2.6M

I thought it was 2.4 million.

That is if you pay in cash.

Why?

People are always bringing up the "unlimited" magic potential of adepts?
Why not the unlimited potential of bio/cyberware?

You steal a couple of T-birds from Aztech or such, and you have a good part, if not all the money you need. And probably the delta clinic contact too, just cause you are causing grief to Aztech.

I did, and you guys are still full of it. In practice, Adepts are superior to Sams in every possible way...just last year I had people trying to explain to me why Sams should even be in the game anymore, given how ridiculously good Adepts are now.

How many games involve Street Sams with a few billion nuyen worth of gear installed? You're comparing a pie in the sky concept samurai against a starting level adept, and you think it's unfair that one outstrips the other?

I'm not mad yet. But you're pushing me that way.

I'm AM pointing out power comparisons. Their concept of powerful and my concept of powerful seem to be out of sync. Whatever. To each their own.

I've not seen the uber kind of power they speak of from a sami who's not lugging around a weapon that defeats half the purpose of shadowrunning. In fact they only examples they give me are of loud weapons that get you killed first. I've also not seem the same level of power from mage thats being run like a mage who values their own life. Once again, overcasting should always be a last resort, or close to it, or you're just powergaming and at that point the whole arguement of who's balanced against who is moot. Numbers and rules do not denote the entirety of Shadowrun "balance"; the history, concepts and flavor text matter at least as much as the rules and numbers.

And again, despite their examples, I've not seen how 9P twice in a pass before any successes is not powerful. Its the same as a pistol on burstfire. So what? Then make a gun adept. Still scary. No smartlink to back you up, well thats what improved ability is for. Not the most efficient use of power, but effective nonetheless. If you think 9P base for about 2 magic (because thats all it takes to boost it to that) is weak then you are thinking in a whole different arena than I am and its not even worth my time to argue the point. Wish I'd though about it that way before.

I'd say that the argument of unlimited magic potential is also pretty useless in a discussion about adept vs. sams.

Actually, you can get a smartlink put into non-cyber vision enhancements(glasses, contacts, etc.) Helps out alot.

Its quite an ongoing debate, what i might sit down and do is simply make up a sam and adept, dump X karma onto each of them(using cash for karma or karma for cash for both) and see what happens after that. Since most GMs i know give 3-5 karma per session, x4 sessions a month, for 12-20k a month, x12 months for a total of...144-240 karma...lets say 200 after a year.

Using 200 karma, lets see what both look like. However my twink skills might not be on par with some. Ill try it anyway to see which is scarier.

My prediction is that both are going to be roughly equal. (I forget the karma for cash ratio, but lets say something like 3k for 1 karma, and vice versa.)

Also, ill give both a total of 200,000 nuyen, ill be really kind and say they pulled big jobs at rougly 20,000 nuyen a month and sock it away and live on the down-low.

Tho im sure this has been done and its still inconclusive, or still weighs in favor of one or the other.

Cyber/Bioware isn't unlimited in its potential. There is a hard limit on how much essence you have, and every point of essence you lose creates a serious disadvantage for you. Adepts have neither of these problems.

...alright, alright.

Essence is not the only limiting factor, there are also those pesky Augmented Attribute caps. Yes Muscle Toner or Augmentation 4 would be nice, but if it exceeds the cap, doesn't mater if it's Omega grade.

...good way to be in the market for a Jarvic-VII "Sports Model" Heart replacement.

...did the same with Hurricane Hannah. Yeah she has those"wimpy"throwing knives, however, she also has a thing for Grenades. She usually has a couple of Flash-Bangs & Pepper Punch (the latter of which actually have been very useful) in her shoulder pack.

Woot!

This thread now covers at least three great debates!

1. Sams vs Adepts.
2. Powergamers vs Roleplayers
3. Balance vs Fun

WOO!

To steal a phrase, "Posting in a Legendary Thread"

Ah, true.

Examples? I can also make up things without giving facts. But that doesnt make them true.

