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> GM/player dispute during a mission, Force 12 lightning ball vs case of 7-7
ShadowDragon
post Jan 9 2007, 06:59 PM
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On the last mission my players took, the PCs were supposed to plant a suitcase full of 7-7 gas inside a corporate building. The Johnson told them that the suitcase had incriminating evidence that Lonestar would find during an upcoming raid. What the Johnson didn't tell them was that the suitcase was full of 7-7 gas and was designed to release enough gas to kill anyone inside of the building after being triggered by a combat spell. Lonestar was never actually intended to find anything but dead employees. Anyway, the PCs got caught sneaking inside the building and were shot up pretty badly. The group mage had the brilliant idea to pull a kamikaze by throwing a force 12 ball lightning in the middle of the combat, which would catch all the security he could see, as well as the team EXCEPT for one PC. Unfortunately the suitcase was being held by one of the PCs caught in the ball lightning so it released the 7-7 gas, killing the PC outside the ball lightning.

Here's the problem - the player of the PC killed by the 7-7 thinks that ball lightning of that magnitude should have rendered the 7-7 gas inert. I said no, but agreed to post here to see everyone's opinion.
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Konsaki
post Jan 9 2007, 07:02 PM
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Methinks it's time to roll up some new characters...
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Thane36425
post Jan 9 2007, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Konsaki)
Methinks it's time to roll up some new characters...

I would agree. It would probably be best not to let that player be a mage again. The other players must have been really pleased with his solution to that problem.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 9 2007, 07:08 PM
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It is generally wise to minimise the "mysterious case's" exposure to all manner of explosions, both magical and otherwise. :-)
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Ophis
post Jan 9 2007, 07:11 PM
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The case was designed to protect the contents using some sort of triggered ward right? some anchoring varient I presume, so the gas was released after the case got hit so no lightning. Plus the case was a complete faraday cage so the lightning never affected the contents. does that sound okay?
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Serbitar
post Jan 9 2007, 07:18 PM
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I would say that fire could have done the job (though not knowing what the actual composition of seven7 is) if it was organic it would have burned.

But lightning? Not really.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 9 2007, 07:30 PM
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Look, it's easy. The lightning killed everyone except this one PC, right? So this one PC is the only one who has issue with the gas, right?
Okay, so if he permanently reduces his edge by one point (See the Escape Certain Death rules) then the lightning must've somehow nullified the seven7. Otherwise, it didn't.

Seems simple enough. :-)
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BishopMcQ
post Jan 9 2007, 07:34 PM
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It depends on what the trigger mechanism was for the device. Speaking without much practical experience, I don't think the flash of electricity would have rendered the compound inert. The military uses napalm and the like to smother and burn gas weapons, presumably because traditional explosives wouldn't effectively accomplish the same task.

One possibility is depending on how the gas was meant to be delivered, the delivery system could have been destroyed so that it wasn't released properly or at the very least without optimal spread. Though since the original post mentioned release through combat spell, I'd presume that the container wasn't primed with explosives but rather was a delicate container to be targeted with a powerbolt or wreck.

I think the runners did a good job of killing their own. Write this off as a "First Run" type experience and start with a new team. Otherwise, they can use all the same characters just back off any karma and change the names to protect the innocent.

Edit: I agree with Moon-Hawk.
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djinni
post Jan 9 2007, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Okay, so if he permanently reduces his edge by one point (See the Escape Certain Death rules) then the lightning must've somehow nullified the seven7. Otherwise, it didn't.

when the rest of the group says "Oh hey I do that too!"
tell them "okay you aren't dead but you have been captrued by the corp. runner X was concious enough to evade capture..."
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 9 2007, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 9 2007, 02:30 PM)
Okay, so if he permanently reduces his edge by one point (See the Escape Certain Death rules) then the lightning must've somehow nullified the seven7.  Otherwise, it didn't.

when the rest of the group says "Oh hey I do that too!"
tell them "okay you aren't dead but you have been captrued by the corp. runner X was concious enough to evade capture..."

Hell yes!
It's "Escape Certain Death" not "Get Out of Jail Free". Be evil!
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deek
post Jan 9 2007, 07:53 PM
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It doesn't sound like anyone but the complaining PC died. I would have allowed him to burn a point of Edge to miraculously survive, as that can always be replenished with karma.

Did you give any further clues that something in the case could be triggered? Even though the mission was a basic sneak and plant, you should always be wary that combat could ensue. And with a mage in the group, I don't see anyone would be surprised that a combat spell could be used...granted, force 12 was insane, but it sounded like the team survived the spell...

It just seems to me that giving the PCs an unknown device that could be triggered by something they may do within reason, is asking for some trouble...IMO.
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Thanee
post Jan 9 2007, 07:55 PM
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So, did the mage kill himself with the spell or with the Drain? :eek:

Bye
Thanee
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 9 2007, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (deek)
It doesn't sound like anyone but the complaining PC died.

