Do adepts suck right now?, Yes, they do. Options

[Kil2k]

I made a Character based on serbitars suggestion [“I give you 150 Karma and 450k (thats a ratio of 1 to 3k) on top of the 400 BP”] I know that this Character would be stronger with a little bit of cyberware and bioware installed (~1,0 Essence worth).
But it looks for me as if this guy is strong enough anyways ...

Race: Troll -40 BP

Body 9 –40 BP
Agility 5 –30 BP [-15 KP]
Reaction 6 (9) –40 BP [-18 KP]
strenght 9 –40 BP
Charisma 1
Intuition 4 –30 BP
Logic 2 –10 BP
Willpower 2 –10 BP

Magic 6 (8) –65 BP [21+24= -45 KP ]
Edge 3 –20 BP
Essence 6,0
Initiative : 13+4w6

Initiation Grade : 2 [(13x0,6=-8 KP )+(16x0,6=-10 KP]
metamagics: Masking, Flexible Signature

Positive Qualities:
Adept –5 BP
Mentor Spirit Bear –5 BP (+2 Dice to resist Physical Damage)
Toughness –10 BP

Negative Qualities:
Uneducated +20 BP
Sensitive System +15 BP

Natural Abilities:
Thermal Vision
+1 Reach
+1 Natural Armor

Skills:
Blades 6 (8) –24 BP
(Axes) –2 BP
Dodge 5 –16 BP [-10 KP]
(Ranged Combat) –2 BP
Athletics Skill Group 3 –30 BP

Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes III 5,0 MP
Berserk 1,0 MP
Attribute Boost Agility 0,25 MP
Attribute Boost Strenght 0,25 MP
Inertia Strike 0,5 MP
Improved Ability (Blades) II 1,0 MP

Gear:
Combat Axe (Weapon Focus Force 8, +2 Reach) [(3+2)x8=-40 KP] -80000 nY
Fake SIN VI -6000 nY
Fake License for being a big bearadept VI -600 nY
Fake License for Combat Axe Weapon Focus VI -600 nY
Fake License for Full Body Armor VI -600 nY
Full Body Armor (10/8) -7150 nY
+Helmet (+2/+2)
+Flare Compensation
+Low-Light Vision
Armor Jacket -900 nY
Contact Lenses 200 nY
+Flare Compensation
+Low-Light Vision

----

Rules used (should be) "RAW". Not every BP, KP and nuyen was spent.

[edit: Fixed a mistake. Changed a little bit.]

[Kyoto Kid]

[toturi]

[Catharz Godfoot]

A street sam with adept powers is an adept. An adept with 'ware is an adept. Assuming there are any benefits at all to being an adept, no matter how small, an adept is more powerful.

The essense loss tries to keep you from having and eating your cake at the same time, but all it actually does is let a min/maxer play the strengths of each system like music.


Now, if you're trying to make a street sam using adept powers and no 'ware, you're setting yourself up for failure (assuming standard rules). That doesn't make adepts weak, it just means that you aren't playing to their strengths. Note that an adept's extra IP are the only ones which aren't legally restricted.

[Thain]

[JonathanC]

[toturi]

My friend, a adept with 333 Karma in SR3, wrecked everybody(including the shaman and the mage).

[emo samurai]

333 Karma, that's totally worth it. :P

[Kyoto Kid]

...I look at it this way.

Using another game system for the analogy (uh oh, I sense a loose rail in the track ahead).

Basically a Physical Adept is much like the Monk in D&D while the Street Sam is the Fighter.

A monk is not intended to be a party's first line of offense. She still is a capable fighter, but one who needs to rely on wits and more subtle means to defeat a foe. She is also able to fight creatures normal weapons cannot touch (much like the Adept with Killing Hands).

On the other hand, the fighter is generally is good at one thing, dishing out damage by the boatloads usually in one attack. He is physically tougher and has a wider array of weapons at his disposal. His answer to defeating any foe is basically total brute force which can even at times overcome certain creatures' natural damage resistance (like the Troll Sammie with the Ranger X Bow).

The place where this comparison breaks down is that in D&D, mundanes can wield magical weapons while in SR you need to be awakened.

Both the fighter and Monk have their specific roles in an adventuring party. Both also have their own important contributions.

