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emo samurai
For example, their Improved Skill power. For .5 power points, they can get +1 to a combat skill of their choice. For .2 (thanks for the correction, yoippari) essence, a samurai can get muscle toner to boost their Agility, making all their combat skills more effective. They both have hard caps no matter what they do, +3 bonus if skills and attributes are maxed. That is not fraggin fair at all.

In my game, the Improved Skill power will give you an auto-hit. One dice out of every roll using that skill will be a success. The power will be limited to skill level. I believe this to be fair.

As for Improved Attribute, it will cost .5 PP no matter what. This is stolen from Serbitar.

Increased Reflexes will cost 1 PP per level.

As for all the gimmick powers from Street Magic, I am making them cost half what they do. 1 PP for living focus? WTF?

How do I balance this out? I halve all essence costs. All of them.
yoippari
The extra .3pp (muscle toner is .2) from improve skill is free from nuyen and magical healing though. A adept can get muscle toner too and with toner 3 only cost .6 essence which allows them some more ware before they hit the 1 essence mark. Later they can initiate/buy magic like normal.
emo samurai
But that doesn't change the fact that a pure adept is not the least bit viable compared to a street sam. Even in the long term, a street sam can upgrade all his cyber and put in all the shit he wants. And it doesn't change the fact that the muscle toner does a LOT more than improved ability for less than half the magic point cost. And that -1 dice for healing matters jack shit.

Plus, the way I play it, nuyen's easier to come by than karma. Even in a normal, non stupidly-powerful game, you'll get maybe 2500 nuyen to one karma, and that 2500 nuyen is going to buy a LOT more than that one karma.
Grinder
An adept has nearly unlimited possibilites, as there is no "maximum magic rating", while a sammie can only use his 6 points of essence. And as soon as he gets into beta- or even deltaware he needs a lot of money.

That said, I don't like your idea of auto-hits.
Serbitar
I think the auto hit idea is very interesting, when implemented well. Will think about it.
Thanee
Well, Adepts get one thing that Street Sams do not... they are less obvious (cyberware scanners and all that).

Also, of course, they can raise their Agility and get the extra dice on top. It's just somewhat expensive to get there for them.

That said, I agree, that Adepts are not really that great... I always wondered why people thought they were overpowered.

I think your changes are over the top, though, but I guess that works for you. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Crusher Bob
Currently the hacker adept and the social adept are pretty much unbeatable.

The combat adepts main power advantage seems to be combat sense; they can drive thier passive defenses up a bit easier. A sam maxes out at reaction 9. A sample adept with magic 5 could get the wired 2 adept power, 4 points of combat sense, and start with 11 dice of passive defense. An adept maxed for passive defense would have 15+ dice (combat sense 6, reaction 9) which is probably doable with 100 karma.

The combat adepts lose out on agility boosts. (combat sense is about the ssame as a reaction increase) and the adept IP increases are sorta suck, but not terribly bad.

Hmm, can you squeeze in synaptic 3, with at least magic 1 left over without gimping a starting adept?
ShadowDragon
With those changes, why would I play a street sam? Especially the autohits - that is beyond broken.
Ophis
*does the happy dance of not being alone*

Glad to see I'm not the only one.

The alterations I use.

Improved attribute is 0.5 per level as per Emo and Serbiter
Increased Reflexes is 1.5 per level (equals how I run wireds).
Astral sight costs 0.5 for Mystic adepts
I would probably drop Living Focus down to 0.5
I allow Armour piercing to work on any melee attack for the adept (as unarmed is not the only fruit).

*checks list(twice)* Yep thats the lot. Most adepts get a point of cyber BIO anyhue.
Thanee
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jan 22 2007, 10:33 AM)
Hmm, can you squeeze in synaptic 3, with at least magic 1 left over without gimping a starting adept?

Everything, that is available as both adept power and cyber-/bioware, which costs significantly less Essence as compared to the PP cost (esp. Muscle Toner, Synaptic Accelerator) is an improvement for the Adept, when it is used instead of the appropriate Power.

