Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do. Options

[Crusher Bob]

Orks are the new master rate, the fact that they get +3 bod and +2 str for 20 points allows you to not put points into either of these stats.

So you can have a stat line of:

B 4
A 5
R 5
S 3

C 4
L 2
W 5
I 5

For 200 points, plus to 20 it cost you to be an ork.

As for the everyskill adept build, I'd guess:
ork, dumping logic

muscle toner-2 alpha, synaptic-1, reaction enhancers -1 (essence .97)
Magic - 5 (4)

Kinestics 4? (2 PP)
Improved hacking 2 (.5 PP)
Improved automatics 3 (1.5 PP)

skills:
unarmed -5 (AGL 7 + 5) (12 dice)
automatics -5 (AGL 7 + 5 +3) (15 dice)
hacking group-4? (11 dice for most hacking (lvl 5 program + 6 skill))
influence group --3? (CHA 4 + kinestics 4 + 3 = 11 dice)
perception 3 (int 5 + 3 + gears bonuses)
Infiltration -4 (only 11 dice)

~35 BP in gear

Another alternative is an elf the dumps, log, will, str and goes for the high AGL and CHA which saves on a few of skill points required for those pools.

[Crusher Bob]

The elf with the same dice pools looks something like:

Elf
B 2
A 6 (8)
R 5 (7)
S 2
C 7
L 2
W 2
I 5

same ware package as the ork

Dosen't even require that much magic
imp automatics -1 to get 15 dice
Imp hacking -2 to get effectics hacking skill of 6

So only needs to actually pay for magic of 2 (losing one to ware)

unarmed -4 (AGL 8 + 4) (12 dice)
automatics -6 (AGL 8 + 6 + 1) (14 dice)
hacking group-4? (11 dice for most hacking (lvl 5 program + 6 skill))
influence group --3? (CHA 7 + 3 = 11 dice)
perception 3 (int 5 + 3 + gears bonuses)
Infiltration -4 (AGL 8 + 4 =12 dice)

[Crakkerjakk]

I think the main point that several people are trying to make, is that they want a "purist" adept to be roughly equivalent to a "purist" sammy. That cybered adepts can kick some serious hoop isn't in debate. The question is are adepts, using a purely "how many dice am I rolling in (insert combat skill here)" criteria. Personally, I have nowhere near the amount of experience with adepts that is required to answer this question, but others in the past eleven pages have obviouusly argued whole heartedly for their viewpoints.

From the admittedly limited experience I've had messing with adept builds, I feel like there are two main points in the "adepts are underpowered" argument that I agree with tentatively.

One- Improved Reflexes Always seemed a little spendy to me. Especially considering that while it is the same as wired reflexes, your essence begins at six, as opposed to magic, which you have to buy up. Not to mention alpha-grade and up, or biotech.

Two- All of the really cool "flavor" abilities are fairly spendy. I am referring to stuff like wall running, missle parry, great leap, etc. While they seem like they could be "cool" I wouldn't spend points on them that could go into something considered more vital for a combat oriented campaign.

That being said, I think there are valid arguments in the "adepts are overpowered" camp.

First-A few powers are more powerful than their point cost, I feel, with a prime example being kinesics. In this particular instance I think a mere cap might be the most effective method of fixing this, although someone earlier mentioned limiting how many ranks you could take in a power to half your magic attribute. While that serves to fix the super-specialization of adepts, it also takes away one of the prime ways that they can compete with a fully cybered street sam.

Second- The cyber adept problem. I personally feel they're just too damn powerful. While I don't have a problem with the mixture of technology and magic, the cyber adept starts off too powerful in my opinion, although I will admit I've never played with anyone who went this route.

All in all, the only solution I can think of is carefully tinkering with a few power costs, while perhaps increasing the amount of essence lost by awakened beings to cyberware. Personally, I would like a system that I can hand to a bunch of min/maxers, and find that each tradition, cyber/cyber-adept/adept, can be made equally proficient in varying fields, be it stealth, combat, investigation, or social interaction. The final problem, of course, is how to create such a system without making cyber and adept powers different sides of the same coin. I enjoy the distinction between the two, and would prefer to keep them mechanically seperate.

I just thought of one final way in which sams seem to have a leg up. In order to increase their special abilities, they only have to buy more cyber, hence allowing them to allot karma entirely to atributes and skills. Meanwhile, adepts have to allocate karma to initiation as well as buying up their magic attribute, as well as their skills and attributes.

Hmph. What began as a slight clarification ended as a novel. Sorry.

