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Serbitar
post Jan 25 2007, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
How much does that delta synaptic booster 3 cost?

2.6M
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Mistwalker
post Jan 25 2007, 08:06 PM
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I don't think adepts suck, nor do I think sammies suck.
Both have their place, and can be combined as well.
The only real tweak that I see, is the one I mentioned earlier about lowering the cost for increased reflexes.

I think it depends a lot on what kind of game you want to play, what power level, and the group.
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Mistwalker
post Jan 25 2007, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jan 25 2007, 09:03 PM)
How much does that delta synaptic booster 3 cost?

2.6M

I thought it was 2.4 million.

That is if you pay in cash.
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James McMurray
post Jan 25 2007, 08:09 PM
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So it's way more than is useful in a adepts vs. street sams discussion?
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Mistwalker
post Jan 25 2007, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
So it's way more than is useful in a adepts vs. street sams discussion?

Why?

People are always bringing up the "unlimited" magic potential of adepts?
Why not the unlimited potential of bio/cyberware?

You steal a couple of T-birds from Aztech or such, and you have a good part, if not all the money you need. And probably the delta clinic contact too, just cause you are causing grief to Aztech.
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JonathanC
post Jan 25 2007, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 25 2007, 08:22 PM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 25 2007, 07:10 PM)
I want pure adepts to be usefull and stylish and not completely outclassed by mages and SAMs.

SAMs on the other hand are done quite perfect in SR4.

They aren't. They pretty much out-class Sams in my experience. They have no penalties to healing (unlike Sams), they are much, much harder to detect, and their combat abilities are simply amazing. Plus, there is no upper limit on how many powers they can have...you just need the Karma to initiate and upgrade your magic rating. If you made adepts any more attractive to play than they are now, then you might as well remove cyberware from the game; playing a street sam will have become totally useless.

Please re-read this thread.

I did, and you guys are still full of it. In practice, Adepts are superior to Sams in every possible way...just last year I had people trying to explain to me why Sams should even be in the game anymore, given how ridiculously good Adepts are now.

How many games involve Street Sams with a few billion nuyen worth of gear installed? You're comparing a pie in the sky concept samurai against a starting level adept, and you think it's unfair that one outstrips the other?
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Xenith
post Jan 25 2007, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 25 2007, 01:55 PM)
no, it's your fault for getting mad at people for wanting to discuss power comparisons in a thread about power comparisons.

I'm not mad yet. But you're pushing me that way.

I'm AM pointing out power comparisons. Their concept of powerful and my concept of powerful seem to be out of sync. Whatever. To each their own.

I've not seen the uber kind of power they speak of from a sami who's not lugging around a weapon that defeats half the purpose of shadowrunning. In fact they only examples they give me are of loud weapons that get you killed first. I've also not seem the same level of power from mage thats being run like a mage who values their own life. Once again, overcasting should always be a last resort, or close to it, or you're just powergaming and at that point the whole arguement of who's balanced against who is moot. Numbers and rules do not denote the entirety of Shadowrun "balance"; the history, concepts and flavor text matter at least as much as the rules and numbers.

And again, despite their examples, I've not seen how 9P twice in a pass before any successes is not powerful. Its the same as a pistol on burstfire. So what? Then make a gun adept. Still scary. No smartlink to back you up, well thats what improved ability is for. Not the most efficient use of power, but effective nonetheless. If you think 9P base for about 2 magic (because thats all it takes to boost it to that) is weak then you are thinking in a whole different arena than I am and its not even worth my time to argue the point. Wish I'd though about it that way before.
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James McMurray
post Jan 25 2007, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
People are always bringing up the "unlimited" magic potential of adepts?
Why not the unlimited potential of bio/cyberware?

I'd say that the argument of unlimited magic potential is also pretty useless in a discussion about adept vs. sams.
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Mistwalker
post Jan 25 2007, 08:28 PM
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@Xenith

Don't let mfb get to you. From what I can tell, he seems to be a crochety and cranky fellow who does not like SR4, and enjoys annoying those that play it.