In SR the same holds true for Adepts and Street Sams. Both character types have their strong and their weak points and both have their place on a runner team. Yes, A street Sammie can kick serious booty right out of the box and yes an Adept can advance themselves farther in some areas than a mundane (I feel I've been in a discussion like this before, concerning Hackers & Technomancers).

It's not whether an Adept "sucks" or is inferior to a Street Sam, for the two character types are not intended to be parallels of one other. Just as the monk is not some "mystical powered" combatant version of the fighter.

...Think I'll go home and figure out what to do with KK4.3's karma that she hasn't applied yet.

[Serbitar]

[Protector152]

bob, your right, i did make a bunch of mistakes on the char i posted but not 'caus it was a starting char. i stuffed up 'caus i fergot that Initiation dose not automaticly increase magic. so the adept i posted used an addetional 171 karma. however i DO know that a weapon focus dose not increase magic. the char was made using the 400 BP 150 Karma 450 Nuyen. also becaus i got to play with Karma i figured it was not a starting char and so i did not impose the limmetations. oh and by the imp ability power entry in the core book says this 'You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating.' so it DOSE give me +6 dice for dodge

[Ophis]

Check the Errata on srrpg.com as the whole imp ability has been jumped on greatly.

[Kesslan]

Indeed what this means is the most you can buy a skil up is 3 points. (5 if you round up the .5 on a 7 point skill)

This means you can no longer whip out 12 dice as an adept on a raiting 6 skill test before other modifiers.

[Kil2k]

I made a StreetSam to compare my Adept from above with him. Same Rules used, hopefully no mistakes made.

Race: Ork –20 BP

Body 9 (10) (-40 BP) [-27 KP]
Agility 6 (9) (-40 BP) [-18 KP]
Reaction 6 (9) (-40 BP) [-18 KP]
Strenght 5 (6 ) (-20 BP)
Charisma 1
Intuition 5 (-40 BP)
Logic 2 (-10 BP)
Willpower 3 (-10 BP) [-9 KP]

Edge: 3 (-20 BP)
Essence: 1,685
Initiative: 14 + 4W6

Positive Qualities:
Aptitude: Firearms (–10 BP)
Quick Healer (–10 BP)

Negative Qualities:
Uncouth (+20 BP)

Skills:
Longarms 7 (–20 BP) [-40 KP]
(Sniper Rifles) (–2 BP)
Automatics 6 (–20 BP) [-12 KP]
(Machine Pistols) (-2 BP)
Dodge 4 (–16 BP)
(Ranged Combat) (–2 BP)
Perception 3 (-12 BP)
(Visual) (-2 BP)
Blades 3 [-14 KP]
(Cyber Implant Blades) [-2 KP]
Etiquette (2)
Climbing (2)
Running (3)
Gymnastics (3)

Start Gear ~ (-45 BP)

Bioware:
Muscle Toner II (Alphaware) 32000 Nuyen -0,32 Essence
Platelet Factories (Alphaware) 50000 Nuyen -0,16 Essence
Bone Density Augmentation I (Alphaware) –0,24 Essence 40000 Nuyen
Bioware bought “in play”:
Synaptic Booster III –1,5 Essence 240000 Nuyen
Pain Editor –0,3 Essence 40000 Nuyen
Reflex Recorder: Firearms –0,2 Essence 25000 Nuyen
Suprathyroid Gland –0,7 Essence 45000 Nuyen

Cyberware :
Datajack (Alphaware) –0,04 Essence 1000 Nuyen
Cybereyes III (Alphaware) –0,16 Essence 2000 Nuyen
+Low-Light Vision 2000 Nuyen
+Thermographic Vision 2000 Nuyen
+Vision Enhancement II 6000 Nuyen
+Vision Magnification 2000 Nuyen
+Flare Compensation 1500 Nuyen
+Smartlink 2000 Nuyen
Cyberware bought “in Play”:
Spur (Betaware) (0,3x0,7/2) = -0,105 Essence 7200 Nuyen
Skillwires V (Betaware) (0,7x1,0/2) = -0,35 Essence 40000 Nuyen
+Activesoft Running III 9000 Nuyen
+Activesoft Gymnastics III 9000 Nuyen
+Activesoft Climbing II 6000 Nuyen
+Activesoft Etiquette II 6000 Nuyen

---

Again there are still KP, BP and Nuyen left. For flare things and stuff.
Magic healing suffers -3 Dice, First Aid -1 Dice (Thanks to Quick Healer Perk).