[Crakkerjakk]

Thanks crusher. I made the mistake of trying to do the build with improved reflexes. My fave character back in the day was a initiative maxed street sammy, so I have a bad habit of trying to pump as much speed as possible into my character builds, which limits my options.

[Thane36425]

I usually make one of two kinds of adept: the stealth specialist or the tank. For stealth either Elf or human will do and will have stealth bonuses, light walk and some other things with skills focussing on stealth and infiltration like electronics and such to help spot and deal with alarms and keypads. The tank is usually a troll, with enhanced relfexes, death touch and maybe mystic armor. The tanks also get dermal plating which with maxxed out body and a troll's natural toughness, makes them hard to hurt, with the right armor. Skills are mostly hand to hand or they use an axe (in which case they don't take killing hands but something to help with axe-fighting) as well as a gun skill and athletics, mostly so they can run a little faster and close the range. Making a shooter tank is also an option, by adding a smartlink and focussing more on gun skills.

These have worked pretty well for me and my players. Rough descriptions of course.

Most of my mages do take a little cyber. That is usually a smartlink and cybereyes.

[Crusher Bob]

One of the disadvantages of many of the non-combat adept powers is that a mage has access to most of them in a more powerful and cheaper package. Want to be able to walk on paper, leap long distances, run on the walls? An adept would have to sacrifice a significant amoutn of power to do all of that, a mage just gets levitate.

[Serbitar]

[ElFenrir]

My opinion on the Roleplaying vs. Numbercrunching....there is nothing wrong with crunching a few numbers if it helps your character, but just dont let the character turn into ONLY a bunch of numbers. Again, balance is everything. Just have a reason for something, thats all. But dont be afraid to make your character effective.

[Serbitar]

Still, about all "style" powers for adepts are severley overpriced. If you look at my proposed correction it is 90% style powers cost reduction.

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm, another alternative is to give adepts the style power for free. Something like:

Up cost of being an adept to 15 pts. Have all adepts pick a way. You get the way power for free equal to half your magic. So all althete's way adepts can run fast, jump really far, and so on. This makes it 'obvious' that your adept should not be as good at the sam, you get all the other wonky powers. Are there enough style powers to hand out like that?

[Glyph]

Personally, I think that playing a "pure" adept should be less cost-effective than playing one who gets a few pieces of choice 'ware. There should always be the temptation to take "shortcuts", whether it be geasa, aspected powers, or some minor augmentations that give advantages that far offset their comparatively negligible affect on the Magic rating.

I don't think GMs should house-rule everything in sight to punish anyone who tries to make an optimal character build. If you want to play a more challenging type of character, then play it! Accept that your choices in character generation have made you less good at certain things, rather than whining to the GM that it's not fair that your technomancer isn't as well-rounded as the hacker, or that your adept isn't as good in combat as the one who took muscle toner: 2, or that your completely mundane character is overshadowed by the sammie in combat.

After I created an adept for one of the forum games, Tasha Deadeye, I realized that this character will probably never take bioware. Her reverence for the mojo that lifted her out of the ranks of the gutter trash, and her paranoid fear of drugs, 'ware, or anything else that could mess it up, mean that this character won't be getting that muscle toner. So I'll deal with her being a bit less powerful than she could be, otherwise. I think that's fine.

I think that making min-maxing meaningless doesn't encourage roleplaying, but dilutes it. If everything is the same, power-wise, then character choices never involve making sacrifices. Me, I prefer to meticulously craft and balance a character, not have everything handed to me.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Mistwalker]

Hmm, you could allow adepts to "buy" powers, similar and with the same limits, to what awakened chars can do with metamagic techniques, wihout initiating or raising MA.

[ElFenrir]

Well, another option off the top of my head, would be to allow powers at, say, a cost of X BPs/level, with a limit to the Magic attribute(so raising Magic would still matter, it would work for how high it can go, Drain for a couple, etc.)

Problem with this is some powers dont have levels(Astral Perception for 3 BPs would be too cheap), but raising the prices to 5 BPs would be too much, for say, Rooting. It might take awhile to work out a variable BP cost for the powers.

without testing it, though, its hard to see if it would be too powerful(an adept that devotes 50 BP to powers would have alot indeed), or too expensive(Technomancer syndrome of being pure BP sinks.) Some should obviously cost alot(Reflex Improvements), while the 'style' powers could be cheaper.

But its a thought. It might just be easier to go over all the Adept powers and adjust the prices of things you think are too much/too little.

Serbitar, i do like your 'power cost' adjustments in general.