How about this for a "role"-playing reason:
I am a professional criminal.
I am good at my job.
I carefully research my targets, plan my missions, acquire the right tools for the job, study the applicable law and opposition, the history/politics/current events of the area, and do everything I can to be the best professional criminal possible.
I define "the best" as acquiring the most wealth from my job while imposing the least risk possible.
Cyberware and bioware are tools used by other members of my profession, sometimes with impressive results.
Thus, cyber/bioware is a tool I should at least consider using in my chosen profession.

Well? That's how I see any intelligent shadowrunner viewing this situation, and I see no reason to exclude adepts from this thought process. It's the tail end of the 21st century. Not using such an enormously valuable tool is nothing more than stupid (for the character! Not necessarily their players reading) and I...will probably post a longwinded rant on the subject if I don't stop now.

True, there are other caps, but, unless I am mistaken, they are also applied to all augmentations, including magical ones

To be able to use that "unlimited" potential, it will take years of real time, let alone game time. I have a char that I started in SR1, with reality shimmers between editions to bring him in line with the new rules. He has over 2000 karma, with his magic attibute now at 16. More than half the karma has been spent on skills. And his best combat skill is at 28 dice, due to a weapon focus, otherwise, his skills range from 12 to 19.

In the time that he has played, cyberware and bioware costs, both nuyen and essence have dropped drastically.

So, in my view, both are well matched, as tech will keep getting better (example, a lot of vision upgrades can now happen in contact lenses, with no essence costs), but magic will probably stay about the same. So, after another 20 years game time, I am sure that more tech will be available out of body, and what does go into the body will be even more essence friendly.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=15834&hl=

Try searching for OneTrikPony in that thread. That's the first example off the top of my head. I do remember a couple months back the prevailing theme on DS seemed to be that Sams were underpowered, and magic was running away with things.

Not really one I bought in to, but it certainly isn't something that just JonathanC thinks.

I would have no problem with that approach in a player, as long as he played a char that did follow those principles.

But not all chars will be that precise and methodical.

That power throwing adept I talked about ealier, he played his char very impulsively, and hated being restrained in any way. So, could not talk himself into getting cyberware.

There are indeed some Cyber-/and Bioware Pieces Adepts cannot substitute with their Powers:

Platelet Factories (-1 Damage, when more than 1 Damage at once is received)
Adrenaline Pump (User falls not unconscious, +Willpower raises by rating)
Pain Editor (User falls not unconscious, gives +1 Willpower)
Skillwires + Datajack, (ok with unlimited Karma useless ...)
And a few more ...


At least Platelet Factories and Adrenaline Pump I should be interesting for any Adept. (-0,95 Essence, Basicware)

As far as I know there are only 3 ocasions where adept powers are worth something:

- as a face using Kinesics (broken)
- as a SAM using improved skill as a supplement
- attribute boost (too cheap, totally stupid mechanics)

So this are 3 adept powers worth something out of how many?

It would probably be boring if most characters were like that, at least to the point of consciously rationalizing their situation in such a manner. However, the above wasn't intended to be a description of a conscious statement, but of a, most likely, subconscious thought process that shadowrunners would find themselves going through. And as for being impulsive, well Hell! That's how I first got pierced! Cute girl + alcohol + metal show (Buny!) + tatoo/piercinng parlor = which side of my face gets a new hole first?

I digress. I would view impulsive behavioral patterns as being more likely to result in the installation of cyber/bioware. At least the small, readily available stuff. The question of how artificial enhancement would restrain the character also intrigues me. Could you elaborate on this motivation, please?

I can easily see "role"-playing (as it's been called) reasons for anyone, not just adepts, rejecting artificial enhancement: religion, involvement in a sport banning such aid (the Olympics were noted as being particularly anti-everything-but-mundane-unenhanced-humans), surgical related phobias, and paranoid distrust of the gov't/corps who monitor everyone through their cyber.

Others have mentioned the balance v. fun and munchkins v. "real" roleplayers topics, and I shall address them with the following, self-agrandizing, bit of pontification.