Synaptic 2 and another point of Essence worth of Muscle Toner, etc costs the Adept 2 Magic and grants abilities in the realms of 5-6 PP total. It does cost a lot of though. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Xenith
Sorry, but from what I've seen as GM, adepts rock straight out of the box when done correctly. At first adepts specialize. A throw adept = awesome (tossing about 6 - 9p projectiles TWICE in a round tends to do that). A sword adept = awesome (strength boost with improved ability and counterstrike... brings tears to my eyes).

Mystic adepts tend to be a little hard to play at first, but hey... having the Boosted Reflexes spell as well as a few other buffs and other utility spells makes up for it.

If your adepts suck, well, thats something you might want to think about. Its all about who plays them.
Charon
Meh.

So this week it's the physad's turn to suck when compared to the street sam?

I'm guessing that if we were to make lists of the "Physads are too weak!" crowd and the "Street Sam are underpowered!" mob you'd mostly end up with list of people who prefer playing Physads and Street Sam respectively but are disapointed that their PC of choice doesn't rock hard enough in their opinion when compared to the competition.

Either way, I'm not touching this one. There's a physads and a street sam in my campaign. They're both happy and that's that.
NightmareX
QUOTE (emo samurai)
How do I balance this out? I halve all essence costs. All of them.

How does that balance anything? All you've done is halved the cost for both cyber boys and adepts, giving them both more stuff to play with.

Adepts don't need any help - their borderline overpowerful as it is. If they aren't you're not min-maxing them to the utmost (I have a noterious min/maxer that loves to play adepts - his adepts easily outshine the rest of the team).

The autohits idea is ungood.
Thanee
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Jan 22 2007, 12:01 PM)
Adepts don't need any help - their borderline overpowerful as it is.  If they aren't you're not min-maxing them to the utmost (I have a noterious min/maxer that loves to play adepts - his adepts easily outshine the rest of the team).

I would like to see one such Adept (out of curiousity)... can you post the essentials for one maybe?

Bye
Thanee
NightmareX
QUOTE (Thanee)
I would like to see one such Adept (out of curiousity)... can you post the essentials for one maybe?

Rico
Body Agility Reaction Strength
4 5 5 (7) 3
Charisma Intuition Logic Willpower
3 3 5 4
Magic: 7 Essence: 6.0 Edge: 3
Initiative: 8 (10) Passes: 1 (3)
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
Karma Current: 2; Total Earned: 54
Street Cred: 5; Notoriety: 1; Public Awareness: 2
Racial Abilities/Qualities: Adept, Ambidextrous, Aptitude (pistols), Addiction (smoking moderate), SINner (normal), Addiction (caffeine mild), Hunted (Yakuza level 2)
Skills: Pistols (automatics) 6/8 (+2), Unarmed Combat (Escrima) 2 (4), Clubs (Escrima) 2 (4), Infiltration 5 (7), Throwing Weapons 2, Long Arms 4, Dodge 3, Pilot Ground Craft 2, Athletics Skill Group 1, Con 4, Perception 3, First Aid 2, Etiquette (street) 1 (3), Automatics 2
Language Skills: English (native), Spanish 3
Knowledge Skills: Military Theory 5, Magic Theory 4, Police Procedures 3, Chemistry 3, Seattle Rumor Mill 2, Gang Id 4
Adept Powers: Improved Reflexes (level 2), Improved Pistols (level 2), Mystic Armor (level 2), Lowlight Vision, Flare Compensation, Improved Infiltration (level 2), Combat Sense (level 2)
Tradition: Warrior Path Adept, Grade 1 Initiate; Metamagics: Masking

=========

Not much to look at really, until you realize that with smartlinks he's rolling 15 dice to send heavy pistol ammo down range. The next most competant character in the team is a rigger, rolling 13 dice (Gunnery 4, Sensor 3, Control Rig 2, full VR 2, smartlink 2) to send ammo down range in a Steel Lynx. Everyone else is rolling about 10 dice in their top area, and the troll magician adept is rolling a whopping 7 dice.
ixombie
The pure adept is at a disadvantage to the Samurai when starting out. But this has always been the case. It's also always been the case, and still is, that Adepts have less limits on their potential advancement than sammies.

