 Bioware vs Cyberware?, Can you hack it? |
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 Dec 18 2006, 06:33 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 337 Joined: 1-September 06 From: LI, New York Member No.: 9,286  |
I suggest everyone back off and relax before we start pulling admin aggro.
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Dec 18 2006, 09:15 AM
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#77
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed - in the old days, you could enter the matrix 'naked'.
No, in fact he's quite right - after hacking someones commlink and trodes/datajack, you can force them into using full simsense imersion. |
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Dec 18 2006, 03:09 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
And some how turn on hot sim even thought the targets sim module is not rigged for hot VR?
And old day deckers would plug there brain diretly in. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:32 PM
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#79
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Even if they have no sim module? Even if they are not capable of VR? I agree that you can hack someone's comm and force them into VR, provided their commlink is capable of going VR. It's that last part people are arguing about. |
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Dec 18 2006, 04:48 PM
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#80
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
To go VR, there has to be a sim module connected to those trodes/datajack/DNI. It can be connected via cable or wirelessly... and after you have admin access to a commlink, you can connect any sim module you want: That includes your very own spare hot sim module.
Uh... what case are you refering to? |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:00 PM
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#81
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So basically, under that interpretation, anyone with a datajack can be hacked and killed at any time from anywhere in the world, even if they are not using it or connected to a commlink at the time, correct?
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Dec 18 2006, 05:03 PM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Yes.
No. Directly. It has to be connected directly. I'm not quoting the passage again! It's in the description of a simsense module, look it up or read the post just ten message ago. It must be connected directly. That's what the rules say. The fluff text states that most electronic device can be accessed wirelessly (though it's GMs call to which are or are not wireless capable since you can pretty much remove it if you feel like it) and somehow when they enccounter a device that specifically must be accessed directly as per the rule they can't grasp that this hard rule overrules the fluff text. And this idea that as long as the simsense module is directly connected to one brain it can then affect any other brain is pure delirium. To go into hot VR each brain needs to be directly connected to its own modified simsense module. What the heck is so hard to understand? I can't fathom it. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:08 PM
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#83
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Does "directly" mean physically, or does it just mean without any signal repeating devices in between? I could reasonably see both scenarios applying the word directly.
My computer is connected "directly" to my wireless router, because there are no other devices in between. My PDA is not connected "directly" to said wireless router, because it communicates through the computer. Seems like a reasonable use of the word. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:09 PM
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#84
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Let me say this softly: No. The rules of the sim module are not stating any requirement to the connection. In fact, trodes are wireless, too - and nanotrodes must be wireless. If you are referring to "to directly experience simsense programs" - that's a figure of speech. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:11 PM
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#85
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
The wireless are wrapped around your head. Or they don't interact with your brain and you don't go in hot sim. The can connect wirelessly to your commlink but they connect directly tor your head. Or they are useless. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:13 PM
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#86
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Even the non-wireless ones are wrapped around your head. ;) And yes, if you are wearing trodes or a datajack that are somehow open on wifi, you can be forced into VR. The rest is just hopping nodes. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:19 PM
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#87
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Datajack are just port or basically a plug. They specifically connect by fiberoptic, it's in the rules, it's their whole point. They are not a device, they are just a mean to plug something into your brain, hence the "jack" part of the word. The trodes can be hacked, it was never denied. But if they are not connected to a simsense module modified for Hot Sim you can't kill the user. And the simsense module needs to be directly connected. And in many of the cases we were arguing the potential victim didn't even have trodes. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:25 PM
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#88
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No... they allow cabel and chip access - but they are wireless-equipped, too... which can be turned off, etc. If you connect them to something that uses wifi, this just became moot. ;)
..and once you hacked them, you hook them up with your own spare hot sim module to fry the poor bastards brain. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:28 PM
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#89
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
It's been my understanding that the trodes, datajack, whatever have to be connected "directly" to a hot-sim module. By "directly", I mean in direct communication with no other nodes in between. I'd allow a wireless connection, provided it was a "direct" (by my definition) wireless connection. If the signal has to go through any device in between, the "hotness" will be lost, unless every intermediate device is also modified for hot sim. In fact, the capability for VR at all would be lost unless all intermediate devices have sim modules.
I'm not saying that I got that interpretation carved into a stone tablet by burning shrubbery, that's just sort of how I figured it worked. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:32 PM
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#90
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That would be a house-rule:
Peak-Control is only done in the sim module, nowhere else. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:50 PM
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#91
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Why the hell would you connect a datajack to a wireless device? If the device is wireless it can connect direclty to your image link or any other cyberware and you don't need the datajack in the first place. It's a plug for fiber optic cable so that you can connect in a wired fashion. You are talking about hacking a plug designed to allow the PC to, for example, conduct mental communications between two datajack linked by fiberoptic that are precisely impossible to hack (And that's one example from the book). In the equipment section they say essentially that almost every device is wireless enabled but that it's up to a GM to make the final call and they also point out that many time just RFID tag indicating location and status is enough. It's a big fat case for having no more than a tag unless manufaturer like wasting ressources.
But your sim module isn't directly connected to his brain. What you suggest defies everything about how SR has worked for 17 years. And it's not even a new possibility : Back in the days of wired matrix you could have a decker running a hot ASIST cyberdeck encounter a guy running cold with trode on a lame deck. But it was strictly impossible for the hot shot decker using a powerful Black Hammer to kill the the guy running cold even though he could take over his deck and shoot is allpowerul Hot ASIST powered Black Hammer signal into the poor guy's brain. The worst that could happen is a head ache because the guy was running cold. He couldn't force his opponent into hot ASIST. Didn't work then and the fact that instead of connecting him through wire you connect wirelessly doesn't make it more likely. I think it's high time to just write to FANPRO and settle this. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:55 PM
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#92
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Ask someone else about the 'why', I just stated a case.
Correct. The spare hot sim module isn't. In fact it can't (unless you swiftly implant it...), as it needs trodes or a datajack, which are directly connected to his brain. Again: There is no rules-requirement to the kind, distance or routing of the connection between sim module and the trodes/datajack. |
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Dec 18 2006, 05:59 PM
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#93
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Hmm, so where would you direct a rules question?
info@shadowrun.com, Rob Boyle or what? |
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Dec 18 2006, 06:02 PM
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#94
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..I'm pretty sure that question is answered on srrpg.com
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Dec 18 2006, 06:07 PM
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#95
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I'd like an official answer for this, too. I can certainly see both POVs, and while I still suspect that my interpretation is the intended one, I can't prove it. Either way this gets settled, once it does get settled, someone is going to feel really silly for being so condescending. Not picking on anyone in particular, there's been some self-righteousness on both sides of the debate.
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Dec 18 2006, 06:15 PM
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#96
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
If it were, it would have been quoted by now. Meaning, no, it's not. I've checked. |
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Dec 18 2006, 06:17 PM
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#97
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I think he meant the question of where to direct official rules inquiries, not the question of VR-blah-blah. |
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Dec 18 2006, 06:33 PM
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#98
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Close ... info@shadowrunrpg.com ;) |
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Dec 18 2006, 06:50 PM
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#99
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Done. To info-srrpg. And yeah, Moon Hawk, that made more sense... |
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Dec 19 2006, 10:29 AM
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#100
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
I was under the impression that you can run wireless DNI, I even asked about it:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=10301&hl= Not very interesting thread, though. I don't understand why people not even try to understand that it is possible to come to different interpretations of the rules, of words like "direct" etc. Its a game, so there is no "proving wrong" and it should be possible to agree to disagree. |
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