Without machinery you would have to assume that there's nothing to be hacked. Thus another example of why bioware is worth the extra scratch.

They didn't specifically state that bioware can't be hacked AFAIK because it's such common sense but nowhere will you find a mention that bioware has wireless functionality.

They never say you can't hack a soy-burger either but you gotta assume you can't, right?

Eh, I figure if a hacker really wants to try, let em.

Besides, it's likely that sooner or later someone will develop nanite based flavoring.

Sure. The Technomancer should be able to wield the cleaver, though.

that will, after you have eaten said burger, relocate to some area of your body and create a small rfid chip that will tell anyone interested what burger you have eaten and so on.

over time your body will be so full of them that your a walking mcsoy billboard, and when scanned could perhaps be used to check the price changes over time (and your preferred kind of burger)...

really nasty stuff...

on the thoughts of nanites, they'd have a signal rating of 0 (3m) theoretically you could hack the nanites to express the bioware in a specific fashion. ie not emit adrenaline, or to damage the body like the "cutters" of SR3

is this a misquote? i'm trying to figure out what this has to do with psychotropic IC...

[edit] based on you doing what appears to be the same thing in another thread (quoting me again, oddly enough). i think you're looking at the wrong quote button which isn't a problem, it just leads to your post quite possibly having nothing to do with what you quoted... [/edit]

Are technomancers made of diffrent stuff than you or me?.....

Yes they are made from diffrent stuff, otherwise they would be mundane instead of techomancers.

not out of power since they don't run on the same power normal robots do, but rendered inert from wireless signals or programming and the body passes them like any waste, if you knew the signal to active them though...
if not..the medkit biodoc program would have active nanites, ready for injection.

So, one day do you think they will beable to make them?

I think he is asking if you think that they are made from materials that other homo sapiens are not made from.

Once the wireless signal if turned off it can't be turned back on wirelessly. Otherwise it never have been off. And once inert they wouldn't last more then a day or so in the human body. Its also likly that nanties would be expensive and the hostipal would retrive the nanites after surgery. Due to there size they can't exactly pass on virus and stuff.


You can't hack bioware any more then you can hack a hellhound taken as presented out of the book.

If you could inject nantites to somehow "hack" bioware then by that same logic you could just hack anybody even mages by injecting nanites.

If you want to "hack" bioware. Play a mage and use mind control magic.

since nanotech is everywhere they aren't as expensive as you might think.
since you don't have a hardwire switch on a stealth RFID tags, the technology should be the same for nanites.

Well, the Corps are sure trying pretty hard to do just that in the Sixth World.

Yes, in a manner they are. They can generate high powered EM fields with their brains. Can communicate with WiFi without the use of additional hardware.
I was suggesting that one could use the cultured gray matter from a technomancer as a cerebral booster there by granting a mundane Resonance.
Would I allow this in my game? Only as a potential plot device. (or if a player started with a latent equivalent quality)
Would it work? By the book, no. Neural tissue needs to be cultured from the person it is to benefit. However, ignoring the book, there is the blood-brain barrier to consider. Antibodies and white blood cells (IIRC, biology is not my strong field) are to big to cross it so it would reduce the chance of the body rejecting the added tissue. Would you really want to risk a brain infection though?

I'm not sure. The one I'm thinking of took place in England or Ireland and the cyberdeck had organic components (read: brains...) Then again I could just be remembering one of my GM's homemade runs. It has been 6 or 7 years...

That would be TechnoBabel.

Babel was the biblical/hebrew name for Babylon. Though when we use it in a modern context it's almost always in reference to the Tower of Babel, a tower that mankind was building to reach the heaven. God being a jealous ass through most of the ancient testament, He figured that men should blindly worship him instead of trying to achieve anything of worth and so broke the common language shared by humanity so that the builders would become confused and divided, thus causing the tower to fail. The builders then scattered and this myth is the biblical explanation for why there are thousands of culture when God supposedly created us all 7000 years ago or so.

So the Babel myth comes up when you are either bemoaning the fact that communication is made difficult by so many language and culture or when you make an effort to create an universal language so that we may resume the pre-Babel degree of communion.

I thought we settled the question.

You can't hack flesh. We might as well chat about anything else we feel like.

---

In Technobabel the Otaku didn't "hack" the brain. It's was like a pychotropic IC effect.

Currently we have no rules for those and the closest to "hack" another hacker's brain we have is killing him with a Black Hammer. Obviously when psychotropic IC make a comeback in the rules we'll get that option too.

