Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do. Options

[Serbitar]

@ Xenith

PLease post your character. I suspect he can only do this throwing knives trick and thats it (which is not very impressive. Cyberadepts throwing 25 dice with pistols are impressive). So he is good for that one occasion which a mage can do with 5 karma.

[Kyrn]

If the argument is just that anything an adept can do, a sam can do too, then you have to look at the reverse. Anything a sam can do by purchasing ware, an adept can do better, by purchasing the same ware and supplementing it with magic. Want a bareknuckle bruiser? The sam gets bone mods. The adept gets bone mods, and critical strike. A quickdrawing pistolero? The sam gets reflex boosters and a smartlink. The adept does the same and purchases improved ability pistols. A sleuth? The sam decks his eyes and ears out with all the mods he can get. The adept then does the same but with four or more extra dice from enhanced perception to boost all his perception rolls.
You may argue that this makes adepts sams, and you're right. It does. But you're not really talking about street samurai in your argument anyway, you're talking about mundane characters. And mundane characters are cheaper to make for a reason; they are not as powerful as magically awakened characters. A sam in my book can be a mundane with ware, a straight up adept, or a character who gasp blends magic and technology to create a being more powerful than one who utilizes only magic or tech. I always thought of that as being the point of Shadowrun anyway.


Wow, I'm extra special ranty today. With a dollop of self-righteousness sauce on top.

mmm...self-righteousness sauce...

[James McMurray]

Hey! you got your self-righteous sauce in my bemused onlookery!

[Thain]

To fuel the fire, here is my thought on An Adept Adjustment.

[Kyrn]

[Serbitar]

Some Suggestions:

attribute boost: 0.5 (only one rating) drain equal to hits
great leap: +2 dice per rating, +2 agility for distance
improved physical attribute: 0.5 per level
improved reflexes:1.5 per level
improved sense: 0.1 per sense
kinesics: capped at 9 charisma +kinesics dice (plus race and exceptional boni like normal)
natural immunity: +2 dice per rating
pain resistance: 0.25 per level
rapid healing: +2 dice per rating
spell resistance: 0.25 per rating
analytics: +2 dice per rating
animal empathy: +2 dice per rating
berserk: add immunity to stun damage modifiers
blind fighting: 0.25
cloak: +2 dice per rating
counterstrike: 0.25 per rating
distance strike: 1
facial sculpt: +2 dice per rating
freefall: 4 meter per rating
gliding: 0.5
iron gut: +2 dice per rating
iron lungs: +2 dice per rating
ironw ill: +2 dice per rating
living focus: 0.5
magic sense: 0.25
melanin control 0.25
metabolic controll: 0.25
motion sense: 0.25
multi tasking: 0.25
nimble fingers: +2 dice per rating
piercing senses: +2 dice per rating
rooting: +2 dice per rating
temperature tolerance: +2 dice per rating
traceless walk: 0.5
wallrunning: 2 meters per hit


reasons: most of the 0.25 per rating = +1 dice for a test that will occour 1 or 2 times in a runners lifetime are never taken. a better idea would to not give +2 dice per rating but to reduce costs to 0.125 points

effectively 50%-80% of the used adept powers are senses, improved reflexes, improved skills and traceles walk. most of the other stuff is never used.
Have you ever seen an adept with Iron Will, or Iron Guts?

[James McMurray]

[Serbitar]

[Kyrn]

[Kyrn]

[Serbitar]

Most of the dice apply only to a very specific test. And I really dont mind an adept that can jump down 20 meters and jump 10 meters wide when about every mage out there can fly.

Concerning Counterstrike: It has to be cheaper than the improved skill in that field because it is more specialized, concerning the Improved Reflexes, just look at synaptic accelerator. And why is multitaksing a balancing problem?

[Protector152]

@ Kesslan and Ophis, thanks i didn't know they had changed imp ablity. on the up side you don't need it past lvl 3 anymore so you can spend the 1.5 power points on something else

[Kyrn]

First, I have no issue with the falling and jumping. 20 and 10 though, he'd better be paying. Anyway, Counterstrike I really don't see as having to be cheaper than Improved Ability (melee skill); it doesn't share the same structure as that power. IA is limited to three, CS is only limited to magic. I see it as a power a character takes after maxing out IA in the melee skill of his choice. Hell, it even applies to all melee tests, not just those in one skill. Thus I find it to be more powerful than IA. Especially so at half price. For Improved Reflexes, I am looking at synaptic accelerator when I say that. Wired is the gold standard here, the synaptic accelerator is way out on the pointy end. For the BPs, it's actually pricier than improved reflexes (as shown by someone at some point in I believe this thread), and dropping IR below wired in cost is just a little...cheap is the word I'd have to use. Wired has been the gold standard for every edition of SR, it's balance for all levels of play is kind of hardwired into the Essence balancing system. Playing with that is dangerous.

