Do adepts suck right now? - Dumpshock Forums

Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do.

lorechaser View Member Profile	Jan 25 2007, 10:37 PM Post #226
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168	I tried, I tried so hard.... Gliding. Wall running. 3-D Mastery. Multitasking. Killing Hands. Elemental Strike. Rooting. Commanding Voice. Combat Sense Empathic healing Freefall Inertia Strike Metabolic Control Missle Mastery Missle Parry Mystic Armor Nerve Strike Pain Relief Quick Draw (Quick draw a PAC!) Traceless Walk. Those are all things that Sams cannot simulate.

Kyrn

Jan 25 2007, 11:03 PM

Post #227

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QUOTE (Mistwalker)

QUOTE (Kyrn @ Jan 25 2007, 04:51 PM)

How about this for a "role"-playing reason:
I am a professional criminal.
I am good at my job.
I carefully research my targets, plan my missions, acquire the right tools for the job, study the applicable law and opposition, the history/politics/current events of the area, and do everything I can to be the best professional criminal possible.
I define "the best" as acquiring the most wealth from my job while imposing the least risk possible.
Cyberware and bioware are tools used by other members of my profession, sometimes with impressive results.
Thus, cyber/bioware is a tool I should at least consider using in my chosen profession.

I would have no problem with that approach in a player, as long as he played a char that did follow those principles.

But not all chars will be that precise and methodical.

That power throwing adept I talked about ealier, he played his char very impulsively, and hated being restrained in any way. So, could not talk himself into getting cyberware.

It would probably be boring if most characters were like that, at least to the point of consciously rationalizing their situation in such a manner. However, the above wasn't intended to be a description of a conscious statement, but of a, most likely, subconscious thought process that shadowrunners would find themselves going through. And as for being impulsive, well Hell! That's how I first got pierced! Cute girl + alcohol + metal show (Buny!) + tatoo/piercinng parlor = which side of my face gets a new hole first?

I digress. I would view impulsive behavioral patterns as being more likely to result in the installation of cyber/bioware. At least the small, readily available stuff. The question of how artificial enhancement would restrain the character also intrigues me. Could you elaborate on this motivation, please?

I can easily see "role"-playing (as it's been called) reasons for anyone, not just adepts, rejecting artificial enhancement: religion, involvement in a sport banning such aid (the Olympics were noted as being particularly anti-everything-but-mundane-unenhanced-humans), surgical related phobias, and paranoid distrust of the gov't/corps who monitor everyone through their cyber.

Others have mentioned the balance v. fun and munchkins v. "real" roleplayers topics, and I shall address them with the following, self-agrandizing, bit of pontification.

I have noticed, both in my core roleplaying group and online reading, a divide in how Shadowrun is played. There are two dominant camps: the cyberpunk camp and the professional criminal camp. The first plays games characterized by the high-tech low-life, SINless street dwellers with attitude fighting the globalizing, dehumanizing, titanic greed of the megacorporations, influenced by early cyberpunk work (Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Cyberpunk RPG); the second plays games emphasizing teamwork, professionalism, and planning, more like the movie Heat than the first. Many groups seem to start in the cyberpunk camp and then drift slowly into the professional criminals camp, though this may simply be influenced more by the game line itself's evolution away from its 80s cyberpunk roots.

Aging and maturation of players may also play a role in this, not that playing a group of street toughs is a sign of immaturity in players, but more that most players of SR eventually become more adept at planning crimes themselves (but that analysis of heightened fascination with criminal activities is another discussion). Inevitably, the professional criminal camp, though frequently possessed of all the roleplaying skill and motivation of the cyberpunk camp, begin more carefully designing their characters to achieve success within the mathematical framework of the game; on gaming forums this is sometimes accompanied by the term "min-maxing," where a characters strengths are developed and weaknesses are addressed during creation and in-game development.

Uh...I'm sure at least four or five people have posted more interesting and on-point posts since I began this, so I'm going to return to the fun-filled world of legal memorandum now.

Kyrn

Jan 25 2007, 11:03 PM

Post #228

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QUOTE (Butterblume)

Multitasking is the most awesome adept power right now, at least in my opinion :cyber:.

It is most dope, is it not. :love:

Nim

Jan 25 2007, 11:19 PM

Post #229

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QUOTE (Kyrn)

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

This, I think, would entice the adepts to keep it all in magic, rather than branch out into bioware.