But when you make a cybered combat adept, the distinctions in starting power largely disappear. You can take muscle toner, bone density, and synaptic accelerator without losing much magic. Then sink your power points into combat sense and improved ability. This will leave you just a point or two lower than a samurai in most attributes, but with a totally sick dodge pool. Dodge rules combat in SR4, and so does surprise since it prevents people from dodging. Adepts can get an extra +6 vs surprise and on defense tests that sammies can never get, as well as a +3 to dodge from improved ability. Going that route, you have the adept's unlimited advancement combined with the samurai's high stats and reflexes. When built that way, adepts really start to outshine mundane combat characters by virtue of being so incredibly difficult to hit.
ThreeGee
If they suck right now, lord knows what they did in editions 1 2 and 3...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
I think the auto hit idea is very interesting, when implemented well.

Interesting is indeed the right word. Back to Adeptrun, I guess.

BTW - it's good that backgroundcount now limits Adepts, too.
Thanee
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Not much to look at really...

Enough to get an idea what you mean... thanks. smile.gif

You don't have any min/maxed Samurais in your group, or do you? wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Serbitar
I personally would like the following changes:

Improved Pysical Attribute: 0.5 per rating (still not that good)
Attribute Boost: up to 0.5, only rating 1
Improved Skill: OK (mostly)
All things that give +1 die for only one test get their effect doubled (give +2 dice plus other effects doubled), this includes: Great Leap, Falling, Wall Running, and much more (the stuff why you want to be an adept)
Kinesics: capped like Pheromones (because they effectively raise Charisma)
Traceless Walk: 0.5
Reflex Stuff: 1.5 per Rating
Living Focus: 0.5

And some others which I forgot. Look at my thread here for a detailed overview.
James McMurray
QUOTE (ThreeGee @ Jan 22 2007, 07:45 AM)
If they suck right now, lord knows what they did in editions 1 2 and 3...

If my ancient brain recalls correctly, SR1's adepts did get auto hits with their power. The rules wasn't removed from the next edition because of how fair and balanced it was.
Kyoto Kid
...So far I've played two Adepts: KK4.3 and Hurricane Hannah.

I personally have few issues and actually think in some ways they've been improved.

For one, Killing Hands is a one time expenditure and not stepped (since the L-M-S-D damage codes are no more)

Second, Critical Strike is cheap. for 1 PP you can add +4 to your unarmed DV. With a 5 Str that gives you a starting DV of 7 - on par with a sporting rifle.

(With the combination of the above an adept is a weapon focus).

Third. Improved ability can be used on specific skills within a skill group (check the Gunbunny Adept Sample Character)

Fourth, with the elimination of damage codes SR4 did away with the magic loss for Deadly Wounds.

The two downsides I see are:

The higher cost of rasing your magic above 6.

I agree, some of the new powers in Street Magic (like Wall Running) are too expensive.

BTW, I would be very hesitant to use the Auto Hits option. This is similar to the old Auto Successes power from SR1 which was dropped from later versions.
Lantzer
This is a silly discussion.

I thought everyone knew that the way to go for the powergamer was an adept with 'ware?

You get just a couple of really expensive pieces of 'ware that the sammies can't afford to get in their packages (and will unlikely ever afford to upgrade to), then spend the rest of your career upgrading along the magic path.

A true powergamer doesn't choose one route over the other - he uses the best from _both_. Actually, He goes with a cybered mystic adept if he's looking really long term.

EDIT: Just so folks know, This was semi-tongue in cheek. It's true, but I don't reccomend ditching a fun character to make the next adept death machine. I'm playing a sammie right now.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I believe this to be fair.