Multitasking...well, for .25 you're going to allow 2 free actions a phase outside of combat, which I don't understand at all. When do you use combat phases outside of combat? Anyway, more importantly it makes Observe in Detail a free action. A free action granting +3 dice to perception tests. 3 dice for .25 is too cheap. 3 dice for .5 is already borderline twinky.

[Kyoto Kid]

[hyzmarca]

[James McMurray]

True, but Daredevil can't dodge your manabolt and make you freak out.

[emo samurai]

That's Bullseye. :D

He can't fly, or control minds, or blow up a tank if he tries hard enough. Nor can he read minds, create illusions, shape all forms of matter, create walls in midair...

Yeah, adepts need a leg up.

And it's not like .5 PP per stat point is game-breaking; I mean, muscle toner is .3 essence, and suprathyroid glands, which increase all physical stats, is .7 essence.

And .5 PP per improved ability point is WAY too much unless you make it a threshold modifier.

[Roni]

@ Serbitar, Xenith

If I knew that my adept was going to cause so many problems, I wouldn't have said anything. But I know that my character is lacking in so many ways. I'm using 150 karma less than you allow starting characters, Serbitar. I used some karma in Artisan, so that our character setup would make a little more sense (we weren't origionally ShadowRunners, we were a band). My character was designed to be weak, yet strong. We were all starting off as 17 year olds who knew little to nothing about the Shadows. For christ's sake, I could make a better adept than I did make; and I could make a better sam than the character I made.

What we're all forgetting is that it all comes down to is how the dice roll, and how much FUN we have.

[emo samurai]

AWESOME == FUN.

[Crusher Bob]

Here's my current ideas on fixing the balance between adepts, sams, and cyber-adepts. Right now, the cyber adept wins outright because there are some great 'cherries' to pick on either side of the divide. Just looking at combat abilities, the current cherries are synaptic boosters, muscle toner, reaction enhancers, superthyriod gland and on the adept side combat sense, improved ability?, critical strike?, mystic armor?

My impressions is that there are the following: The utility of low essence ware and high magic rating are both low. The utility of high magic and low essence should both be raised to reduce the magic middle.

Objective:
Manipulate the numbers so that the cyber-adept, straight adept, and straight sam are roughly equal at least to the 200 karma, 600K Y range. Given unlimited karma and money, the cyber adept will be the most powerful character, but this should be delayed beyond the range of most campaigns.

Low utility of high magic rating
There is currently not much point to a high magic rating, all the broken adept powers are readily available around magic rating 4.

Proposed solution: Limit most leveled adept powers to 1/2 magic rating. Most 'character' adept power like great leap have effects doubled to reflect lower available ratings.

Increased IPs
Synaptic boosters are probably the worst of the lot, there is basically no character that would not benefit from synaptic -2. First impression solution here: remove them from the game. Change wired reflexes to:

Wired Reflexes rating 1-3
Essence: rating x 1.5
Availability: Rating x 4 F
Cost: rating X 40,000

Reduce adept costs of improved reflexes to 1.5 magic per level.

So, the advantage of the SAM is that he can get his IP increases at lower cost , but has to put up with detection issues. The cyber adept dosen't really gain anything from getting wires. In addition, having additional IP is such a significant advantage that it requires a large share of your 'class points' (essence or magic)

Combat Sense
This is probably the second worst offender.

Add the following ware:

Tactical Computer rating 1-4 (gives combat sense ability)
Essence: rating x .5
Availability: Rating x 5 F
Cost: rating x 25,000

Gives non adepts the ability to get bonus passive defenses.

As the combat sense adept power would be limited to 1/2 magic, this gives a bit more parity between the two. A cyber-adept @ magic 8 could get a lvl 4 tactical computer (lowering magic to 6) and 3 levels of combat sense for +7 passive defense. However, this is only 3 dice over a straight sam or a straight adept, not the 6 dice over the straight sam it was before.