Why bother? Why is everyone so hopped up about making straight adepts? Shouldn't an adept with cyber/bioware be better than one without?

I'm so confused by this desire.

As an alternative take on Mistwalker's reply to this...it's an element of the setting, a part of the way the world is presented, that magicians and adepts are reluctant to use cyber or bio. The rules should provide a model for the way the world works. If the setting says 'magically active people avoid augmentation', but the rules are written in such a way that it is advantageous for magically active people to be augmented, then there's a conflict between the two. We can't just assume that all of those NPCs are idiots, after all :)

So, either the rules should support the premise that magically active folks who avoid augmentation are somehow better off than those who don't, or the fluff-text should reflect a change in attitudes in the direction of mildly-augmented magicians.

Mistwalker

Jan 25 2007, 11:19 PM

Post #230

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QUOTE (Kyrn)

The question of how artificial enhancement would restrain the character also intrigues me. Could you elaborate on this motivation, please?

I was mostly thinking of the bigger items.

There is the surgery, where you are immobilized, by drugs, by restraints, or both.

Then there is the recovery time, and learning how to use you new parts.

I have had surgery, most recently for my knee. Not being able to move after the surgery was a royal pain. With my knee mostly locked in one position, it was like wearing a hobble. Stairs became an annoying challenge, specially living in a house with the only washroom on the top floor, but the computer and TV on the bottom floor.

Kyrn View Member Profile	Jan 25 2007, 11:40 PM Post #231
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815	Quoting Nim, editing messed up my block: "As an alternative take on Mistwalker's reply to this...it's an element of the setting, a part of the way the world is presented, that magicians and adepts are reluctant to use cyber or bio. The rules should provide a model for the way the world works. If the setting says 'magically active people avoid augmentation', but the rules are written in such a way that it is advantageous for magically active people to be augmented, then there's a conflict between the two. We can't just assume that all of those NPCs are idiots, after all :) " So, either the rules should support the premise that magically active folks who avoid augmentation are somehow better off than those who don't, or the fluff-text should reflect a change in attitudes in the direction of mildly-augmented magicians. [/QUOTE] Now the motivation to prevent any loss of a resource as precious as magic is a motivation I neglected to mention. I know it's there, but I'm AFMB. What sections in SR4 discuss the aforementioned aversion to ware? I'm pretty sure someone mentioned the bit in Street Magic where they discuss the number of mages with datajacks (a presence in canon since the original Secrets of Power trilogy, circa 2049) earlier in this thread. I think there's something in the BBB's character creation section about magicians and ware (essence of any kind, really). But I still think that refusing the ware is a compulsion that has faded since previous editions. It's been 21 years (in game) since the debut of SR, and I'm trying to think of an analogy that will illustrate the way I see the world's view of alteration. Okay, after five minutes the best I could come up with was something weird involving the internet, porn, and a sex addict. This means I should get back to work, but is there anyone out there telepathic enough to understand what I'm trying to say and phrase it better?

cristomeyers View Member Profile	Jan 25 2007, 11:47 PM Post #232
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 14-January 07 From: Zurich Orbital Member No.: 10,642	Not quite, but I am remembering that the 2nd ed pre-gen Combat Mage actually came with cybereyes.

Roni View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 12:20 AM Post #233
Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Wellington, KS Member No.: 10,734	In my opinion, you need a reason for everything you have. Why would an adept get cyberware? If you could make a good background story, I'd allow it. This is where everything comes down to...the GM. If you have a problem with the rules, house-rule it. The BBB isn't the fucking bible. Including what power(s) the adept lost when (s)he got the 'ware.

Kyrn View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 12:47 AM Post #234
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815	Oh my, a character background. I never would have thought of such a thing. Explaining why my character is who he is, why he does what he does, how he feels about different personal and societal issues, and why he's a shadowrunner. Amazing. I'm in awe of your simple wisdom.

Roni View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 12:50 AM Post #235
Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Wellington, KS Member No.: 10,734	It's the thing that seperates character sheets from characters. Come on...it's the essential part of everything. Why would a character do something to ruin his own powers to pick up powers from an external source. If that just happened to you, what would you do?

