Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do. Options

[Fortune]

[Crusher Bob]

?!

Weapon foci do not add to magic. Imp ability is limited to 1/2 skill rating (so, basically 3). The dodge skill takes an action to do, so is almost never worth it. In addition, the gymnastics skill will do the exact same thing (for ranged combat, anyway), but is useful for other stuff as well. For close combat active defenses (as a close combat monkey), you should be relying on your close combat skill anyway.

[L.D]

That'd be the rating 6 weapon foci...

But the troll adept is breaking the rules in so many ways....

[Glyph]

For one thing, you can only get up to a rating: 2 weapon focus at char-gen due to availability. And a weapon focus adds to your dice pool for attacks with it - it does NOT raise your Magic Attribute. Improved Ability: Dodge, as someone mentioned, can only be 3 (1/2 the skill rating).

[Crusher Bob]

There's also 3 maxed stats (REA, AGL, MAG) at chargen (don't the only let you max 1)? A skill of 6 and as skill of 5 (only allowed one skill at 6 or two skills at five). It's possible the points don't add up correctly either. Really he might as well have written POWER LEVEL 9000+ on there somewhere.

[hyzmarca]

The difference between the adept and the Samurai is simple. At 500 karma, the Samurai will be throwing at least 12 dice in everything he does and at least 18 in what he does best. He even has a skill of 6 is sorcery and counter-spelling because he has nothing left to do with his karma but make Power Pacts with spirits who have Magical Guard and Innate Spell.
At the same level, the Adept is throwing upwards of 0 dice in what he does best but is probably still in the single digits with everything else.

Samurai are great generalists and poor specialists. Adepts are great specialists and poor generalists. It has always been so.

[Narse]

In my opinion adepts have always been kind of broken. Of couse I don't have as much experience with street sam, but it seems to me that some of the things adepts can do are kindof crazy. However it is true that street sams are more combat oriented, as far as the abilities provided by cyberwear go. I think this is what several of you are refering to when you say adepts cant compare to street sams with equivalent resources. But it is important to remember that adepts aren't always combat monsters. Adepts can be stealthy or charismatic or atheletic and many other things. Really it is this versitility that makes adepts of equal 'power' as street sams. Adepts can do some things that street sam just cant (improved skill, astral perception, combat sense, elemental strike, to name a few). And of course there are those combat niches where adepts are superior to cybered characters. For example throwing adepts can serously own, as far as I know there is no 'ware that enhances throwing abilities. So can meele troll adepts (weapon focus + improved skill > cyber spur + cybered attribute, IMO) and they have fun little abilities like counterstrike (combo that with combat sense). Furthermore some of the adept builds do have the 'concealability' factor. Cyber-replacements incur negative social modifiers (ok so bio avoids almost all of these, but its expensive!) where as no-one is likely to know that you have killing hands untill after you've hit them, Missile mastery is another example of an adept power that improves combat abilities with no-one being the wiser. The throwing adept is also a good example of the combat potential of adepts. with missle mastery and 5 levels of power throw an adept could throw hypodermic seringes for STR/2 + 5 P that also function as injection vectors for toxin attacks. (so with a trolls strenght of 9, and narcoject that is 10P now and 10S at the end of the combat turn. )

[Serbitar]

It is a myth that in SR4 SAMs have no potential and Adepts have all potential.

In SR4 a SAM has much more potential, because there is Bioware and Alpha and Beta Grades.

Making everything Apha/Beta, for about 1 Million Nuyen, a SAM can have almost all Cyber/Bioware that is available. Using a Karma to Nuyen ratio of 1:3k, this would be 333 Karma. A SAM with 333 karma and 1 Mio Nuyen is God, having about 8/0.8 = 10 Essence Points worth of Cyber/Bio (everything Alpha/Beta, with the Synaptic Alpha of course, that gives +3REA +3 IPS for 1.8 Essence) and all Attributes and Skills he needs maxed, while the Adept might have a Magic of 10 (costing him about 150 karma), but has to pay far more in power points than the SAM does in Essence and he wont have his attributes and skills maxed. He will have pretty good gear, though.

[Crusher Bob]

Shouldn't synaptic-3 alphas be 1.2 essence (1.5*.8=1.2), not 1.8? For an adept, magic 10 might no be worth it, compared to magic 6 and 4 points of high grade 'ware. 6 points of magic will get you combat sense 6, imp ability in your gun skill of chioce 3, with 1.5 points left over for wonky adept only powers. The 4 points of ware is probably enoguh to max your REA and AGL which are the important stats easily effected by ware.

