Do adepts suck right now? - Dumpshock Forums

Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do.

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Kyrn

Jan 24 2007, 06:43 PM

Post #126

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Xenith)

Also, I thought that this was a discussion about how much adepts sucked? I see no suckage in that last post.

I'll say this again; ADEPTS ARE FUCKING AWESOME! You complain because its take so many points to get the same damage potential as something else? So the fuck what? That something else is more obvious and is something people look for. Its a different angle at play.

In fact, I'll substitute my throwing knives for something else; a grenade... in fact two or maybe even four of them. BOOM. I fucking win.

Xenith, you're either lazy or stupid. I'm going with lazy, as if you'd actually read what I've been saying you'd see that not once have I ever denigrated the noble adept in SR4. In fact a number of my examples have used adepts, because of the simple fact that I don't think adepts suck, I think your adept is a poorly prioritized, niche character which I am glad that you've enjoyed playing, but that I feel could be focused in a more useful direction. Again, I've already mentioned this is a taste thing.

Throwing knives must carry enough mass to be worthwhile weapons at range, and thus are generally rather large, however as magic is playing into this I'll just sigh and move on. (I used to have throwing knives, but even after practice I still sucked with the damnable things.) I also don't recall ever mentioning the YSF was silenced, thus the reason I provided examples of more stealth friendly approaches.

Oh, and your grenade vs. my launched, airburst linked, smartlink slaved mini-grenade means we both promptly die, hopefully to allow this thread to return to topic, which I think is that the OP is wrong and adepts trump sams as adepts get magic and ware.

hyzmarca

Jan 24 2007, 07:00 PM

Post #127

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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 24 2007, 10:55 AM)

Congratulations. You have spend a considerable amount of BP and Karma for what anybody can do with a heavy pistol.

But the adept can do it with a paperclip. Smuggling a heavy pistol into a high security area is a lot more difficult that smuggling a paperclip into a high security area. It doesn't even have to be a paperclip. It could be a playing card or a screw. It could be a rolled-up newspaper or a pointy paper cur from the water fountain or his can of soda. He could even pick bullets out of his armor and throw them back at his enemies.

James McMurray

Jan 24 2007, 07:08 PM

Post #128

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

He could even pick bullets out of his armor and throw them back at his enemies.

That has to be far and away the best use for missile mastery ever.

Kyrn View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 07:12 PM Post #129
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815	All right, now that is damned cool.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 07:15 PM Post #130
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	And it can't be done by street sams. Why'd FanPro wanna gimp the sammies?

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 07:34 PM Post #131
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	My favorite moment was when the adept with missile mastery and incompetance pistols needed some help from the street sam ejecting the clip so that she could get some ammo to throw. :-)

Grinder View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 08:03 PM Post #132
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Why didn't he throw the pistol?

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 08:07 PM Post #133
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	If she just threw the pistol she'd be unarmed and have to scavenge for more debris to throw. With the clip ejected, she could throw the pistol and still have 16 more things to throw.

djinni

Jan 24 2007, 08:09 PM

Post #134

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

If she just threw the pistol she'd be unarmed and have to scavenge for more debris to throw. With the clip ejected, she could throw the pistol and still have 16 more things to throw.

but she was incompetent with pistols, how did she know it had bullets, and that the clip could be ejected?

Grinder View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 08:16 PM Post #135
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Incompetence doesn't mean that she know nothing about pistols.

Grinder

Jan 24 2007, 08:17 PM

Post #136

Great, I'm a Dragon...

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

If she just threw the pistol she'd be unarmed and have to scavenge for more debris to throw. With the clip ejected, she could throw the pistol and still have 16 more things to throw.

Bah, a good MM adept would have killed the target with the pistol throw! :grinbig:

Wakshaani View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 08:18 PM Post #137
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629	And an excellent MM Adept would have hurled the pistol, killed the guy, had the pistol bounce off their helmet, off the wall, and back to her hand like a boomerang, to throw again. ... So I read a lot of Captain America comics!

Grinder View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 08:29 PM Post #138
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	That sounds like a really cool MM adept, yes. Or like a good Archer adept in Earthdawn. ;)

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 08:40 PM Post #139
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	I'm sure SR5 will finally be the combining of ED and SR, and we'll truly learn if humanity can defeat the horrors.

Xenith View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 09:07 PM Post #140
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	Roni actually used the bullets in an ejected clip to knock out two security guards at once. It made me laugh and kept them from being shot at in a nanite contaminated area. (they had suits on)

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 09:37 PM Post #141
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...whew...too much... All said & done, I really don't care who thinks what character type is better or worse. My two favourite characters right now are both adepts. I like playing them. They have their strengths and their challenges. That is what makes them interesting to play. The bottom line to all this is, if you like a certain character concept, go with it.