Demerzel View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 12:59 AM Post #236
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856	I think that this is largely a rules argument. So as someone who hasn't chimed in on this subject or voiced any opinion on the matter, I'll just add that RP concerns fall outside of the scope of the argument.

toturi

Jan 26 2007, 01:02 AM

Post #237

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The only time where RP does fall into the scope of the argument is when the GM thinks that adding cyber/bio is not good roleplaying and decides that he'd give less Karma to that PC. But strictly speaking, Karma is given for roleplaying during the game and not for down time actions.

QUOTE

In my opinion, you need a reason for everything you have. Why would an adept get cyberware? If you could make a good background story*, I'd allow it. This is where everything comes down to...the GM. If you have a problem with the rules, house-rule it. The BBB isn't the fucking bible.

HERESY! BURN THE GODDAMNED ORC-LUVIN FLOWER-CHEWIN MOTHER----ER AT THE STAKE! :D

JonathanC

Jan 26 2007, 01:03 AM

Post #238

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QUOTE (Serbitar)

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 25 2007, 09:16 PM)

I did, and you guys are still full of it. In practice, Adepts are superior to Sams in every possible way...just last year I had people trying to explain to me why Sams should even be in the game anymore, given how ridiculously good Adepts are now.

Examples? I can also make up things without giving facts.

...and I would argue that you have. Adepts don't even need to bother with strength enhancements...they have strike enhancers that let them do massive melee damage without even needing a weapon. I've seen (in my own games) Adepts that can lay waste running around butt-naked. Toss some armor on them, and maybe a mage to back them up, and it gets ugly.

Toss them against a Sam with mage backup, and watch the mage cry the first time he tries to throw out a healing spell on his chromed buddy.

Roni

Jan 26 2007, 01:03 AM

Post #239

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QUOTE (Demerzel)

I think that this is largely a rules argument. So as someone who hasn't chimed in on this subject or voiced any opinion on the matter, I'll just add that RP concerns fall outside of the scope of the argument.

Point taken. I'm finished here. Tell me when you all finish this, k?

Kyrn View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 01:07 AM Post #240
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815	Sarcasm is so often wasted on the young... :smokin:

cybertrucker View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 01:14 AM Post #241
Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,131	Both have advantages and disadvantages.. thats my 2 cents after running a game for the last year. A campaign which is about to come to a breaking point for awhile. Want to get a chance to play something instead of running all the time so one of my friends is going to run a Eberron Game (D20) for a few months while we break from SR4 for a bit.

mfb

Jan 26 2007, 03:10 AM

Post #242

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QUOTE (Xenith)

QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 25 2007, 01:55 PM)

no, it's your fault for getting mad at people for wanting to discuss power comparisons in a thread about power comparisons.

I'm not mad yet. But you're pushing me that way.

I'm AM pointing out power comparisons. Their concept of powerful and my concept of powerful seem to be out of sync. Whatever. To each their own.

I've not seen the uber kind of power they speak of from a sami who's not lugging around a weapon that defeats half the purpose of shadowrunning. In fact they only examples they give me are of loud weapons that get you killed first. I've also not seem the same level of power from mage thats being run like a mage who values their own life. Once again, overcasting should always be a last resort, or close to it, or you're just powergaming and at that point the whole arguement of who's balanced against who is moot. Numbers and rules do not denote the entirety of Shadowrun "balance"; the history, concepts and flavor text matter at least as much as the rules and numbers.

And again, despite their examples, I've not seen how 9P twice in a pass before any successes is not powerful. Its the same as a pistol on burstfire. So what? Then make a gun adept. Still scary. No smartlink to back you up, well thats what improved ability is for. Not the most efficient use of power, but effective nonetheless. If you think 9P base for about 2 magic (because thats all it takes to boost it to that) is weak then you are thinking in a whole different arena than I am and its not even worth my time to argue the point. Wish I'd though about it that way before.

you're pointing out power comparisons, and then whenever someone points out that he can be matched by a character who takes combat as a secondary area of expertise, you're saying "well, i didn't build this adept to be powerful, i built him to be cool".

you built a cool knife guy--great. you don't care whether or not your knife guy is as powerful as someone else's street sam or adept build--great. but the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not an adept can keep up with a street sam--to compare how powerful one type is in relation to the other. you've stated quite clearly, several times, that you're not here to do that. you want to get mad at me for pointing out that you're sidestepping the entire crux of the argument, go ahead.