[edit: fixed a mistake, and another one thx@Thain]

[Thain]

333 Karma, and ¥1,000,000? You are all kidding me, right?

Thats over 100 `runs, assuming you net ~3-5 karma and ¥3,000 (before expenses) per.

How do you propose to survive that long, if you aren't getting any wiz-bang tech untilyou've saved up your million?

[Serbitar]

All I am saying that even THEN an adept is inferior to a SAM. This "potential" always talked about kicks in only after even more points of karma and can thus be neglected in normal play.

@kil2k

thanks for the nice example. Shows how good a SAM can get (especially compared to the troll). What are the numbers in parenthesis behind the skills?

[Thain]

An Adept is not inferior to a Samurai (Please, stop using all capital letters, 'sam' is shorthand, not an acronym. :wobble: ) the Adept is merely "different."

One could claim the Face, the Rigger, or the Hacker are "inferior" to the Samurai, because they do not have 10+ combat skill dice, an initiative of 42, and 100 boxes on their damage track... (Yes, I am making up numbers here ;) ) But, by that same measure, the Samurai is horrible at cracking, can't control twenty Doberman drones, and has 0 dice for social skills! Samurai are inferior!

Physical Adept =/= Samurai

(Oh, and Kil2k... Skillwire Activesofts do not 'stack' with 'real' skills, so your Automatics IV skillsoft does not add to your skill.)

[Serbitar]

I know what SAM stands for and I like it to write them that way.

Furthermore I know that Adepts are not SAMs. Riggers and hackers have their place, they excel in different tasks. Adepts dont. They have to compete in their area of profession directly with SAMs and lose to them in almost every aspect (social being an exception, but we all know that the social adept is overpowered due to the broken kinesics, that is like a non capped tailored pheromones).

This is because the powers that are comparable to cyber/bioware are extremely underpowered and because the powers that set them apart from SAMs (for example the wall running, jumping, falling stuff) are extremely weak.

Lets face it: Things like wall running are mostly style. And if I chose to pick this power up, I want something for it. At the moment you get nothing for it (Even a running 6 magic 6 adept can wall run an average of 4 meters, wohoo).

Magicians can fly! by only learning one spell. Why does an adept have to pay so much for wall running, falling, leaping that does not even get close to flying?

At least let them do some impressive tricks!

[Thain]

We do not "all know that the social adept is overpowered" as a result of powers such as "broken kinesics." The social-focus Adept is a very good example of the Adept's strength.

Adepts can become very skilled, very cheaply. Improved Skills, Boosted Attributes, situational bonuses...

The problem you have, in my opinion, is that you are trying to make the Physical Adept play the same role, by the same tactics, with the same tools, as the Samurai.
They are not the same, this is a "feature" not a "bug."

[Xenith]

[Kil2k]

[Xenith]

Improved ABILITY (thrown weapons). 4.0 Magic. :P

He's currently in the process of getting Quick Draw though.

It gets even more scary when he starts dual wielding the throwing knives.... :eek:

[Kyrn]

Ummm...why? Why and how does it get more "scary" when he starts dual-wielding throwing knives? How is it any more scary than a punk tossing out a wide burst with Ex ammo from an Ares Alpha? Or a minimal bio face adept with some skill unloading his Cherry Blossom Fire Storm in your face?

<edit> I totally and completely fail to see the fascination with throwing knives. The only explantation I can come up with is the knife dude from Desperado, but guns generally trump knives in the 21st and a half century. Melee's only so effective because of the special mechanics and advantages built in to make melee cool. Which it may deserve. </edit>

[Xenith]

Heres the math. Lets assume he does an average of 9P (7 base, +1 for missile mastery, +1 for the bonus from throwing knives). If thats not enough to convince, then his dice pool with throwing knives is about 11. While 5 dice pool doesn't need to sound like much, it just has to hit with just one success. EACH time he throws it, he reduces your ability to dodge, leaving you open to other attacks. After the end of it, if you aren't dead, you have at least a -4 to reaction for resisting attacks for that round. He gets another pass with 11 dice twice. Do you survive that? Likely not.

[Serbitar]