Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do. Options

[Serbitar]

[Kyrn]

Dude, my mage can do better than that. With his gun.
Cyber forearm w/cyberarm gyromount
Smartlink
Agility 4
Automatics 4
Alpha w/gas vent III and Ex bullets or SMG w/same
10 dice to attack, base 7P -2AP, slightly worse than your knives
-(shit, I forgot the exact number, AFMB, but a wide burst...)
Anyway, this isn't as authoritatively embarrassing as originally planned due to my memory failure, but that's ten dice to hit with an automatic weapon, lots of damage, and a huge penalty to dodge the very first shot. And all this with minimal investment in what is nothing more than a supplementary ability for the character.

Your knives = weak.


Kinesics almost have to be errattaed at some point though. They are more powerful than similar powers for other abilities.

<edit> Serbitar...why must thou post so quickly?

[Xenith]

Soo... just make a few powers cheaper. I agree that some abilities are overpriced, like wall running. Its not a big deal, for Christ's sake. Hell, I even allowed a unique version of elemental strike for melee weapons. Doesn't require a bloody overhaul of adepts.

[Serbitar]

[Xenith]

My knives = portable, vastly concealable, and silent.

I laugh at your loud automatic weapon.

Its Shadowrun, not fucking Euro Wars.

[Serbitar]

Any magician laughs about your knives. And he spends 5 Karma for the substitute.

And I would say that a holdout with StickNshock is as concealable as a knife and almost as powerful as your adept with knives.

[Kyrn]

Uh, how is adjusting the price of adept powers not an overhaul?
And I don't actually have a problem with Wall Running. I don't want Shadowrun to become too wuxia or anime. 4 meters is plenty long enough for most purposes during a run. At least that I can imagine. Though it is admittedly one of the most useless adept powers. I find it amusing that the old standby, Traceless Walk, one of the most useful adept powers in SR2-3, that cost .25, now costs a full point.

Edit for Xenith: And how about a suppressed TMP for silent(ish), concealable, and portable? Or fuck, how about a manabolt with 14 dice?

[Xenith]

[Kyrn]

Or is overcast at force 10 for a base of 10. But 7 is more likely.

On a sidenote, is there any canon on really dense plastic knives that wouldn't set off weapons scanners? That could be kind of cool.

[Xenith]

Don't see why not, though the issue hasn't come up yet in my campaign.

Often, most of the mages I've played and seen played, save overcasting as a serious last resort... because thats what its suposed to be. Gotta think about the implications before you start saying that. Also, knives... don't... cause... drain. A spell at that force is likely going to sting unless you've cracked out your drain resistance. And if you say Elf shaman, I'll fucking stab you. :P

[Ophis]

Traceless walk used to be .5 and does to my mind deserve the increase, it makes you immune to ground based motion detectors.

Wall running is a little over priced but to my mind on of the best abilities going for adepts, it looks damn cool and allows several very neat tricks like getting up wall quickly and avoidance of hazards (see prince of persia).

I think as well as cost coming down a couple of powers need a cap, Kinesics, Cool resolve, Power Throw and Critical Strike.

[Kyrn]

Okay, I move Xenith, Serbitar and myself get faster connections for this conversation.

However, knives are resisted by full impact armor and a hold out can be silenced.


I can see that you're attached to these knives. They are quiet, I'll give you that. But they aren't the only quiet weapons in the game. Knives are also good methods of getting toxins into a target's bloodstream. So are arrows, chemical grenades, and the SuperSquirt. Concealability is a concern, and here you're doing fairly well. Until the endurance question comes up. A pistol (say a Predator) is fairly easily concealed. It contains fifteen bullets. How many knives do you carry?

[Kyrn]

Elf shaman. :) Go for it.

But no, he's a human mage with some ware. And a force 7 manabolt's drain is fairly easy to resist. Of course that's why he also carries automatic weapons. Some big and loud, some small, concealable, and quiet. Oh, and a cyberspur, but he's really not very good with that...