I'm not sure, but it was my impression that everyone died, the complaining PC is just the only one complaining about it.
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Cynic project
post Jan 9 2007, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
s full of 7-7 gas and was designed to release enough gas to kill anyone inside of the building after being triggered by a combat spell. Lonestar was never actually intended to find anything but dead employees.

WTF? Really What the fuck. Let's see. Someone set up a trap that reqired that someone use magic to blow a suit case. Let's see how this makes my head hurt. So this suit case was sent to kill abunch f people.A whole lot in fact, but it would only kill them if someone threw a combat spell at it? How many times do you think people say, look it si a suit case let's throw a combat spell at it! If for whatever reason a spell would damage the case enough to make it unlikely the gas would kill anyone..It would do so if the gas was triggered that way or not.


So why would it be triggered with a combat spell?Really tell me that. If you can tell me that I will give you the time of the day.Until then you may as well be playing GM Vs players, and no one wins that.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 9 2007, 08:15 PM
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Note: I have nothing to do with this campaign, I'm just mouthy.

Why would it be triggered by a combat spell? The aggressive party here didn't have the technical ability to design a reliable triggering mechanism. But they did have magic. So they just sealed it in a bottle, and then targeted the bottle using ritual sorcery (they kept the cup from the thermos lid, for example), allowing them to release the gas from afar.
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Banaticus
post Jan 9 2007, 08:18 PM
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Were you the guy who died, Cynic project?
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Cheops
post Jan 9 2007, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus)
Were you the guy who died, Cynic project?

Sounds to me like he is.

It's actually a pretty good trigger if you ask me.
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Bashfull
post Jan 9 2007, 09:09 PM
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Point of clarification:

Was the player who complained the same person as was running the spell-happy mage? In which case, if anyone deserved a demise, it was him/her. I reckon the Edge point solution is the right one. You could say the fireball burnt it (arf, arf).
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 9 2007, 09:14 PM
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It was a Lightning Ball.

And no, it couldn't have oxidized the 7-Seven, as that was released after the spell hit it's container... undless the spell was sustained at least one round.
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yoippari
post Jan 9 2007, 09:16 PM
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I sort of have to ask, if you didn't intend on killing the PCs, what is the point of a combat spell triggered chemical weapon? Who would set it off if not the PCs?
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BishopMcQ
post Jan 9 2007, 09:18 PM
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The scenario Moon-Hawk laid out is pretty much what I was seeing as happening. Though even if the individual had the technical ability, he may not have had the physical ability to place the device without a trace, hence the use of deniable assets. Afterall, even in the case of the runners failing, the johnson gets what he wanted--a lot of dead Star.
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Zen Shooter01
post Jan 9 2007, 10:03 PM
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Lightning Ball is instant duration, right?

So the container is broken open. An instant later, the gas comes out. But by then the spell is over.

But, better solution: tell the PC that you're the gamemaster, and he isn't.
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Butterblume
post Jan 9 2007, 10:13 PM
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On a side note, as player I get pretty suspicious when my char is ordered to deposit a container with unknown contents somewhere. especially inside a populated building. My very first run a dozen years back used that (then not so old) ploy, and since then it's been repeated several times.

Depending on mood, sometimes I play along, other times I just want to find out what's in the container first :cyber:.
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ShadowDragon
post Jan 9 2007, 10:52 PM
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For the curious, the case was to be detonated by ritual sorcery and was covered by a custom ward. I didn't give any clues as to the contents of the case, but I was prepared to if the PCs took any action to make this discovery. They didn't - they surprisingly did very little legwork for this mission. I don't want to say anything more because I plan on reusing the plot and I know that at least one of my players reads this forum.

To clarify, the entire group died. The entire group was very unlucky with perception so they got ambushed after they decided to wait until they heard a guard approaching (yeah it confused me too, but I asked them if they were sure twice...). It also didn't help that the group hacker alerted the security hacker to their presence before waiting in the hall for the guard. The face and the sammy were unconscious from a drone that made some lucky rolls with full auto (other than it glitching on initiative and missing an IP). A few flash-bangs sealed the deal for the mage, who rolled his con to appear unconscious right before he nuked himself, his team, and the case. I don't know if the drain or the lightning killed him - I guess it would depend on which he feels first? The player complaining had the hacker, who was just outside of the mage's ball lightning. Said hacker also only had 1 total edge, so I don't think burning it is an option.
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ShadowDragon
post Jan 9 2007, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Lightning Ball is instant duration, right?

So the container is broken open. An instant later, the gas comes out. But by then the spell is over.

But, better solution: tell the PC that you're the gamemaster, and he isn't.

He's not whining about it. We're both adults. He just wanted me to consider the possibility.
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