 SR3 or SR4 which one has more |
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 Jan 17 2007, 08:43 PM
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#101
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
My sentiments exactly when I hit Back instead of Post. :) |
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Jan 18 2007, 12:30 AM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
If SR4 is doing so well, then why the lack of material? Must not be money.... Time? Material?
Adam or Synner mentioned last year something about a Almanac/History type book - all flavor text complied form the history of SR complied into one book - no gaming material, just back ground - is that still in the works? |
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Jan 18 2007, 12:38 AM
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#103
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
They're working on the core sourcebooks, but most work is done by freelancers, so it needs time. And back in the glorious days of SR3 the core sourcebooks weren't released alltogether with the BBB.
It's a german book iirc. |
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Jan 18 2007, 01:03 AM
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#104
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Actually it's a mix of all the above, the fact that the line developer had all the work of general manager, sales manager, accountant, new business manager, chief editor and art director on his desk. Reorganizing workflow and bringing development up to speed when both assistant developers are part time help is not the easiest of processes either. Not that FanPro's standing still, as Battletech Classic fans know and that side of the business too has an impact on the production schedule. Then there's also the fact that we're producing core books, all of which require much more ironing out, cross-referencing and playtesting than normal. That being said personal circumstances have conspired to delay at least one scheduled fluff book (my bad there) but we're doing our best to catch up. Emergence and Arsenal are on the tail end of development, I have a bunch of Augmentation drafts in editing on my HD and Corp Enclaves is also coming along nicely. I'm confident once we hit our stride the process will also flow better.
As Grinder pointed out the Almanac was indeed a German release to wrap up SR3. What was said was that while there's no plans for translating the German book, doing something of the kind in the future hasn't been ruled out. |
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Jan 18 2007, 02:05 AM
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#105
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I hear this. In my RL occupation I often have to juggle many different tasks and clients at the same time. The tough thing for me is, by the nature of the business I am in, everything needs to be completed on a very tight deadline. If something slides, we need to have a very good reason why it happened.
I deal with digital print workflow, proofing, and billing for a medium size company. Pretty straightforward stuff compared to developing, producing, and marketing a product which requires a more creative angle such as a game system. I do not envy the people at FanPro for one moment. |
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Jan 18 2007, 04:22 AM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Thats too bad, I'd think this would be an easy project; all the material is there, and it'd be a hot seller - you'd get all the old SR3 and new SR4 Players buying it. And While I'm not buying SR4, I'd buy the History/Almanac book in a heart beat. |
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Jan 18 2007, 05:34 AM
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#107
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I have been working in the game industry long enough to have learned -- among other things, many of which require handing me a red bull and vodka to hear -- that no matter what, no matter who suggests it, no matter how easy it may look and sound, there is no such thing as an "easy" project, and a really rocking Shadowrun almanac sounds far from easy.
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Jan 18 2007, 12:09 PM
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#108
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
No, you got the point. SR3 does not scale, because the dice stay the same. But that does not change the fact that it does not scale. |
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Jan 18 2007, 05:48 PM
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#109
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
So either invest in D30s or stop trying to scale half of it. |
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Jan 18 2007, 06:06 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Or play SR4.
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Jan 18 2007, 06:46 PM
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#111
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
rrrgh. i really don't want to get into this.
scaling is not always a good thing. two experienced boxers can go for a long, long time against each other, while two inexperienced boxers will only go for a few rounds before one of them gets a lucky shot or gets too tired to hold up their defense. chess games between amateurs tend to be over quickly; between masters, they can take much longer. scaling everything such that contests between newbies and contests between veterans always take the same amount of time would be silly. fights between dragons should be an all-day, epic event. at the same time, there are some cases where contests between high-end equals will be over very quickly, such as a pistol duel; amateurs might take a little longer simply because both of them miss several times, but it's still going to be over fairly quickly. so some things should scale. oh noes! some things scale and some things don't. what to do? how about using a dice mechanic that scales okay for things that should scale (say, roll skill vs TN 4+mods) and a mechanic that doesn't scale for things that don't (say, skill/attribute vs skill/attribute)? |
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Jan 18 2007, 07:08 PM
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#112
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The default first oder thing is to make a ruleset that scales. If one wants the complexity one can add non scaling mechanics (in both directions), as they occur in real life, as you said. But this is second order. (For example a ruleset that uses D10, and is a mix of SR3 TN modifiers and SR4 dice pool modifiers. I developed something like this as a mathematical test once, works quite well)
And in SR3 it definitely was not intended and is thus a design flaw. |
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Jan 18 2007, 07:24 PM
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#113
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
What advantage does it give?