[Xenith]

Roni carries about 40. A little much, but no big deal for a huge fucking ork.

An Ares Predator is NOT very fucking concealable. Btw, Holdouts are single shot and low ammo as well. Not impressive. However, it is easier to have a powerful gun than a powerful knife. Any of the guns you just listed could be used by..... A gun-fu adept, who has access to every gadget that a Sami does (minus the gyro-wrist) plus can take improved ability for a +3 bonus to the dice pool. And attribute boost for his agility... or just improved attribute.

[Kyrn]

Out of curiosity, how? Where does he put them all? That's like very pointy scale armor! I suppose with a very flattened, throwing dart like knife you could stack a few of them, but then that vaunted concealability goes down a little bit as you increase the profile dramatically.

[Xenith]

Roni is not very subtle. I would go for about a dozen, hidden in various areas, but thats just me. Plus ever seen the sheathes for throwing knives? It'd take quite a few before you start hitting limitations.

Oh... and unlike bullets you can get the knives back.

[Kyrn]

Oh, and Xenith...that whole "anyone can make a gun strong" argument is kind of my entire point. I think making a throwing knife "nightmare" for the low, low cost of only 4 magic points is rather counterproductive. If it was a giant troll with a strength of 11, power throw 5, imp ability throwing 3 and doing 12P base damage I may have been impressed. But having a character whose focus is doing the same damage as a pistol, only with knives, is a little interesting, perhaps at times useful, but in no way would I want him as part of my team. I'd much rather hire the adept who can blow away three guards with a suppressed SMG, hack the security on the blast door, sneak past the sleeping barghest and smooth talk the receptionist into handing him the data before backflipping out the window and into the waiting helicopter. All with comparable or higher dicepools than knife dude.

It's admittedly a matter of taste.


(eidt: Neither my character nor myself frequently desire the return of expended bullets. It's just not a high enough economic priority.)

[Xenith]

I'm curious, how is 9P before successes with no dice pool penalty, the same as a pistol?

[JonathanC]

Kinda the whole point of Adepts, originally, was that they could do as much damage as a gun, WITHOUT A GUN. Thus, y'know, being able to enter a secured area unarmed and still get things done.

[Xenith]

Paper clips and bouncy balls don't do as much damage as the knives, but perhaps they fit what your are trying to get at? XD

[Kyrn]

A Cherry Blossom Firestorm (I really like the translated name) burst firing with fancy ammo, either ExEx or APDS, will be roughly equivalent to a 9P -1AP throwing knife. A smartlink (not currently an available accessory on throwing knives, though wait until Arsenal comes out) will add to the user's dice pool. Does this set up cost more money than a throwing knife? Undoubtably. But money isn't the core issue here. Agility 4, Pistols 3, (spec in YSF), and a smartlink yield 11 dice to roll. This is an example using a character who was built with combat as an afterthought. A typical sam will be tossing (Agility 7, Pistols 4(spec+2), Reflex Recorder +1 [arguably], smartlink +2) 15 dice. And even this example is a character who doesn't focus on the use of the example pistol. For the build points, a throwing knife build is very inefficient.

FYI, I have seen sheathes for throwing knives, and I fail to comprehend how someone could lug around 40 of the fucking beasties unless your vision of a throwing knife is the little cross shaped toy from Desperado.

And for a comparison of a weapon that is conceable, portable (though I would lump that into concealable), stealth friendly, and highly damaging, I will provide the following. A collapsible hand crossbow. 3P base damage. Loaded with (that knockout drug...what's the neurotoxin? I forgot again, but it's 10S.) So that's 10S damage.
If you prefer something even more concealable and silent, though of shorter range, how about an unarmed strike? Troll, bone density 4, critical strike 5, killing hands. Assuming strength of 9 that's a base damage of 13P, and it's far more effective against spirits. For a more intrusion friendly approach and elf with a strength of 3 can pick up muscle aug/replacement 2, bone density 3 and critical strike 4 (a substantial though not overwhelming application of BPs) to net a base damage of 9P. For far fewer BPs he can pick up a monowhip and do 8P -4AP.