I bet you do. nyahnyah.gif

Seriously, you've kept the same cost but tripled the bonus. Plus, if it's adding hits rather than dice it no longer applies to the dice cap, so by mixing it with things like reflex recorders you're adding even more dice.
In my game I have a mix of adepts and sammies. I guess if you're not getting anyone playing adepts then it might be a problem, but it's probably a problem with your 400 other house-rules rather than the core rules.

I know your games are AWESOME, and I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but I am saying that in light of how many house rules you have and your play-style, it makes it pretty damn difficult for anyone to have a meaningful conversation about game balance with you.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Seriously, you've kept the same cost but tripled the bonus.

Actually, it four times the benefit... plus the removal of the 'no stress' rule.
Xenith
*shakes head* Seriously, I have a player with an adept orc throwing specialist who's a bloody death machine with a magic of -4-

Adepts are defiantly not underpowered. I even made an adept who could talk his way out of any situation, had multitasking, and facial sculpt to the point he could literally look like anyone. He was also rather frightening with pistols (dice pool of 10). He had a magic of 5.

Underpowered. Bah.
mfb
QUOTE (emo samurai)
In my game, the Improved Skill power will give you an auto-hit. One dice out of every roll using that skill will be a success. The power will be limited to skill level. I believe this to be fair.

with the fixed TN used in SR4, that actually is fair.
lorechaser
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Jan 22 2007, 06:25 AM)
Not much to look at really, until you realize that with smartlinks he's rolling 15 dice to send heavy pistol ammo down range.  Everyone else is rolling about 10 dice in their top area, and the troll magician adept is rolling a whopping 7 dice.

Seriously?

10 dice in their top area?

I'm not in the adepts are underpowered category, or the sams are underpowered category, but 10 dice?

Agility [5 (7)] + Automatics (Assault Rifle) [6(8)]

That should be the baseline for your adept or your sammie. So 15 dice to start. Then either a reflex recorder or improved ability, and a smartlink. That's 18 dice easy.

My gunslinger adept rolls 20 dice with Automatics. My Sam rolls 18, but has a better reaction and is tougher.

The only true issue I accept is that there are some places where it's possible that the adept powers are always overshadowed by the equivalent Bio.

That's improved reflexes, and improved ability. IR is balanced by the 32 bp (out of your 50) nuyen cost. It still may not be enough. Improved Ability is the only adept power I buy as legitamately underpowered (esp. given Boost Ability).
emo samurai
The thing with autohit is, whatever dice hit can not be rolled. So if you have Agility 6 + Blades 4 and you have 4 autohits, you can only roll 6 dice. You don't get 10 dice plus 4 hits. And you can't autohit attribute dice, only skill dice. And any negative dice pool modifiers remove autohits. That's before any positive modifiers are granted.
HappyDaze
QUOTE (lorechaser)
Agility [5 (7)] + Automatics (Assault Rifle) [6(cool.gif]

That should be the baseline for your adept or your sammie.

What you consider 'baseline' appears to be very nearly the maximum for a starting character. I'm not's sure everyone will agree that 90% peak is a 'baseline' value.
Serbitar
Baseline for SAMs:

Attribute 4-5, Attributeware 3, Skill 4-5, Specialisation 2, Skillware 1, Smart 2 = 16-18 dice.

15 dice is the least I expect from a SAM using his primary weapon.
lorechaser
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
QUOTE (lorechaser)
Agility [5 (7)] + Automatics (Assault Rifle) [6(cool.gif]

That should be the baseline for your adept or your sammie.

What you consider 'baseline' appears to be very nearly the maximum for a starting character. I'm not's sure everyone will agree that 90% peak is a 'baseline' value.

Only in their primary skill. It is about the cap, yes.

To be fair, it's not in line with what the book suggests as a normal level. But for a serious survivor, I think it's pretty well required.

SR really requires competency to survive, I feel. With the ease of death, an average runner will be dead in a week.

But that's a matter of preference, I know.

I guess more to the point, there's not that much difference between an adept and a sammie in those regards. Both primarily rely on their skills and attributes. They then have the option to boost their skills by a couple points with ware/adept powers, and then to boost their attributes by the same.