Xenith View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 09:47 PM Post #142
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	Most definitely.

djinni

Jan 24 2007, 10:31 PM

Post #143

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Grinder)

Incompetence doesn't mean that she know nothing about pistols.

No Rating Unaware: A complete absence of knowledge or practice...
Firearms Example: Never seen a gun before.
Iccompetent Negative Quality: A character who is Incompetent possesses a total lack of knowledge or ability with a certain Active skill.

yeah it does...

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 24 2007, 10:34 PM Post #144
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	djinni called the gaming police on me! They r in my game, killin my fun! Im playing sr wrong! O NOES!!!1 I approved the flaw, much fun was had by all, can we move on? Okay, I'm obviously cranky. It's time to go home now.

Grinder

Jan 24 2007, 11:04 PM

Post #145

Great, I'm a Dragon...

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QUOTE (djinni)

QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 24 2007, 03:16 PM)

Incompetence doesn't mean that she know nothing about pistols.

No Rating Unaware: A complete absence of knowledge or practice...
Firearms Example: Never seen a gun before.
Iccompetent Negative Quality: A character who is Incompetent possesses a total lack of knowledge or ability with a certain Active skill.

yeah it does...

Uuuups. :oops:

Grinder

Jan 24 2007, 11:05 PM

Post #146

Great, I'm a Dragon...

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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

The bottom line to all this is, if you like a certain character concept, go with it.

What, no more "why adepts/sams/blind dogs/ninja drop bears are better/worse then adepts/sams/blind dogs/ninja drop bears"-threads? :eek: :grinbig:

Serbitar

Jan 24 2007, 11:12 PM

Post #147

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

Kinda the whole point of Adepts, originally, was that they could do as much damage as a gun, WITHOUT A GUN. Thus, y'know, being able to enter a secured area unarmed and still get things done.

thats what mages are for

Serbitar

Jan 24 2007, 11:16 PM

Post #148

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 24 2007, 10:48 AM)

And kinesics is broken. It works exactly like an attribute boost but without the caps.

Just to offer another perspective:

Kinesics is definitely an overpowered ability, but since it only augments an underpowered stat I find that, in practice, it's not as overpowered as it seems. (I point to the poll we had several months ago that had Charisma and Strength pegged solidly as SR4 dump stats)

With kinesics, I have a character who's primary role on the team is Face. I know that's normal for some groups, but for me that is a special thing. She has a bunch of social powers, and some missile mastery and powered throw just so she can contribute to a fight, but first and foremost she is a face. She contributes in major, meaningful ways to the runs, and I have not found her 15+ dice in social situations to be terribly unbalancing.

Now granted, the lack of caps is a problem, allowing Mango the Pornomancer adept, but that's a minor issue of a cap less than an issue with kinesics itself. If it really bothers you, I'd suggest replacing Improved Ability: Charisma with Kinesics, leave the cost of kinesics alone, and apply the attribute cap.

In summary, without kinesics I didn't see anyone taking social skills as anything except a tertiary role. Now I have a real Face who contributes without overpowering. In my game that = balanced. But like I said, that's my game. If you already had people wrestling each other for who got to play the face, then it's probably more of a problem for you, but it's a problem that I wish I had.

Why not just cap kinesics like normal? you can still ahve a very good face adept, but none that is blowing every other dice pool in SR4 out of the water (we are talking 3-4 dice here)

Serbitar

Jan 24 2007, 11:21 PM

Post #149

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jan 24 2007, 07:00 PM)

How's this for the 333 karma, 1M Y challenge:

Karma Spending Assumptions:
Cost of attributes is based on non-racially modified stat (costs less)
Cost of raising magic is based on magic stat before essence loss (costs more)

Starting; tried to make a playable character here. Only real weakness is lack of edge.

[ Spoiler ]

Challange solution not accepted. You are using Cyberware in fields where there would be adept powers available (even in the field where adepts used to excell, perception), proving the cyberware solution is superior and the adept powers inferior. That was the whole point.

To stress it even further: Remove the adept, replace increased reflexes 2 with karma later on. Get the 50 BP starting money in ware, and you have exactly the same character only without combat sense, but wiht a huge ammount of resources to spend (karma and money).

In fact the only thogh you take with you from being an adept is the combat sense. The rest is a SAM.

Serbitar

Jan 24 2007, 11:22 PM

Post #150

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 24 2007, 10:55 AM)

Congratulations. You have spend a considerable amount of BP and Karma for what anybody can do with a heavy pistol.

But the adept can do it with a paperclip. Smuggling a heavy pistol into a high security area is a lot more difficult that smuggling a paperclip into a high security area. It doesn't even have to be a paperclip. It could be a playing card or a screw. It could be a rolled-up newspaper or a pointy paper cur from the water fountain or his can of soda. He could even pick bullets out of his armor and throw them back at his enemies.

If that is the only reason, use a mage.

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