[Kyrn]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Xenith]

Throwing knives aren't very big. Simple as that. Own some. I have a 3 knife sheath, I could carry around ten of them without it slowing me down. I'm not particularly large, at 6', 150 lbs. A 7 Strength, 6'8" ork would have no problem carrying around about 4 more. He shouldn't be having so many, as that defeats the point of their being concealable, but oh well.

Btw, hard to make that Cherry Blossom Storm silent.

And of course there are other ways to get to the same damage potential, This isn't suposed to be an "OMG its so fucking powerful!!!!WTF!!!". You also need to look at the other benefits of having the weapons and the ability to use them. He can walk into a place unarmed and have all the weapons he needs from the surroundings. Thats what made this adept so awesome. Not just his ability with throwing knives that you scoff at.

As for the unarmed attack, yeah, it'll be powerful, because Trolls are BUILT for melee, and adepts EXCELL at melee with the correct (cheap) powers. Combine the two and you have... something thats been done a thousand times before.

Also, I thought that this was a discussion about how much adepts sucked? I see no suckage in that last post.

I'll say this again; ADEPTS ARE FUCKING AWESOME! You complain because its take so many points to get the same damage potential as something else? So the fuck what? That something else is more obvious and is something people look for. Its a different angle at play.

In fact, I'll substitute my throwing knives for something else; a grenade... in fact two or maybe even four of them. BOOM. I fucking win.

[Crusher Bob]

How's this for the 333 karma, 1M Y challenge:

Karma Spending Assumptions:
Cost of attributes is based on non-racially modified stat (costs less)
Cost of raising magic is based on magic stat before essence loss (costs more)

Starting; tried to make a playable character here. Only real weakness is lack of edge.

[ Spoiler ]

Ork
Adept

B 4
A 5
R 3 (5)
S 3

C 2
I 5
L 3
W 3

M 5
E 1

Athletics group 4
Pistols 6
Perception 4
Heavy weapons 4
Etiquette 4
Intimidation 4
Infiltration 4
Shadowing 4
Unarmed Combat 4
Pilot Ground Craft 1

Ambidexterity 5 pts
Flaws 25 pts
Contacts 15 pts
Resources 10 pts

Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes-2
Combat Sense -4

Ending.
Can do well in hand to hand, with 2 warhawks, or with assualt cannon (if you are going to pack overt weapon, might as well carry something huge). Has skillwires 3 to make up for any missing skills. 15 Dice of passive defense! Some more monkeying around would produce a more optimal ware package. Edge 6 would be nice, more tinkering with karma costs might get you there.

[ Spoiler ]

Ork
Adept

B 7 (8) (27 karma)
A 5 (9)
R 3 (9)
S 6 (7) (27 karma)

C 2
I 5
L 3
W 5 (27 karma)

M 9 (6) (138 karma, includes 3 grades of initiation)
E 5 (42 karma)

Athletics group 4
Pistols 6 (revolvers) (2 karma)
Perception 6 (visual) (24 karma)
Heavy weapons 6 (Assault Cannon) (24 karma)
Etiquette 4
Intimidation 4
Infiltration 4
Shadowing 4
Unarmed Combat 6 (22 karma)
Pilot Ground Craft 1


Adept Powers (magic 6)
Combat Sense – 6
Killing Hands
Critical strike – 4
1.5 PP left for wonky adept powers, improved combat skill, or social abilities

Ware (2.99 essence worth)

[ Spoiler ]

Total Costs: 872,200

olfactory booster 5 alpha
rating 2 eyes alpha
flare comp alpha
low light alpha
thermo alpha
vision enhancement 3 alpha
image link alpha
prot covers alpha
rating 4 ears alpha
audio enhancement 3 alpha
balance augmentor alpha
select sound filter 6 alpha
damper alpha
spatial recognizer alpha
reaction enhancement 2 alpha
skillwires 3 alpha
muscle toner 3 beta
synptic -3 alpha
super thyroid beta