously using (unless it is also hotsim) and inserting in it's place hotsim full VR.


Get it out of your head that you can bypass their simmodule. You can't. If that sim module can't do hot sim (lwhich is 99% of the time at least) you are out of luck with your brain frying scheme.

This is like trying to force a 56 k/s dial up modem to accept 1 gig/s.

But my connection is really fast! So I'll just shove my data directly inside the computer! Whee!

I really don't care how good a hacker you are, you ain't feeding more than 56 K/s through that dial up modem because that's all it can take. And you can't magically turn the dial up modem into high speed connection by the force of your wishful thinking.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 17 2006, 12:39 PM)
A comlink can't wirelessly connect to someones brain. (unless there a technomancer) it requires things like trodes or a datajack.


Jaid remember its a hardware test to make a comlink accept hot sim. Not a software test. That means you have to physically modifiy the comlink. No amount of software hacking will do this for you.

NO, it is not a hardware test to modify a commlink, it's a hardware test to modify a regular sim module. not commlink. sim module. the commlink has dick all to do with VR, cold or hot. the only things that matter in the slightest are the fragging sim module, and presence of DNI. that is ALL you need. period. end of discussion.

and Charon, you still aren't getting it. why the frag would you route your hotsim through their coldsim or AR? the situation i am talking about is that you OWN their commlink. you can completely ignore the fact that they have coldsim, or that they are running AR, because my point is that if you take over their commlink, you can turn on hotsim VR for them (provided they have DNI). it means absolutely nothing if they have coldsim VR or even AR running previously, because you aren't sending anything through those, you are hooking up your hotsim module to THEIR commlink, and piping that information directly through THEIR DNI into THEIR brain. you are completely bypassing whatever method they were previously using (unless it is also hotsim) and inserting in it's place hotsim full VR. you are not adding this on to the end, you are kicking out the middle piece that they were using and replacing it with something else.

Jaid READ THE RULES again. It may not be a hardware test on the comlink but its still a hardware test, meaning hacking won't change wether the sim module HARDWARE accepts hot sim. Sim Sense is software.

Sim Module, Page 222
"A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim
module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack
or trode net."

The Sim Module is PART of the comlink. So you can't send the signal through the comlink into their, brain you have to use an attached sim module. Its not software either so you can't load in your own. Thats like hacking into my laptop and instailing DVD burner and a new video card. It doesn't work.

Your idea of the hacker using his own hot sim module, doesn't work because the hot sim module wouldn't be able to connect to the target correctly. The hot sim sends out its lethal biofeedback into what? the targets DNI? no wireless signal of its own. The comlink? the comlink can't handle those signals thats why you have the sim module to begain with.

How does the hacker using his own sim module work? the sim module sends its data into the brain via datajack or trodes.
Jaid
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 17 2006, 10:00 PM)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 17 2006, 09:28 PM)
and Charon, you still aren't getting it. why the frag would you route your hotsim through their coldsim or AR?†

Because you have to.

QUOTE
i am talking about is that you OWN their commlink. you can completely ignore the fact that they have coldsim, or that they are running AR, because my point is that if you take over their commlink, you can turn on hotsim VR for them (provided they have DNI).


Because for the third or fourth time in this thread we are telling you you can't "tun on the hotsim VR for them" unless your target is a hacker or a junkie who has already modified his sim module to accept hot sim. You can't do that because the commlink you have just taken over most likely is physically unable to go on hot sim until it has been modified by a harware test!

You're like a super athele mage who wants to cast mind control on a paraplegic and make him run 100 meter under 10s. Can't you see the limitations of the subject you have subverted?

If you are suggesting that you can turn on their sim module to hot, you are wrong. Its is explicitly stated that the module needs to be physically modified and it takes a few hours to do so.

If you are suggesting that you can ignore the fact their sim module doesn't go hot and just connect to some other piece instead you are tripping. If there isn't a sim module running hot on the target, there is nothing else that can accept the hot sim signal.

