 Sacrificing and PCs in SR3, Where does it say that PCs can't learn |
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 Jan 9 2007, 02:59 AM
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#1
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
So I'm rereading the Threat section of Magic in the Shadows and I cant find a quote that explicitly forbids a PCs from learning Sacrificing via an initiatory group that knows the metamagic. The only text on the subject in the blood magic says:
Immediately previous it says:
This suggests that it is, in fact, possible for a PC to learn Sacrificing and the prohibition is only on learning Sacrificing through self-initiation, which can only be accomplished by magical threats who are an exception to the general rule. This also suggests that not all blood magicians qualify as being magical threats, which makes sense considering the use of self-sacrifice by powerful good guys. |
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Jan 9 2007, 03:13 AM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Barring further text, I would conclude that PCs can learn Sacrificing.
~J |
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Jan 9 2007, 03:32 AM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
This is just another example of how the game designers apparently don't go over their text with as fine a tooth comb as the average player does.
Since I'm incapable of wit, subtlety, or good sense, I'd probably just end up running some kind of "evil magician" campaign where all the PCs are bad guys and they're competing with each other to pull off the worst atrocities so as to end the game with the highest number of potency points. |
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Jan 9 2007, 04:27 AM
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#4
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I believe this change was made partway through the line, due to the argument that many religious and magical traditions sacrifice animals or inflict self-harm. Witness Catholic self-flagellants or vodoun rituals.
So what if it says the PCs are incapable of learning sacrificing? When was the last time you had a really good idea and you let a rule designed to keep you from exploring it stand in your way? It's your game. |
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Jan 9 2007, 03:46 PM
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#5
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
hahahaha Surely you jest. MitS, not proofread? How dare you! |
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Jan 9 2007, 04:06 PM
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#6
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Go ahead, let your PC learn it. So his team mate can turn him in for the blood mage bounty. Good money right there.
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Jan 9 2007, 08:35 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 27-October 02 From: Chicago Containment Zone Member No.: 3,504 |
And he'll go insane doing it too. Make him roleplay that.
After all, he'll lose his sanity, says right there in the book ;) |
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Jan 9 2007, 09:47 PM
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#8
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
He'll only lose his sanity if he learns the technique from a spirit or an Astral quest. That's pretty much the point of this thread. While I and many others have gone on the assumption that Sacrificing was explicitly forbidden to PCs in SR3, it is not. It was explicitly forbidden in SR2 but not in SR3, a fact that makes the self-sacrificing Shapeshifter PC a viable character. |
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Jan 10 2007, 01:46 AM
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#9
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
And a total fucking badass to boot.
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Jan 10 2007, 03:13 AM
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#10
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Knowing sacrificing is not the same thing as being a blood mage, per the bounty. Blood magicians would be magicians who know sacrificing, and have sacrificed humans, and have gained potency from it. |
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Jan 10 2007, 03:17 AM
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#11
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And even then, only those that appear on the DF's little list are eligible for the bounty.
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Jan 10 2007, 03:20 AM
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#12
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Quebec will still pay you, though.
~J |
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Jan 10 2007, 03:21 AM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, but not as much.
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Jan 10 2007, 07:43 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
So then the real question is how much is your chummer worth? Enough to turn him in? :ork |
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Jan 11 2007, 03:00 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 17-June 02 From: Concord University, Athens, WV Member No.: 2,880 |
You people are lucky. Someone has to pay your teammates to screw you over. In ours, we get teammates killed through pranks. Like that time we called the adept and told him to be on a certain train at a certain time, and for some reason he trusted us. He doesn't anymore, ever since we blew the tracks out from uncer said train with C12. We did pay for his medical treatment, though... well... We more gave him to a sociopath with a (supposedly real) medical degree, and told the guy to have fun... |
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Jan 11 2007, 03:04 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
IMO, sacrificing gets a bad rap. It's not inherently evil. The Great Ghost Dance was essentially sacrificial magic, right?
It's only when you sacrifice unwilling sentient victims that that it really crosses the line. Although, for game balance reasons, I wouldn't ever let a shapeshifter learn it :P |
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Jan 11 2007, 03:32 AM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's a weird way to make your argument. "Death camps are not inherently evil. Auschwitz was a death camp, right?" ~J |
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Jan 11 2007, 03:47 AM
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#18
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Dammit, Kage. I nearly spit up on my keyboard from laughing so hard.
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Jan 11 2007, 03:50 AM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
psh. you make it sound like the injuns got the GGD from some kind of half-Horror freak, or something. |
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Jan 11 2007, 06:53 AM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Isn't that what the Immortal Elves are? |
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Jan 11 2007, 06:59 AM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
mfb was being sarcastic. The half-horror immortal elf son of Ysrthgrathe and Aina named Thais taught the Great Ghost Dance, which is funny, since I didn't think of it as the kind of thing you could just learn, but oh well.
What if you sacrifice somebody who was going to be executed for good reasons, like a murderer, or SL James? Would that be evil? :D |
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Jan 11 2007, 07:01 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Well, I haven't read up on the Great Ghost Dance since SR1 first came out. But my understanding was that the participation was voluntary. Is my understanding incorrect? (My personal experience was that I read a lot of the stuff when SR1 first came out, then had a gap until very late in the SR3 cycle.) |
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Jan 11 2007, 07:09 AM
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#23
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Subjectively, it is if you royally fuck it up - like Darth Vader killing Obi-Wan, or the execution of Saddam Hussein. |
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Jan 11 2007, 02:24 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Your understanding is incorrect only insofar as you believe voluntary participation to be a mitigating factor. ~J |
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Jan 11 2007, 06:39 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
With respect to the sacrificing part? Why not? If the subject is a volunteer, I don't see why sacrificing them is inherently evil. People sacrifice themselves all the time -- in battle, firefighters, police men, etc -- and it's often considered heroic. Why is this particular method of sacrificing evil? |
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