GM/player dispute during a mission, Force 12 lightning ball vs case of 7-7 Options

[Demerzel]

If it was a simple matter of consider it I'd say you did, and you're done, he's dead.

[ShadowDragon]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[hyzmarca]

Okay, so if he permanently reduces his edge by one point (See the Escape Certain Death rules) then the lightning must've somehow nullified the seven7. Otherwise, it didn't.

when the rest of the group says "Oh hey I do that too!"
tell them "okay you aren't dead but you have been captrued by the corp. runner X was concious enough to evade capture..."

No, what you do is have them wake up in a dark hot cave that smells of sulfur and is dimly lit by a bunch of glowing white-hot rocks in a corner. The only furniture is a table and chair. In the chair sits a figure in a black hooded robe holding a large gleaming scythe. It turns toward the runners and reveals a skeletal face.

"I know what you're going to say. 'Its not my time; I have so much left to do;please let me go back; You have to play a game of chess with us it is the rule. ' It is your time; I don't care; no; and that was a movie, dumbasses".

"But, even I need deniable assets every once in a while. Normally, I am a patient woman; everyone comes to me, eventually. But, those who are immune to the ravages of time may escape me until time itself accepts my touch. One such being, I cannot wait patiently for. If you slay this immortal for me I shall let you continue to live. If you cannot, you won't be any deader for the effort."

[Banaticus]

Ooh, nice segue.

Even if he only had one point of Edge, he can still permanently burn it to stay alive -- he'll just have no Edge at all unless he can stay alive long enough to buy the attribute up to 1. I believe Edge is like Magic -- you can have a Zero attribute.

[Kyoto Kid]

...had a similar situation with a "plant the briefcase" mission. This one just being packed with a lot of Plastic Explosive. It is just before the Metroplex Election. Same MO from the Johnson, incriminating evidence against a candidate to be planted in a car on a ferry. Simple mission everyone is told.

Desired end result to be the same, lot of people die when the ferry goes boom in mid Puget Sound. Team is to find their own way off the ferry after planting the case.

....here's where everything goes wrong

Team makes same mistake: not thorough enough on the legwork

Case is actually supposed to be planted by one of the Metas on the team, but task falls to KK4.3 (human) because she is the stealthiest

Secret minicam is planted in car where suitcase is to be placed. KK4.3 recorded sliding briefcase under seat of car. Parked car behind is a tanker truck full of high octane gasoline.

KK4.3 - Logic of 1, does not draw connection seeing the tanker truck, doesn't notice remote minicam recording her.

Team gets off ferry

Ferry goes boom

Later KK4.3 is seen all over the news nets as the one who planted the bomb & goes into hiding.

Rest of team goes after Johnson, who turns out to be affiliated with Brackhaven

Brackhaven loses election.

KK4.3 declared dead in explosion. Time for a total makeover, new SINs etc. Not an actual PC death mind you, but in a way it is the end of KK4.3s "Bushido Cowgirl" concept. KK4.3 works with Violet to raise Logic attribute during downtime & begins looking for a new MO.

Enter...Death Blossom.

[Demerzel]

I'd say dropping to 0 edge would definatly come with the Bad Luck Quality, oh and NEVER get cought in suppressive fire.

I'm not really the nicest of GMs though, I put my players through this for making a few mistakes on a run... I did however let them live.

[Cynic project]

[Cynic project]

[hyzmarca]

[BishopMcQ]

Pulling out the 80s movie trivia...I generally get blank looks when i say that "I'll have it all figured out by the time we reach the frontier."

Go you for making the plausible connection.

[ShadowDragon]

[SinN]

[SinN]

[Kesslan]

[ornot]

When I first read about this spell triggered bomb I have to admit to going "huh? How is the Johnson or whoever they're working with going to cast a spell at it?" But the point about ritual sorcery is a good one, and it's certainly a viable trigger, especially as telling the runners "make sure you plant it by X-o-clock" or "when you've planted it remember to press this little button" might lead them to twig that it was a bomb. As has been suggested a wireless signal might be blocked, interfered with or inadvertantly duplicated.

The principle disadvantage of the magical approach is traceability by magical forensics, but I guess that's no more a problem than forensics reconstructing the detonator.

As for the lightening neutralising the gas... I would accept that it could, but in order to gas a whole building you'd need a lot of gas, and it's unlikely that all of it would be neutralised. A grenade's worth, perhaps, but not enough to fill a building.