Super Thyroid
Increase essence cost to at least 1. (requires some number crunching/testing, but a sam is probably getting his bioware at half essence b/c of wired reflexes, a cyber-adept might not be)

Muscle Toner
Remover muscle toner, muscle augmentation changed to:

Muscle Augmentation rating 1-4 (adds +STR + 1 AGL per level)
Essence: rating x .5
Availability: Rating x 5 F
Cost: rating x 15,000

Make cyber adepts pay more for increased AGL via cyberware. Hopefully sams will not suffer too much from teh increased essence costs. (requres some number crunching)

Sample characters: (assuming the ~200 karma, 600K Y range)

Assuming Base stats of BOD 3, AGL 3, REA 3, STR 3

Straight Adept

[ Spoiler ]

8 magic:
Powers:
Increased Reflexes -2 (3 magic)
Combat Sense -4 (2 magic)
Increased AGL -3 (1.5 magic)
Increased REA -3 (1.5 magic)

Ending Stats:
BOD 4, AGL 9, REA 9, STR 7
passive defense 14 dice

straight Sam

[ Spoiler ]

cyber ware (all alpha, 5.52 essence, 580K)

wired 2
m-aug 4
supa thy
react -3
tac comp 3

Ending Stats:
BOD 4, AGL 8, REA 9, STR 8
passive defense 12 dice

Sigh, still not quite right. Straight adepts are still comming out too weak and cyber-adepts too strong (seems divide is a bit smaller now, though sams now have less options as well).. how to power them up without also powering up cyber-adepts?

[Grinder]

[Xenith]

Name: Karl

Lifestyle: Low

Body: 7
Agility: 4
Reaction: 3 (5)
Strength: 7

Charisma: 2
Intuition: 3
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3

Edge: 3
Magic: 5

Initiative: 6(8) (IP 3)

Skills:

Close Combat: 2
-Unarmed Combat: 4
-Blades: 3

Throwing Weapons: 5 (7) Spec. Knifes
Artisan: 3 (5) Spec. Guitar
Intimidate: 2
Perception: 3
Dodge: 2
Infiltration: 2 (4) Spec. Urban

Knowledge Skills:

Gang I.D.: 5(7) Spec. Wichita
Wichita Area: 3
Read/Write (Academic): 3
History (Academic): 3
Literature: 2
Orzet: 3
German: 3


Qualities:

Pos:
Adept
Guts
Human Looking
Resistance to Pathogens

Neg:
Sensitive System
Sensitive Neural Structure


Adept Powers:
Power Throw: 2
Improved Reflexes: 2
Missile Mastery: 1
Strength Boost: 2

Contacts
Agent 4/2


Gear:
Armor Jacket
-Nonconductivity 6
-Insulation 6
-Fire Resistance 6
-Chemical Protection 6

Throwing Knifes (x45)
Frag Grenade (x5)
High Explosive Grenade (x1)
Wood Throwing Knifes (x20) (we house ruled these, they do 1P less damage, but don't show up)

Meta Link/Iris Orb
Sub-Vocal Mic
Earbuds
-Audio Enhancement 3
Contacts
-Thermo Vision
-Vision Enhancement 3
-Flare Comp

-----------------
This is after they had been playing for a while. The story behind the Jacket (I assume) is because his mom is a retired 'runner. He also decided to raise his Magic just last session. And yes, the character is 17 and in a band (the lead singer and guitarist).

[Kil2k]

@Xenith
You should take a look at page 213 in the core book.
Your System Rating (Software) is limited by the Response (Hardware) so you need at least a Novatech Airware (Response 3) to run the Iris Orb (System 3) properly.

The Firewall is also affected by the lowered System rating, so if your GM knows that, you had all the time a Firewall 1 running!

There's a reason why the Meta Link is as cheap as it is. But maybe your Character does not know that, but you do ? Then forget it, and back to topic :P

[Serbitar]

Damn Xenith this character is really a one trick pony, and not even a good one. After throwing knive he rolls only 8 dice in his seond best test (Infiltration).

A perfect example of what I wanted to say with "adept have to buy style by sacrificing all effectiveness".

Does he ahve anyporpourse besides getting knives somewhere and throwing them?

A SAM with high agility and skillwires surpases this character in every aspect.

[Roni]