Kyrn

Jan 26 2007, 05:37 AM

Post #243

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QUOTE (mfb)

you're pointing out power comparisons, and then whenever someone points out that he can be matched by a character who takes combat as a secondary area of expertise, you're saying "well, i didn't build this adept to be powerful, i built him to be cool".

you built a cool knife guy--great. you don't care whether or not your knife guy is as powerful as someone else's street sam or adept build--great. but the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not an adept can keep up with a street sam--to compare how powerful one type is in relation to the other. you've stated quite clearly, several times, that you're not here to do that. you want to get mad at me for pointing out that you're sidestepping the entire crux of the argument, go ahead.

Shhh...
It's after midnight. Confronting irate posters with logic after midnight is like feeding Mowgli; it really shouldn't be done unless you have...

<blink>

How the fuck did that movie end?

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 05:46 AM Post #244
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Assuming you are speaking about the old Disney Jungle Book, I think it ends with him following the girl into the human village. But I could be wrong.

Kyrn View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 05:59 AM Post #245
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815	Wait, did I get the name wrong...ah! Mogwai! Not Mowgli. Damn it. The furry little beastie from Gremlins...

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 06:29 AM Post #246
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Wasn't the fuzzy-wuzzy from Gremlins named 'Gizmo'? I think it ended with them chasing the mohawk gremlin around in a movie theatre and ends with him melting in the sunlight, or something like that.

Narse View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 08:55 AM Post #247
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 2-November 06 From: Bozeman, MT Member No.: 9,762	Um... sorry to be on topic here but I thought someone should mention that adept powers arent the only perks of being an adept. There is also meta-magic. It's true that most of it isn't very benificial to adepts but Adept Centering in particular is very useful. It allows adept to center like magicians in order to reduce negative modifiers to thier dice pool for any combat or physical skill by their initiate grade. That is all combat and physical skills (there are a lot!). Now think how many negative modifiers there are to dice pools for those skills (especcially combat). Also remember that you can always call a shot on an attack for a negative modifier of between -1 and -4 to incerease DV if for some reason you are facing no negative modifiers that you don't already have reduced.

Serbitar

Jan 26 2007, 09:45 AM

Post #248

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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 26 2007, 02:03 AM)

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 25 2007, 09:48 PM)

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 25 2007, 09:16 PM)

I did, and you guys are still full of it. In practice, Adepts are superior to Sams in every possible way...just last year I had people trying to explain to me why Sams should even be in the game anymore, given how ridiculously good Adepts are now.

Examples? I can also make up things without giving facts.

...and I would argue that you have. Adepts don't even need to bother with strength enhancements...they have strike enhancers that let them do massive melee damage without even needing a weapon. I've seen (in my own games) Adepts that can lay waste running around butt-naked. Toss some armor on them, and maybe a mage to back them up, and it gets ugly.

Toss them against a Sam with mage backup, and watch the mage cry the first time he tries to throw out a healing spell on his chromed buddy.

Agility? Body? Reaction? Armour? Strength for skill tests?

Everything is about 2-5 times more expensive for the adept than the SAM.
A good SAM will have maxed Agility, maxed Reaction and high Body and high Strength. Adepts can only dream of this.

hyzmarca

Jan 26 2007, 09:46 AM

Post #249

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

Wasn't the fuzzy-wuzzy from Gremlins named 'Gizmo'? I think it ended with them chasing the mohawk gremlin around in a movie theatre and ends with him melting in the sunlight, or something like that.

The species is named Mogwai. Gizmo is just a specific one.
However, the condition of never feeding them after midnight is impossible to fulfill since it is always after midnight. It is like geasing your Killing Hands to only work when you aren't hitting anything.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jan 26 2007, 10:02 AM Post #250
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	<pouty face> but, I'm always hitting things, in my mind. Will making karma for nuyen an official rule help both sams plus adepts without adding to cyber-adepts too much? My first impression is that is makes cherry picking by cyber-adepts much easier, since their advancement points can easily be spent in the area that gets them the most plusses. Using my numbers for earlier The straight adept gives his money to prost^F^F^Ffreezing match girls and gets 200 more karma. This lets him go from init grade 3, magic 9 to init grade 6, magic 12 (isn't that the cap?). - and crap I went to check the numbers in my previous post and noticed that a large part of the middle of what I had written got cut out somehow. The stats for the cyber-adept got completely eaten. Sigh. Since I have nothing better to do, I'll just do it all over again and repost, but assuming cash for karma. I think I'll run into problems here in that SR4 has sch low caps on advancement that 400 karma will be enough the get an adept to all the caps.

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