It rather reminds me of my group's Slainey MacRoth incident, in which the titular mage fireballed the boat the rest of the team were on to take out the corp guards that had captured them. Everyone died, including MacRoth who passed out face down because of the drain, and drowned.

[ElFenrir]

A Force 12 ball lightning is a doozy.

Well, like the other folks said, Edge survivability. You can buy it to 0. Did EVERYONE have 0 edge, or just not want to use it?

And we ALL make mistakes at times, and pick the bad decision. The big of my sig about the Magnetic Hands was a spectacular chain of death decisions a good friend of ours made. The guy is actually a great roleplayer and smart about it. We still laugh at him for this lack of judgement several times in a row, however. (This was SR2 days before edge burning and for some reason, i dont think the hand of god was used here. i think the karma he had was used up already? Perhaps from buying successes for this act.) It started with one bad decision, and several bad decisions later, ended up with him falling a few kilometers to his death.

However, weve roleplayed plenty of times where the guy is great, too. Case is, we all make dumb decisions at times in games, i know i have. I know plenty of mages that have done the 'big kaboom overcast' at the end of it all, and not knowing it was a magical trigger, well, mistakes. The biggest one was probably lack of legwork. (Again, i think alot of players have done that before, i know we did at some points.)

One question, thru legwork, was there ANY way they could have known about the trigger? By the sound of it that was a VERY well guarded secret. Legwork can go so far, but if there is something thats known by say, one group of ritual magicians and the head honcho, the chances are amazingly slim of known this.

As for the gas, im not sure about if it would be burned away or not. A force 12 ball lightning is going to be VERY hot, so maybe.

Legwork is a touchy thing, though. You can never have too little of it...but someitmes its hard to figure out...when have you done enough of it? There can be things hidden that are near impossible to find. And when you are in-game, it is, IMO, sometimes hard to tell if youve dug deep enough(and sometimes when you think you have, and then decide to go deeper, and get screwed ANYWAY, well, it can happen.)

[Moon-Hawk]

[ornot]

As far as legwork goes, in this situation it would be as simple as examining the suitcase. It's always worth trying to find out who the Johnson is working for too, and who is he is trying to stitch up.

[Cheops]

Apart from my opinions on how the team screwed up here's why I think the bomb was a good idea:

1. Some corps are more comfortable with magic than tech. Dido for some of the other players in the shadows.

2. Signal scanners, MAD scanners, chemical scanners, and other cheap sensors can detect a technological trigger. Any of them can do a good job for around 1000 nuyen. The case would have to be smuggled past at least 2 of these if the target has low to moderate security.

3. Magical trigger only has to get past 1 level of security. The astral mage. No worries about wards or anything like that...although it sounds like the case was warded in which case it goes back up to 2 levels.

4. The bomb was gas not explosives. That means all the forensic evidence is still intact. Fingerprints on the case, possible trigger mechanisms, trace chemicals, etc. Ritual spell only leaves signature which can be erased by an astral spotter with cleanse or that fades. Presumeably you use a really low force spell. So 1 maybe 2 hours for the CSI team to realize it was a magical trigger.

5. First response will focus on damage control and EMT. CSI teams usually don't start their work until the area is made relatively safe for them and the critical patients are removed from the scene.

These are only the first few I can think of. I can probably come up with more. On the other hand I can only think of 2 reasons it wouldn't:

1. Ritual team isn't good enough to get over the dice pool penalty due to warding on the target. Can be counteracted by the use of spirits and foci.

2. Either the team or the opposition accidentally hits the case. Results in a less than optimal trigger (such as the 93 WTC bombing) but still releases the gas inside the target doing some damage. Only really a disadvantage to the team and the body count.

[Demerzel]

Hummn. If the case was warded, and wards cannot nest, then what happens when you take it into a warded room?

One of the wards has to fail. How does that work? Is it a simple opposed test between the force of the two wards (Or possibly Force * 2, seems to be a mechanic used). If you are alerted to someone attempting to pass through your ward even if they fail, then are you alerted when another ward attempts to impinge on your ward?

Can I ward hollow point bullets and turn them into shattershield rounds? Hummn, I wish I had some rulebooks with me...

[Kyoto Kid]

[BishopMcQ]

Demerzel--Do you remember where the rules mentioned no nesting? I'm referencing now to see if I can find it...

[RunnerPaul]

[BishopMcQ]

Got it. I was referencing SR4 and couldn't find anything about it.