I have noticed, both in my core roleplaying group and online reading, a divide in how Shadowrun is played. There are two dominant camps: the cyberpunk camp and the professional criminal camp. The first plays games characterized by the high-tech low-life, SINless street dwellers with attitude fighting the globalizing, dehumanizing, titanic greed of the megacorporations, influenced by early cyberpunk work (Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Cyberpunk RPG); the second plays games emphasizing teamwork, professionalism, and planning, more like the movie Heat than the first. Many groups seem to start in the cyberpunk camp and then drift slowly into the professional criminals camp, though this may simply be influenced more by the game line itself's evolution away from its 80s cyberpunk roots.

Aging and maturation of players may also play a role in this, not that playing a group of street toughs is a sign of immaturity in players, but more that most players of SR eventually become more adept at planning crimes themselves (but that analysis of heightened fascination with criminal activities is another discussion). Inevitably, the professional criminal camp, though frequently possessed of all the roleplaying skill and motivation of the cyberpunk camp, begin more carefully designing their characters to achieve success within the mathematical framework of the game; on gaming forums this is sometimes accompanied by the term "min-maxing," where a characters strengths are developed and weaknesses are addressed during creation and in-game development.

Uh...I'm sure at least four or five people have posted more interesting and on-point posts since I began this, so I'm going to return to the fun-filled world of legal memorandum now.

It is most dope, is it not.

As an alternative take on Mistwalker's reply to this...it's an element of the setting, a part of the way the world is presented, that magicians and adepts are reluctant to use cyber or bio. The rules should provide a model for the way the world works. If the setting says 'magically active people avoid augmentation', but the rules are written in such a way that it is advantageous for magically active people to be augmented, then there's a conflict between the two. We can't just assume that all of those NPCs are idiots, after all

So, either the rules should support the premise that magically active folks who avoid augmentation are somehow better off than those who don't, or the fluff-text should reflect a change in attitudes in the direction of mildly-augmented magicians.

I was mostly thinking of the bigger items.

There is the surgery, where you are immobilized, by drugs, by restraints, or both.

Then there is the recovery time, and learning how to use you new parts.

I have had surgery, most recently for my knee. Not being able to move after the surgery was a royal pain. With my knee mostly locked in one position, it was like wearing a hobble. Stairs became an annoying challenge, specially living in a house with the only washroom on the top floor, but the computer and TV on the bottom floor.

HERESY! BURN THE GODDAMNED ORC-LUVIN FLOWER-CHEWIN MOTHER----ER AT THE STAKE!

...and I would argue that you have. Adepts don't even need to bother with strength enhancements...they have strike enhancers that let them do massive melee damage without even needing a weapon. I've seen (in my own games) Adepts that can lay waste running around butt-naked. Toss some armor on them, and maybe a mage to back them up, and it gets ugly.

Toss them against a Sam with mage backup, and watch the mage cry the first time he tries to throw out a healing spell on his chromed buddy.

Point taken. I'm finished here. Tell me when you all finish this, k?

you're pointing out power comparisons, and then whenever someone points out that he can be matched by a character who takes combat as a secondary area of expertise, you're saying "well, i didn't build this adept to be powerful, i built him to be cool".

you built a cool knife guy--great. you don't care whether or not your knife guy is as powerful as someone else's street sam or adept build--great. but the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not an adept can keep up with a street sam--to compare how powerful one type is in relation to the other. you've stated quite clearly, several times, that you're not here to do that. you want to get mad at me for pointing out that you're sidestepping the entire crux of the argument, go ahead.

Shhh...
It's after midnight. Confronting irate posters with logic after midnight is like feeding Mowgli; it really shouldn't be done unless you have...

<blink>

How the fuck did that movie end?

Agility? Body? Reaction? Armour? Strength for skill tests?

Everything is about 2-5 times more expensive for the adept than the SAM.
A good SAM will have maxed Agility, maxed Reaction and high Body and high Strength. Adepts can only dream of this.

The species is named Mogwai. Gizmo is just a specific one.
However, the condition of never feeding them after midnight is impossible to fulfill since it is always after midnight. It is like geasing your Killing Hands to only work when you aren't hitting anything.