But I can bet you anything you want right here that the designers will never allow for the use of psychotropic IC on someone who isn't running hot VR. Therefore anything approaching the possibility of "hacking" the street sam's bioware is never gonna make it into the official rules and probably in no housegame either except maybe that of a spineless GM with a girlfriend playing a hacker.

use your imagination. sim modules (including illegal, hotsim modified versions) do not have to be physically attached to the person... only a DNI and a wireless route to said DNI.

so, for example, if someone is wearing trodes and you hack their commlink (or trodes, or whatever), you can proceed to subscribe them to the hotsim module, turn it on (full hotsim VR), make sure it does not have the hardware to switch off connected to wireless, and beat their brains into a gooey paste... your wendigo friends will just love the flavor of the new brain shake™

Hot sim is illegal and most commlink simply can't do it. Hacker have to modify their hardware in order to go hot (Takes a Logic + Hardware Test 10 extended test with intervals of 1 hour).

The commlink of Joe citizen or for that matter Sammie the Samurai? Can't do that. Its hardware doesn't support a hot VR and no amount of hacking will change that.

So basically your ploy of frying the brain works mostly against... hackers and a handful of BTL Junkie. There's already a program called Black Hammer for the first group, you know. For the junkie I mostly don't care but if I need to murder one I'd rather slip him a defective chips and simulate an accident.

no, you're not getting it.

of course Joe average doesn't have a sim module modified for hotsim. this is merely a minor speedbump, because the sim module does not have to be physically contacting you, or attached to your commlink by a wire.

all it needs is that somewhere, a hotsim commlink is hooked up to your system, and you have a DNI. provided those two things are satisfied, a hacker can force you into full VR (provided they can take over your commlink) and hit you with the blackest IC they have.

now then, my point is simple: if you have taken over their commlink, it makes absolutely no fragging difference whether the hotsim module is yours or theres. all you need to do is take a hotsim module of your own, subscribe it to their system, and presto, you can force them into full VR. it's that simple. i don't care how likely it is that they have the hardware, because i'm not relying on *their* hardware, i'm bringing my own to the party.

your comment is about as relevant to my point as discussing the usefulness of pepper punch based on the probability of the person drinking a glass full of it would be relevant to a post about spraying someone in the face with it.

you are saying "people don't just drink pepper punch", and i am saying "i know, that's why you spray it in their face".

therefore, as long as a person has a DNI (and with the affordability of trodes and datajacks, and the importance of the role of simsense in the sixth world, most will), you can hook them up to your own hotsim module (note, this is another minor error you made: whether you are capable of hotsim has absolutely nothing to do with your commlink, and everything to do with your sim module, a separate device which can be wirelessly connected to your commlink) and do whatever you want to them.

No, I'm saying people with no eyes don't care if you spray them in the face with pepper punch.

NO, it is not a hardware test to modify a commlink, it's a hardware test to modify a regular sim module. not commlink. sim module. the commlink has dick all to do with VR, cold or hot. the only things that matter in the slightest are the fragging sim module, and presence of DNI. that is ALL you need. period. end of discussion.

and Charon, you still aren't getting it. why the frag would you route your hotsim through their coldsim or AR? the situation i am talking about is that you OWN their commlink. you can completely ignore the fact that they have coldsim, or that they are running AR, because my point is that if you take over their commlink, you can turn on hotsim VR for them (provided they have DNI). it means absolutely nothing if they have coldsim VR or even AR running previously, because you aren't sending anything through those, you are hooking up your hotsim module to THEIR commlink, and piping that information directly through THEIR DNI into THEIR brain. you are completely bypassing whatever method they were previously using (unless it is also hotsim) and inserting in it's place hotsim full VR. you are not adding this on to the end, you are kicking out the middle piece that they were using and replacing it with something else.

Discounting TMs, without a Sim Module, you arnt going VR. It's hardwired to be Cold Sim from the start and protects you from over stimuli of Black ICE. You have to perform a hardware test to make it Hot Sim.

Because you have to.

Because for the third or fourth time in this thread we are telling you you can't "turn on the hotsim VR for them" unless your target already has the modified equipment required to go on hotsim by himeself. You can't do that because the commlink you have just taken over most likely is physically unable to go on hot sim until it has been modified by a harware test!

If you are suggesting that you can turn on the hotsim on an unmodified sim module, you are wrong.

If you are suggesting that you can ignore the fact their sim module doesn't go hot and just connect to some other piece instead you are tripping and making up stuff as you go.