Remember, you didn't post your stats until others asked. You were discussing if adepts suck or not until then.

As for your adept, I feel he is fine. Suited to your setting.
:)
One of my players made a similar char, with no firearm skills, cause he was from the barrens, learned how to throw really well, and ended up with thrown weapons (rubble). He has so far refused to learn any firearm skills. And, on runs carries used bullets from different ranges (tried to misdirect the forensics).
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ElFenrir
post Jan 25 2007, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE
No smartlink to back you up



Actually, you can get a smartlink put into non-cyber vision enhancements(glasses, contacts, etc.) Helps out alot. :)

Its quite an ongoing debate, what i might sit down and do is simply make up a sam and adept, dump X karma onto each of them(using cash for karma or karma for cash for both) and see what happens after that. Since most GMs i know give 3-5 karma per session, x4 sessions a month, for 12-20k a month, x12 months for a total of...144-240 karma...lets say 200 after a year.

Using 200 karma, lets see what both look like. However my twink skills might not be on par with some. Ill try it anyway to see which is scarier.

My prediction is that both are going to be roughly equal. (I forget the karma for cash ratio, but lets say something like 3k for 1 karma, and vice versa.)

Also, ill give both a total of 200,000 nuyen, ill be really kind and say they pulled big jobs at rougly 20,000 nuyen a month and sock it away and live on the down-low.

Tho im sure this has been done and its still inconclusive, or still weighs in favor of one or the other.
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Xenith
post Jan 25 2007, 08:31 PM
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Actually, my cousin posted the stats while I was away at work. XD

Thats a neat trick though. I'll store that away for future refrence. :D
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JonathanC
post Jan 25 2007, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jan 25 2007, 03:09 PM)
So it's way more than is useful in a adepts vs. street sams discussion?

Why?

People are always bringing up the "unlimited" magic potential of adepts?
Why not the unlimited potential of bio/cyberware?

You steal a couple of T-birds from Aztech or such, and you have a good part, if not all the money you need. And probably the delta clinic contact too, just cause you are causing grief to Aztech.

Cyber/Bioware isn't unlimited in its potential. There is a hard limit on how much essence you have, and every point of essence you lose creates a serious disadvantage for you. Adepts have neither of these problems.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jan 25 2007, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Cyber/Bioware isn't unlimited in its potential. There is a hard limit on how much essence you have, and every point of essence you lose creates a serious disadvantage for you. Adepts have neither of these problems.

...alright, alright.

Essence is not the only limiting factor, there are also those pesky Augmented Attribute caps. Yes Muscle Toner or Augmentation 4 would be nice, but if it exceeds the cap, doesn't mater if it's Omega grade.

QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Jan 25 2007, 08:14 PM)
You steal a couple of T-birds from Aztech or such, and you have a good part, if not all the money you need. And probably the delta clinic contact too, just cause you are causing grief to Aztech.

...good way to be in the market for a Jarvic-VII "Sports Model" Heart replacement.

QUOTE (Mistwalker)
One of my players made a similar char, with no firearm skills, cause he was from the barrens, learned how to throw really well, and ended up with thrown weapons (rubble). He has so far refused to learn any firearm skills. And, on runs carries used bullets from different ranges (tried to misdirect the forensics).