I guess i came up with the BP thing because Mages have always spent Force points Spell Points, or Build Points for their spells, and they have always been more cost effective. Especially with the expendable, fetish based, etc. of old. Adept have ALWAYS been limited to their Magic attribute...i can sort of understand why its done, but at first glance it looks like it might be able to work for adepts, too. Of course, a limit could be given like Resources, etc. Perhaps Adept BPs spent can't be more than Magic Attributex something or other.

[James McMurray]

SR3 allowed adepts to up their magic for 20 points. That seems like a decent number to use with SR4 as well, if you think adepts need the boost.

[Kyoto Kid]

[James McMurray]

It still saw plenty of use, although not until the adept had initiated a couple times, because initiation was cheaper at first.

[Kyoto Kid]

...actually, with the cost of initiation + increasing MA I could go for the flat 20K per power point. Heck, the fist initiation and 7th MA rating point now cost anywhere between 30 - 34 K instead of 9 - 11 (depending on if the adept is using an ordeal and/or is part of a group). The restriction to using the 20 K rule would be that you do not receive any metamagic abilities (you would still need to initiate for those).

I have to consider this as a possible houserule.

[James McMurray]

I'd use it if I saw a problem with adept power levels, but I haven't seen one so far.

[GM on the Thresh...]

Lets take a look at some other numbers:

Assuming a Magic Attribute of 6...
Killing Hands (.5)
Critical Strike 6 (1.5)
Penetrating Strike 3 (.75)

Lets just say this guy is human and has a Strength of 1. In HtH hes hitting for:
7P -3AP No Reach mod
A human street sam with Aug max Strength of 9 with a Katana is doing:
8P -1AP 1 Reach
Give the sam a combat axe and the damage and reach improve by one.
9P -1Ap 2 Reach

If you figure that damage, AP and Reach are all equally important, then it takes a sam of same race with a maxxed out strength and major melee weapon (axe or monwhip) to equal or exceed the melee killing power of the adept with 1 strength (who still has 3.25 more Magic Points to spend).

Now, that same adept with a 6 strength:
9P -3AP No Reach mod
Or how about as a Troll with a strength of 10?:
11P -3AP 1 Reach
Panther Cannon you say?:
10P -5AP

While the gun has range, its usually not that hard to get into a melee. Plus, the gun goes against Ballistic armor whereas the troll will be resisted with Impact. And that gun likely won't make it into your normal nightclub.

So were does all this lead? To the simple answer that with the right player and the right sequence of number-crunching, anything is a major threat. Street Sams will blaze away with guns and Physads wll rule the melee. And when that troll points to his biceps and says 'Check out my guns', you better believe him. 8)

[djinni]

[GM on the Thresh...]

[Thain]

And if you look at my earlier post, you'll find that the BP spent by Samurai on chrome tends to equal the BP spent by Adepts on Magic.

¥250,000 = 50 BP
Adept with Magic 5 = 45 BP

Pot, met Kettle.

[ElFenrir]

Well, typically adepts I see spend about 40 BPs on magic(for the 5), occationaly you see one that pops the whole 65 into it.

Sams seem to have aobut 30-40 BPs invested in ware, depending on levels of stuff, bio combined with cyber. Sams devoted to total cyber can get away on the lower end, but sams stuffed with bio might have to devote the whole 50 BPs to resources to have enough left for gear and lifestyle.

Crunching the numbers this small, it gets tougher, but say, the adept with a 5 magic saves 10 more BP over the sam stuffed with bioware.

The cybered(or cyber with a bit of bio) sam vs. Adept with 6 magic comes out a bit better with the BPs, as does anyone over anyone who maxes ANY stat, really. Stat maxing is some costly business. Again, equals out in its own way, as the extra BPs adepts spend gives them access to some nifty stuff.

12 pages of this...hey, i have a way to solve it. Adept fans and Sammie fans each stand in different corners, with a large supply of fruit, eggs, hamster launchers and ping pong balls. Whichever side gives in first is the winner, and thats the more powerful one. :P

EDIT: yes, pointed out in post above while i posted about the 5 points for Adept as well.

[Glyph]

Adepts who soft-max their Magic tend to be about even, point-wise, with sammies. Sammies will nearly always take the full 50 build points on resources. The adept will generally spend 5 points on the adept quality, 40 points on magic, and 5 points on resources (since most adepts don't need that much of the pricy gear).

But you can have adepts who hard-max their Magic, sammies who start out cheap (say, only taking wired reflexes: 2, cybereyes, and muscle toner: 2), and lots of other variations.


I think I like adepts and sammies the way they are now because you need different strategies for creating them, and they fill different niches. I distrust house rules to "balance" them. Mainly because I worry that it will make adepts and sammies virtually interchangable, and thus far less interesting.