~J |
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Jan 18 2007, 07:45 PM
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#114
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
scaling is not inherently necessary, because--as i've just shown with examples--scaling is not always desired. the biggest problem i have with SR4 is that the modifiers scale in such a way that very difficult tasks are very easy to accomplish. personally, i believe triangular scaling presents a more realistic basis, because to me, modifiers should synergize to make things even more difficult than the sum of their base difficulties.
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Jan 18 2007, 07:56 PM
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#115
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What exactly? @mfb: In most cases, scaling is desired. In few cases, it is not. Most cases define the baseline. BTW: The Boxer example concerning strength should go quite contrary. Heavy weight boxers tend to nock out each other far more often and much faster than light weight do. (Thats because strength goes up faster with weight than the toughness to take the blows) |
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Jan 18 2007, 07:57 PM
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#116
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Things scaling the way you're talking about. What benefit does it offer?
~J |
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Jan 18 2007, 08:03 PM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The benefit that an opposed test is guaranteed to yield a useful (other word for independent the rating) result no matter what the rating.
In SR3 this is not the case for high ratings (neither of the opponents achieving a hit for a number of tests is not useful, also that the number of hits is not going up with the rating). SR3 mechanis are not robust for higher ratings. SR4 mechanics are robust for any ratings. (This is not neccessarily true for modifiers, only for the mechanic itself) |
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Jan 18 2007, 08:18 PM
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#118
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
SR4 doesn't allow higher ratings. It has caps on everything. That sounds fairly much like an impediment to scaling.
Allow me to repeat your flawed analysis of SR3 scaling so you may actually understand. SR3 success is based on X (number of dice), Y (TN on a die), and Z (size of a die). Opposed tests yield useful results, but can only reliably result in some degree of success when Y is not much more than Z. You are willing to scale X and Y and insist that Z is a flaw, with no clear reason other than a very complex way of saying "Serbitar likes it this way." I have no issue with your preference for a system that scales arbitrarily when you dump out certain parts of the rules, but you claim that it is somehow inherently superior to one that results in meaningful outcomes for every test that involves PCs who are not some sort of house-ruled vampiric dragons with A++ in attributes and skills and resources. |
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Jan 18 2007, 08:22 PM
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#119
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Ahh, please tell me where exactly is the part in SR3 that changes D6 to another size (z) depending on the target number (Y), which I am dumping? I can not find this in my SR3 rulebook.
And I say again, the scaling in SR3 is already wrong by 400% comparing the ratings 3 and 6. Read my posts above for the calculation. |
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Jan 18 2007, 08:24 PM
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#120
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
There isn't. You have been talking about arbitrarily adjusting the baseline. The baseline is dependant on standard attributes, standard TNs and a standard die. You have been willing to arbitrarily change two of them, but declare that the third not being changed is a flaw.
As for 3 vs. 6: So, the second lowest possible real TN is much easier than getting the 1die/2dice cutoff. What a shock. |
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Jan 18 2007, 08:26 PM
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#121
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Yes, exactly, thats true. Because its not scaling. Mathematical fact. Very objective.
A system with varyable X, Y AND Z would be scaling (if the numbers were chosen correctly). |
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Jan 18 2007, 08:26 PM
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#122
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Whether mfb's or Serbitar's version of scaling is more desired is rather hard to say, I'd guess. We're looking at, across all actions (or at least all actions relevant to shadowrunners) in real life, how many "scale" such that two difficulties simply 'add' and how many scale such that the two are closer to multiplying. That said, in a boxing match, the TN is a base of 4, regardless of skill on either side. It scales quite nicely, since both sides get more successes based off their skill. That's different from the tug-of-war example, where (in my experience), higher strength on both sides results in a much longer game. Because SR3 uses basically four or five "mechanics" (varying TNs and number of dice), it has the option of scaling in any number of ways, including how SR4 scales (since, for example, melee combat, is skill vs. a fairly static TN). The cost is greatly increased complexity (which you've indicated is a problem, and I would agree). |
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Jan 18 2007, 09:20 PM
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#123
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Regardless of whether an Almanac would be an easy project of not, you (FanPro) are already supposedly creating one (hopefully it'd be 'rocking'). The amount of work to translate it from the German would seem to me to be trivial compared to the sales that such an Almanac would generate. Why is there such opposition to the release of an English language version of this book (or a few of the others from FanPro that are in German)? |
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Jan 18 2007, 09:48 PM
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#124
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The book is done. It has been out in stores for some month I think.
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Jan 18 2007, 09:53 PM
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#125
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I don't really see "we're not planning on doing it right now" as "much opposition".
Translation is a tough business that's extremely hours-intensive. Unless you want it to suck, anyway. And a large project like a SR Almanac would mean having to have multiple translators working on it, which means needing a project lead that's also able to translate so that there's a consistent feel and the translations are consistent. It's certainly not as easy as "just translate it". Not trying to argue or anything, because I'd love to see it too. Just putting it out there. |
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