...did the same with Hurricane Hannah. Yeah she has those"wimpy"throwing knives, however, she also has a thing for Grenades. She usually has a couple of Flash-Bangs & Pepper Punch (the latter of which actually have been very useful) in her shoulder pack.
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James McMurray
post Jan 25 2007, 09:29 PM
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I didn't want to derail things more with talk of stealing t-birds, let alone from Aztech. But yeah, it's not something my players would even consider, knowing what kind of a storm would raise up if someone were to make that sort of a run on the Azzies (or Ares, etc.)
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lorechaser
post Jan 25 2007, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (Xenith)
I've not seen the uber kind of power they speak of from a sami who's not lugging around a weapon that defeats half the purpose of shadowrunning. In fact they only examples they give me are of loud weapons that get you killed first. I've also not seem the same level of power from mage thats being run like a mage who values their own life. Once again, overcasting should always be a last resort, or close to it, or you're just powergaming and at that point the whole arguement of who's balanced against who is moot. Numbers and rules do not denote the entirety of Shadowrun "balance"; the history, concepts and flavor text matter at least as much as the rules and numbers.

Woot!

This thread now covers at least three great debates!

1. Sams vs Adepts.
2. Powergamers vs Roleplayers
3. Balance vs Fun

WOO!

To steal a phrase, "Posting in a Legendary Thread"
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Serbitar
post Jan 25 2007, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 25 2007, 03:05 PM)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jan 25 2007, 09:03 PM)
How much does that delta synaptic booster 3 cost?

2.6M

I thought it was 2.4 million.

That is if you pay in cash.

Ah, true.
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Serbitar
post Jan 25 2007, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 25 2007, 09:16 PM)

I did, and you guys are still full of it. In practice, Adepts are superior to Sams in every possible way...just last year I had people trying to explain to me why Sams should even be in the game anymore, given how ridiculously good Adepts are now.

Examples? I can also make up things without giving facts. But that doesnt make them true.
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Kyrn
post Jan 25 2007, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (Mistwalker)
QUOTE (Kyrn @ Jan 25 2007, 11:49 AM)
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
This, I think, would entice the adepts to keep it all in magic, rather than branch out into bioware.

Why bother? Why is everyone so hopped up about making straight adepts? Shouldn't an adept with cyber/bioware be better than one without?

I'm so confused by this desire.

Part of it is about keeping a straight adept, keeping the magic flowing.

Part of it is a subtle way of discouraging munchkin min/maxing. I know that you can get delta synaptic booster 3, with a commlink and a bit more gear, all for one magic/power point. You can do something similar with eyes and ears, get the cyber and save on the magic. All this for a small decrease in being able to be healed by magic, but leaving you with lots more power points to boost all the other adept/mystic adept powers.

If the adpet mostly sticks to bioware, with a bit of normal cyberware (commlink, eyes, ears, datajack...), they will be able to go anywhere and not set off any alarms, or raise suspicions, nor will they need permits.

I would rather that there be role playing reason for the adept/mystic adept going under the knife, and not roll playing reasons.

How about this for a "role"-playing reason:
I am a professional criminal.
I am good at my job.
I carefully research my targets, plan my missions, acquire the right tools for the job, study the applicable law and opposition, the history/politics/current events of the area, and do everything I can to be the best professional criminal possible.
I define "the best" as acquiring the most wealth from my job while imposing the least risk possible.
Cyberware and bioware are tools used by other members of my profession, sometimes with impressive results.
Thus, cyber/bioware is a tool I should at least consider using in my chosen profession.

Well? That's how I see any intelligent shadowrunner viewing this situation, and I see no reason to exclude adepts from this thought process. It's the tail end of the 21st century. Not using such an enormously valuable tool is nothing more than stupid (for the character! Not necessarily their players reading) and I...will probably post a longwinded rant on the subject if I don't stop now.
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Mistwalker
post Jan 25 2007, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (JonathanC)
Cyber/Bioware isn't unlimited in its potential. There is a hard limit on how much essence you have, and every point of essence you lose creates a serious disadvantage for you. Adepts have neither of these problems.

...alright, alright.

Essence is not the only limiting factor, there are also those pesky Augmented Attribute caps. Yes Muscle Toner or Augmentation 4 would be nice, but if it exceeds the cap, doesn't mater if it's Omega grade.