In my defense, I'm on at least 3 different OTC meds for allergies today. I'm...uh...not sure how that plays in, but I think it does. Somewhere.
sunnyside
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the healing bit. I'm away from my book but I'm pretty sure they didn't take that out of magic and I know it's in regular first aid.

While the hit limites and starting threshhold of two on healing means you won't get the SR3 effect where when a Sammie goes down he stays down and when an adept goes down he's back at full health in a few combat turns (first aid, then magical healing).

But it's still a difference that favors an adept along with their concealability. Which means that they SHOULD be worse at straight up combat. (Though I do think some things are now overpriced.)

Also part of what made an adept go from good to great before were some of their super stealth abilities. But I don't have the new books. Can they still walk without noise on top of leaves or balance on the tiniest of branches?
Moon-Hawk
Yes, adepts still have Traceless Walk.

And I think the adepts' healing advantage is lessened in this edition since by many people's interpretation of the healing rules 10 boxes of damage takes all of a day or two to heal. (note that there are more than one interpretation, several of which make a good deal more sense to me, but there is still some ambiguity and confusion)
2bit
lol . . . adepts underpowered. I guess you also forgot with how much ease they can dispatch spirits.
Thanee
Not Force 20 spirits...

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the healing bit.

You mean apart from the very first reply (and the re-reply)? wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
WhiskeyMac
How are Adepts more concealable when every important place that they would be sneaking into would have someone with astral sight assense them for talent? In order for you to tell if someone has wired reflexes and other cyber that is inside the body you have to use tech or you can't tell anyway. Besides, if I was a security guard in 2070 I would be wary of anyone who was 40 years or younger who didn't have either cybereyes or a datajack or both. I would then call up the mage and have them assense the person. Wireless just came out about 5 years ago so datajacks aren't completely useless yet and cybereyes are still considered "cool" and "fashionable".

Oh yeah, not to nitpick but with the sample uber-adept his addictions aren't legal. Nicotine and Caffeine aren't considered "harmful" enough to warrant BP.

I think without a Magic hardcap Adepts are always going to outpace Street Sammies anyday. They always have and always will as long as that hardcap isn't there.
djinni
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Wireless just came out about 5 years ago so datajacks aren't completely useless yet and cybereyes are still considered "cool" and "fashionable".

wireless came out 5 years ago? yeah but everything is wireless. cool/fashionable is dependant upon your social circle
so anyone who could have afforded a datajack can also afford to have it removed.
what about induction pads?
I have never seen an adept outpace any streetsam.
and all we see in this thread is people "talking"
adepts are fine, adepts are uber powered, adepts are underpowered...
Sammies are better, sammies are worse...
why not show the examples of why adepts are better or sammies are better.
Serbitar
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Jan 22 2007, 11:24 PM)
I think without a Magic hardcap Adepts are always going to outpace Street Sammies anyday. They always have and always will as long as that hardcap isn't there.

Not in SR4.

I give you 150 Karma and 450k (thats a ratio of 1 to 3k) on top of the 400 BP
Try to make an adept without cyberware (note face adept though, kinesics are broken) that is better than its cybered version.

Adepts start to outpace SAMs only at incredibly unrealistic karma amounts of 300 or so.
Naysayer
With only 1 or 2 in 100 people magically active, I wonder where you are going to get all those astrally percieving watchdogs?
In sensitive areas, yes. But definitely not as commonplace as ware-scanners.

My personal playing experience with adepts is limited to SR2 (yes, I am quite old, me), and I always felt even were chickenshit compared to even the standard out-of-the-box BBB-sams.
With SR4, I feel the playing-field has been a bit evened, at least on paper.
Unless you're min-maxing. Then, a well-cybered char can wipe the floor with a pure adept. Attribute-powers are, and have always been, too damn expensive.

Seriously though, my approach would probably be to gimp bio a bit. Make toner and aug a wittle more expesive, essence-wise. But then, I tend to like my SR low- to mid-powered, where a rating 5 is actually good and a 6 something you can aspire to...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Adepts start to outpace SAMs only at incredibly unrealistic karma amounts of 300 or so.