[Serbitar]

[NightmareX]

[toturi]

[NightmareX]

[ElFenrir]

Im on the boat that says Adepts in other areas wipe the floor with mundanes(Social, Brain), but can get a little outclassed in combat....but at the same time, should they specialize, its dangerous.

Case in point, a gunslinger adept. They can indeed get scary. However, as you can see in the BBB, the gunslinger adept isnt doing much else except shooting really good; a mundane sammy can shoot really good and also be a fair backup something or other.(with that extra 40-65 BP they save from Magic, thats a couple of high skills there.)

I am one that can agree with someone mentioning them seemingly changing the focal point for adepts. While you can make an excellent highly specialized combat adept, they are at their most impressive when used for the Social or Brain departments.

I WOULD like to see lowered attribute powers(or at least houserule them), they are too expensive. For the cost of upping one attribute with a power(1 point, or 10 BP for 1 point of magic), the sam could have gone and upped his Agility and Strength numerous times.
This could help out the combat adept. I think .5 for increasing combat skills is reasonable. (if anything i hear people discussing how the social skills are too cheap).

You can still make an impressive unarmed adept(crit strike is cheap, killing hands is cheap and a one shot buy), but again, what keeps them a little under the sam is the price of the attribute increasing powers. (My combat adept threw 11 dice unarmed, but he wasnt TOTALLY combat specialized, it was big, but i wanted him to be good at a few things. More than held his own though.) If i changed anything about him, i would consider dropping a couple powers and increasing his unarmed, and if the adept power was houseruled, his agility.

Again though, i took the focus away from specialist(i made a bouncer, so i wanted a high Perception and Intimidation, which i did get. To be fair, he rolled a total of 13 dice with visual and audio perception with enhancements, and 10 with anything else, so he was rarely taken by surprise..and he threw a pretty impressive 13 dice for physical intimidation...which were both subsequently more than his combat skill, if only by a little.)

I like adepts, i think they are good(great in some areas) but i do think they need a little bit of tweaking.

[Thanee]

[Thain]

Of course, the fact is that a cybered character pays far more in Build Points to get their gear than an Adept.

Consider Improved Reflexes (Power), Wired Reflexes (Cyberware), and Synaptic Booster (Bioware). I pick these three, simply because all things being equal, the `runner who goes first is the one who wins the fight, imho.

[ Spoiler ]

Improved Reflexes I
Essence Cost: No cost, minimum essence 2
Buil Point Cost: 15
Effect: +1 Reaction, +1 I.P.

Improved Reflexes II
Essence Cost: No cost, minimum essence 3
Buil Point Cost: 25
Effect: +2 Reaction, +2 I.P.

Improved Reflexes III
Essence Cost: No cost, minimum essence 5
Buil Point Cost: 45
Effect: +3 Reaction, +3 I.P.

Wired Reflexes I
Essence Cost: 2
Buil Point Cost: 2.2
Effect: +1 Reaction, +1 I.P.

Wired Reflexes II
Essence Cost: 3
Buil Point Cost: 6.4
Effect: +2 Reaction, +2 I.P.

Wired Reflexes III
Essence Cost: 5
Buil Point Cost: 20
Effect: +3 Reaction, +3 I.P.

Synaptic Booster I
Essence Cost: 0.5
Buil Point Cost: 16
Effect: +1 Reaction, +1 I.P.

Synaptic Booster II
Essence Cost: 1
Buil Point Cost: 32
Effect: +2 Reaction, +2 I.P.

Synaptic Booster III
Essence Cost: 1.5
Buil Point Cost: 48
Effect: +3 Reaction, +3 I.P.

Now, tell me how Adepts "suck right now"?

They spend faaar less BP then a Bioware user, and have no Availability limitations. They spend more BP than a Cyberware user, I admit, but all but 5 of those BP are increasing their Magic attribute, which has all sorts of additional benefits.

BP spent on cyber- or bioware has no added effect, apart from the `ware itself. Thus, the true "cost" (ie, BP that can not be used towards other results) of a Adepts power is, in fact, 5 BP... that one spent to take the Adept Quality.