Get it out of your head that you can bypass their simmodule. You can't. If that sim module can't do hot sim (lwhich is 99% of the time at least) you are out of luck with your brain frying scheme.

This is like trying to force a 56 k/s dial up modem to accept 1 gig/s.

But my connection is really fast! So I'll just shove my data directly inside the computer! Whee!

I really don't care how good a hacker you are, you ain't feeding more than 56 K/s through that dial up modem because that's all it can take. And you can't magically turn the dial up modem into high speed connection by the force of your wishful thinking.

Jaid READ THE RULES again. It may not be a hardware test on the comlink but its still a hardware test, meaning hacking won't change wether the sim module HARDWARE accepts hot sim. Sim Sense is software.

Sim Module, Page 222
"A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim
module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack
or trode net."

The Sim Module is PART of the comlink. So you can't send the signal through the comlink into their, brain you have to use an attached sim module. Its not software either so you can't load in your own. Thats like hacking into my laptop and instailing DVD burner and a new video card. It doesn't work.

Your idea of the hacker using his own hot sim module, doesn't work because the hot sim module wouldn't be able to connect to the target correctly. The hot sim sends out its lethal biofeedback into what? the targets DNI? no wireless signal of its own. The comlink? the comlink can't handle those signals thats why you have the sim module to begain with.

How does the hacker using his own sim module work? the sim module sends its data into the brain via datajack or trodes.

i am beginning to wonder if you are intentionally ignoring what i am saying.

ok, listen again:

our protagonist, Bob Hacker, has an extra hotsim module. he hacks Joe Average's commlink. now, being an average joe, Joe probably has a sim module actually (for viewing his collection of simflicks) and may even own a hotsim module if he's addicted to BTLs, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume that Joe has unsubscribed his theoretical sim module entirely and is using only an image link, sound link, and DNI for some reason.

Bob is mad at Joe (maybe Joe complained bob wasn't a very good tech support worked and cost Bob his job or something), so Bob is going to get back at Joe by murdering him, which conveniently provides us with this example scenario. Of course, since Bob (whose last name is an excellent indicater of his skills) is not very good with a gun but is quite skilled at hacking, he decides to use black IC to kill Joe.

frustratingly, once he hacks in to Joe's commlink, he finds that Joe doesn't have any sort of simsense capabilities whatsoever. so Bob take's control of Joe's commlink, and adds his own (ie Bob's) extra hotsim module to Joe's commlink's subscription list. he then instructs Joe's commlink to stop using AR to communicate with Joe, and to use the sim module he's just subscribed instead. since Joe's commlink does not require any modifications whatsoever to run hotsim, (the commlink has nothing to do with this) all that is needed are a hotsim module (provided courtesy of Bob), and a DNI, which Joe has (unfortunately for him). now that Joe has been forced into full hotsim VR, Bob proceeds to attack him with his black hammer program. unfortunately for Joe, he's very much average... he has no cybercombat skill, 3 willpower, and is not running a biofeedback filter (after all, he wasn't expecting to be using VR at all, and even if he was he certainly wasn't expecting to face cybercombat with a black hammer armed opponent), and no edge (he's an unimportant NPC, professional rating 0 probably). Joe is pretty much horribly screwed over, and is going to die at the hands of Bob, who has a much better dice pool and much better combat programs. poor Joe.

now then, notice that this situation, which i have been describing repeatedly, does not require anything on the part of Joe average except that he have a DNI? he could have not even been using AR, and it would have still worked on him, so long as he has a DNI. the DNI might not have even been active, and it still wouldn't have protected him, although it might have added another step to the process if the DNI was not subscribed to Joe's commlink. what kind of commlink Joe has is irrelevant. what kind of sim module (hot, cold, or nonexistant) is not relevant, and neither is the method Joe is using to access the matrix or the commlink (video screen, trideo/hologram projector, AR, hotsim VR, coldsim VR, or nothing). as long as Joe has a DNI, this basic sequence results in the ability to force Joe into cybercombat in hotsim VR. even the commlink is unnecessary. Bob could use an extra commlink, his own commlink, or even just skip the commlink entirely and hack the DNI device directly instead.

do you understand now what i have been saying?

[edit]

exactly. and datajacks and trodes (and the commlink, if you want to add that into the mess, and the sim module too) are all, by default, wireless devices. every last one of them. therefore, by having a sim module anywhere with a wireless path to a given commlink, that given commlink can access simsense signals. [/edit]