QUOTE
, and piping that information directly through THEIR DNI into THEIR brain. you are completely bypassing whatever method they were previously using (unless it is also hotsim) and inserting in it's place hotsim full VR.


Get it out of your head that you can bypass their simmodule. You can't.

This is like trying to force a 56 k/s dial up modem to accept 1 gig/s.

But my connection is really fast! So I'll just shove my data directly inside the computer! Whee!

I really don't care how good a hacker you are, you ain't feeding more than 56 K/s through that dial up modem because that's all it can take. And you can't magically turn the dial up modem into high speed connection by the force of your wishful thinking.

i am beginning to wonder if you are intentionally ignoring what i am saying.

ok, listen again:

our protagonist, Bob Hacker, has an extra hotsim module. he hacks Joe Average's commlink. now, being an average joe, Joe probably has a sim module actually (for viewing his collection of simflicks) and may even own a hotsim module if he's addicted to BTLs, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume that Joe has unsubscribed his theoretical sim module entirely and is using only an image link, sound link, and DNI for some reason.

Bob is mad at Joe (maybe Joe complained bob wasn't a very good tech support worked and cost Bob his job or something), so Bob is going to get back at Joe by murdering him, which conveniently provides us with this example scenario. Of course, since Bob (whose last name is an excellent indicater of his skills) is not very good with a gun but is quite skilled at hacking, he decides to use black IC to kill Joe.

frustratingly, once he hacks in to Joe's commlink, he finds that Joe doesn't have any sort of simsense capabilities whatsoever. so Bob take's control of Joe's commlink, and adds his own (ie Bob's) extra hotsim module to Joe's commlink's subscription list. he then instructs Joe's commlink to stop using AR to communicate with Joe, and to use the sim module he's just subscribed instead. since Joe's commlink does not require any modifications whatsoever to run hotsim, (the commlink has nothing to do with this) all that is needed are a hotsim module (provided courtesy of Bob), and a DNI, which Joe has (unfortunately for him). now that Joe has been forced into full hotsim VR, Bob proceeds to attack him with his black hammer program. unfortunately for Joe, he's very much average... he has no cybercombat skill, 3 willpower, and is not running a biofeedback filter (after all, he wasn't expecting to be using VR at all, and even if he was he certainly wasn't expecting to face cybercombat with a black hammer armed opponent), and no edge (he's an unimportant NPC, professional rating 0 probably). Joe is pretty much horribly screwed over, and is going to die at the hands of Bob, who has a much better dice pool and much better combat programs. poor Joe.

now then, notice that this situation, which i have been describing repeatedly, does not require anything on the part of Joe average except that he have a DNI? he could have not even been using AR, and it would have still worked on him, so long as he has a DNI. the DNI might not have even been active, and it still wouldn't have protected him, although it might have added another step to the process if the DNI was not subscribed to Joe's commlink. what kind of commlink Joe has is irrelevant. what kind of sim module (hot, cold, or nonexistant) is not relevant, and neither is the method Joe is using to access the matrix or the commlink (video screen, trideo/hologram projector, AR, hotsim VR, coldsim VR, or nothing). as long as Joe has a DNI, this basic sequence results in the ability to force Joe into cybercombat in hotsim VR. even the commlink is unnecessary. Bob could use an extra commlink, his own commlink, or even just skip the commlink entirely and hack the DNI device directly instead.

do you understand now what i have been saying?

[edit]
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
How does the hacker using his own sim module work? the sim module sends its data into the brain via datajack or trodes.
exactly. and datajacks and trodes (and the commlink, if you want to add that into the mess, and the sim module too) are all, by default, wireless devices. every last one of them. therefore, by having a sim module anywhere with a wireless path to a given commlink, that given commlink can access simsense signals. [/edit]
Konsaki
It doesnt work that way, Jaid... the Sim Module has to be physically connected to the victims commlink. If he doesnt have it, he doesnt have it. The only way you can add one would be to grab his commlink and attach a Sim module to it physically.
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