You forgot a zero there.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (lorechaser)
Seriously?

10 dice in their top area?

I'm not in the adepts are underpowered category, or the sams are underpowered category, but 10 dice?

Agility [5 (7)] + Automatics (Assault Rifle) [6(cool.gif]

That should be the baseline for your adept or your sammie. So 15 dice to start. Then either a reflex recorder or improved ability, and a smartlink. That's 18 dice easy.

I look at your stats, tho, and go, "That's just crazy huge out there. Seriously? *Crazy!*"

Here, it's 4 (6) Agility with Firearms 4 and a Smartlink giving the Sammy 12 dice, making him a *monster*, while everyone else is in the 8-12 range.

The mage, for example, is Conjuring Group 4 and Magic 5, the Face is Charisma 5 and Influence Group 4, the Hacker is Skill Groups of 4 and rating 4 programs, etc.

8-10 is standard issue, with 12 being just crazy good.

Roni
QUOTE (Xenith @ Jan 22 2007, 12:41 PM)
*shakes head* Seriously, I have a player with an adept orc throwing specialist who's a bloody death machine with a magic of -4-

Underpowered. Bah.

There you go, talking about my character again. Don't forget my bouncyball ownage on the last run though.

[edit] Don't forget to mention that we only started out with 450 karma for our characters, using a slightly modified version of SeCKsy.
FrankTrollman
I think that the idea of charging Adepts extra for Increased Combat abilities is dumb. Adepts are supposed to punch people in the nuts, that's their iconic fucking job. Increase Attributes also shouldn't cost extra when the attribute is very large, since the only god damned point is that it is an attribute augmentation that exceeds your normal attribute limits.

And if you want to have Distance Shot and Elemental Strike at the same time to throw fireballs like Ryu, why the hell not? And people certainly shouldn't be paying more than a single Magic Point for either power when both are objectively inferior to just being a Mage and knowing a single spell.

So I'm willing to say that Adepts are overcharged for a lot of things. But autohits are bullshit. That was tried in SR1, and it was broken as fuck. With real broken and real broken sauce.

-Frank
Roni
I don't like the idea of auto-hits...That just means that phys adepts automatically own everybody else. I don't see that Adepts are gimped anyway. Maybe some people out there just can't really get the numbers to work right for them.
mfb
QUOTE (Roni @ Jan 22 2007, 08:28 PM)
I don't like the idea of auto-hits...That just means that phys adepts automatically own everybody else.  I don't see that Adepts are gimped anyway.  Maybe some people out there just can't really get the numbers to work right for them.

no, it doesn't. that's the neat thing. because the TN is fixed and everything is threshold-based, auto-successes don't mean auto-winning--they just mean that the effective threshold for their tests are lowered.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
So I'm willing to say that Adepts are overcharged for a lot of things. But autohits are bullshit. That was tried in SR1, and it was broken as fuck. With real broken and real broken sauce.

auto-successes would be horribly unbalanced in a variable-TN system, because they would allow you to succeed against any difficulty level. TN 100? no problem! however, when every TN is 5, auto-successes don't unbalance anything (unless they're handed out too liberally, which is true of any mechanic).

of course, SR4 doesn't actually use auto-successes...
emo samurai
Well, there are threshold modifiers for jumping in VR into a drone; -1 to each threshold.
mfb
exactly. -1 threshold is, basically, an auto-success. you just can't use that success unless you roll at least one success on the dice.
toturi
There is always an evolution from edition to edition. There are somethings that mundanes were good at that adepts are better (for) now, like hacking. There are somethings that adepts are going to be flat better at, like Social and "Brain" skills. The adept niche has changed. I do not presume to know what role the developers wanted the adepts to fill, but if I wanted to hazard a guess, I would think that they wanted people to move more towards a non-Combat skill oriented adept. Adepts are weakened in Combat Skills, but they are better now in other things.
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