(Of course, if you take more than one Adept Power, you need to divide those 5 BP among all of them; Oh, and an Adept only needs to purchase one Fake License for his entire suite of Powers, a Razorbor (cyber- or bio-) will need to purchase one for each peice of illicit `ware, and cannot get one for any 'F'-class items.)

Adepts are alot more cost efficent than anyone seems to give them credit for.

[lorechaser]

[emo samurai]

The thing is, the bioware costs them 2 magic points, while the other two options cost them 5. Bioware is WAY more efficient than adept powers.

I'd say that improved ability dice cost .25 power points, are limited to skill, and that autohits cost .75 power points and are limited to improved ability dice. Those autohits are, in reality, threshold modifiers, and thresholds can not be moved below 0.

How does that sound for balance?

[Thain]

No. No it isn't.

Bioware Synaptic Booster III costs 48 build points, and 2 magic rating points (1.5 essence lost).

Improved Reflexes III costs 45 build ponts, and their is no loss of magic rating.

Further, the 45 build points (5pt Adept, 40pt for Magic 5) can be used on all manner of other things. Assuming the adept buys only one other power (say, Astral Perception), the actual cost of the Improved Reflexes is 22.5 BP.

The 48 build points spent on the ¥240,000 you need to get Synaptic Booster III has no use after you get the `ware. Magic is an attribute with multiple uses, spent Nuyen is gone.

[Cynic project]

[Kil2k]

I made a Character based on serbitars suggestion [“I give you 150 Karma and 450k (thats a ratio of 1 to 3k) on top of the 400 BP”] I know that this Character would be stronger with a little bit of cyberware and bioware installed (~1,0 Essence worth).
But it looks for me as if this guy is strong enough anyways ...

Race: Troll -40 BP

Body 9 –40 BP
Agility 5 –30 BP [-15 KP]
Reaction 6 (9) –40 BP [-18 KP]
strenght 9 –40 BP
Charisma 1
Intuition 4 –30 BP
Logic 2 –10 BP
Willpower 2 –10 BP

Magic 6 (8) –65 BP [21+24= -45 KP ]
Edge 3 –20 BP
Essence 6,0
Initiative : 13+4w6

Initiation Grade : 2 [(13x0,6=-8 KP )+(16x0,6=-10 KP]
metamagics: Masking, Flexible Signature

Positive Qualities:
Adept –5 BP
Mentor Spirit Bear –5 BP (+2 Dice to resist Physical Damage)
Toughness –10 BP

Negative Qualities:
Uneducated +20 BP
Sensitive System +15 BP

Natural Abilities:
Thermal Vision
+1 Reach
+1 Natural Armor

Skills:
Blades 6 (8) –24 BP
(Axes) –2 BP
Dodge 5 –16 BP [-10 KP]
(Ranged Combat) –2 BP
Athletics Skill Group 3 –30 BP

Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes III 5,0 MP
Berserk 1,0 MP
Attribute Boost Agility 0,25 MP
Attribute Boost Strenght 0,25 MP
Inertia Strike 0,5 MP
Improved Ability (Blades) II 1,0 MP

Gear:
Combat Axe (Weapon Focus Force 8, +2 Reach) [(3+2)x8=-40 KP] -80000 nY
Fake SIN VI -6000 nY
Fake License for being a big bearadept VI -600 nY
Fake License for Combat Axe Weapon Focus VI -600 nY
Fake License for Full Body Armor VI -600 nY
Full Body Armor (10/8) -7150 nY
+Helmet (+2/+2)
+Flare Compensation
+Low-Light Vision
Armor Jacket -900 nY
Contact Lenses 200 nY
+Flare Compensation
+Low-Light Vision

----

Rules used (should be) "RAW". Not every BP, KP and nuyen was spent.

[edit: Fixed a mistake. Changed a little bit.]

[Kyoto Kid]

[toturi]

[Catharz Godfoot]

A street sam with adept powers is an adept. An adept with 'ware is an adept. Assuming there are any benefits at all to being an adept, no matter how small, an adept is more powerful.

The essense loss tries to keep you from having and eating your cake at the same time, but all it actually does is let a min/maxer play the strengths of each system like music.


Now, if you're trying to make a street sam using adept powers and no 'ware, you're setting yourself up for failure (assuming standard rules). That doesn't make adepts weak, it just means that you aren't playing to their strengths. Note that an adept's extra IP are the only ones which aren't legally restricted.

[Thain]