True, there are other caps, but, unless I am mistaken, they are also applied to all augmentations, including magical ones

To be able to use that "unlimited" potential, it will take years of real time, let alone game time. I have a char that I started in SR1, with reality shimmers between editions to bring him in line with the new rules. He has over 2000 karma, with his magic attibute now at 16. More than half the karma has been spent on skills. And his best combat skill is at 28 dice, due to a weapon focus, otherwise, his skills range from 12 to 19.

In the time that he has played, cyberware and bioware costs, both nuyen and essence have dropped drastically.

So, in my view, both are well matched, as tech will keep getting better (example, a lot of vision upgrades can now happen in contact lenses, with no essence costs), but magic will probably stay about the same. So, after another 20 years game time, I am sure that more tech will be available out of body, and what does go into the body will be even more essence friendly.
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lorechaser
post Jan 25 2007, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 25 2007, 09:16 PM)

I did, and you guys are still full of it. In practice, Adepts are superior to Sams in every possible way...just last year I had people trying to explain to me why Sams should even be in the game anymore, given how ridiculously good Adepts are now.

Examples? I can also make up things without giving facts. But that doesnt make them true.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=15834&hl=

Try searching for OneTrikPony in that thread. ;) That's the first example off the top of my head. I do remember a couple months back the prevailing theme on DS seemed to be that Sams were underpowered, and magic was running away with things.

Not really one I bought in to, but it certainly isn't something that just JonathanC thinks.
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Mistwalker
post Jan 25 2007, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Kyrn)
How about this for a "role"-playing reason:
I am a professional criminal.
I am good at my job.
I carefully research my targets, plan my missions, acquire the right tools for the job, study the applicable law and opposition, the history/politics/current events of the area, and do everything I can to be the best professional criminal possible.
I define "the best" as acquiring the most wealth from my job while imposing the least risk possible.
Cyberware and bioware are tools used by other members of my profession, sometimes with impressive results.
Thus, cyber/bioware is a tool I should at least consider using in my chosen profession.

I would have no problem with that approach in a player, as long as he played a char that did follow those principles.

But not all chars will be that precise and methodical.

That power throwing adept I talked about ealier, he played his char very impulsively, and hated being restrained in any way. So, could not talk himself into getting cyberware.
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Kil2k
post Jan 25 2007, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE ("Street Magic p.23: Cyberware")

, and some adepts let themselves be enticted by the lure of the unique combat boosts offered by cyberware.


There are indeed some Cyber-/and Bioware Pieces Adepts cannot substitute with their Powers:

Platelet Factories (-1 Damage, when more than 1 Damage at once is received)
Adrenaline Pump (User falls not unconscious, +Willpower raises by rating)
Pain Editor (User falls not unconscious, gives +1 Willpower)
Skillwires + Datajack, (ok with unlimited Karma useless ...)
And a few more ...


At least Platelet Factories and Adrenaline Pump I should be interesting for any Adept. (-0,95 Essence, Basicware)
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lorechaser
post Jan 25 2007, 10:12 PM
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Platelets were what I usually used to fill up the gap left by Muscle Toner 2.

It's a really nice addition. Of course, it helps if you remember you have it....
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Serbitar
post Jan 25 2007, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser @ Jan 25 2007, 11:00 PM)

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=15834&hl=

Try searching for OneTrikPony in that thread.  ;)  That's the first example off the top of my head.  I do remember a couple months back the prevailing theme on DS seemed to be that Sams were underpowered, and magic was running away with things.

Not really one I bought in to, but it certainly isn't something that just JonathanC thinks.

As far as I know there are only 3 ocasions where adept powers are worth something:

- as a face using Kinesics (broken)
- as a SAM using improved skill as a supplement
- attribute boost (too cheap, totally stupid mechanics)

So this are 3 adept powers worth something out of how many?
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Butterblume
post Jan 25 2007, 10:30 PM
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Multitasking is the most awesome adept power right now, at least in my opinion :cyber:.
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