How powerful ARE immortal elves? Options

[mfb]

[ShadowDragon8685]

[Athanatos]

I remember seeing somewhere that IE's gain certain Draconic/Great Dragon Abilities after a certain amount of time, but I can't remember where. It was an EarthDawn Site/book.

IE Regeneration and the like. They weren't generic DragonKin. More like originally being similar to drakes in that they were magically created in addition to breeding.

[Therumancer]

Immortal Elves are the recipient of what many people have taken to calling "The Divis Mal Complex". While Mal was not the first example of a character specifically created to be "more powerful than you" (whoever you are) he stuck in a lot of gamers minds (at least locally) and seems to epitomize the trend despite several attempts in the Aeonverse to justify/explain him. :)

At any rate, The Immortal Elves, most notably "Harlequin" were created as a metaplot element to try and introduce an evil supernatural enemy that could be faced aside from the corps (for those who wished such a thing), tie the game to Earthdawn, and otherwise make it more interesting to read.

The concept of Immortal Elves was never really developed in Shadowrun, although more might have been said in Earthdawn. My understanding is that Elves are basically immune to aging on their own, as there are a few who are quite ancient despite not having been around as long as the ones who remember the age of Earthdawn. The so-called "Spike Babies".

I mostly got the impression that their "immortality" was a plot device put into the game for those rare GMs who wanted to play directly with the metaplot elements and were inevitably going to deal with the very powerful, wiseguy player who decides he wants to take Harlequin out (for whatever reason). It's "writers fiat" as much as anything.

Conceptually the truely ancient elves seem to be that... ancient elves. They are powerful because they have had so long to develop magic.

I personally wouldn't treat them (at this point) as being any differant from anyone else, except for having much higher stats/abillities due to thousands of years of practice and a greater depth of lore to draw upon (having been around when magic was common and developned) than most mages in the new world who have had access to magic for less than a century.

Their more esoteric abillities being something which (conceptually) could be achieved with enough time and practice, but which go beyond the purview of the game.

Honestly with the changes to the game, the style of writing, and other things, I kind of figure Immortal Elves have kind of outlived their usefulness. They are a throwback to another company, and a differant design team with differant priorities.

I have nothing against the idea, I just am not sure how this could be "picked up" very well especially seeing as a lot of the ideas between 3E and 4E are very differant. Some things (like Varient Metatypes) don't seem to translate very well at all, and that is one of them.

>>>----Therumancer--->

[Kagetenshi]

[Therumancer]

To my knowledge the original adventure "Harlequin" was released a while after the first printing of "Shadowrun" and at that point "Earthdawn" was a work in progress. "Shadowrun" had a degree of hype and was relatively popular as far as RPGs went and as such the idea was that tying Earthdawn into the setting would hopefully increase the popularity/interested in Earthdawn.

I do not think Harlequin or the IEs were conceived as part of the initial setting. I simply believe it was an idea that captured the imagination of gamers, especially seeing as Eartdawn did become popular for a while, and thus the metaplot was expanded.

Ultimatly the idea of Shadowrun was basically to blend Magic and Cyberpunk and cast the player characters as elite "invisible" mercenaries who would take jobs for corperate sponsors against their enemies.

Shadowrun (especially now) is also flexible enough where you could also run alternative campaigns, say setting the PCs up as some kind of special unit (like the special unit in "Ghost In The Shell", or the convicts in "Cyber City Oedo") for the authorities to fight crime, agents of the (increasingly fragile) goverment, or even perhaps as monster/evil hunters working for some kind of philanthropist interested in making life more difficult for "monsters" and better for "people" even when doing so is not profitable.

The lack of IEs would have little real impact on any of these things. Indeed I seem to remember that some key concepts like "The Dark Ones" or even "Winternight" were listed as hypothetical things GMs might use in the original "Threats" before they were officially written into many of the
supplements.

At any rate, without Earthdawn as a tie in the IEs lose a bit of their "oomph" and the way the game is developing it doesn't seem focused on those plotlines. I mean spellsingers aside, after 20 years noone is even aware of these dark ones or any elder horrors lurking beyond (although Winternight was 'outed', it's mentioned as a result Germanic-themed magic traditions seem to be having some rough moments).

Opinions vary, for most games I'd gloss over the IE bits right now. As far as statting them out, if need be, I'd just make them very powerful elven mages. Maybe if we actually see a new "Earthdawn" and the tie ins continue it might become prudent to resume some of that.

That's just my opinions, everyone should feel free to do whatever they want for their own games of course.

>>>----Therumancer--->

[mfb]

mysterious carryovers from the Time Before have been with SR since the beginning. that theme may not have been concretely defined as immortal elves and dragons until later, but that doesn't mean that the seeds had not been planted at the inception of the setting. getting rid of immortal elves and the like would have a huge impact even on games not directly related to that part of the material, for the simple reason that it would remove a huge chunk of the basic setting. you'd be left with questions like why Tir Tairngire (and Tir na nOg, for that matter) even exists, not to mention where the heck its name came from. this would impact any game you choose to run, because it would directly impact the characters in your game (both PC and NPC) and their motivations.

no, it would not stop you from playing a cyberpunk game that includes magic. but at that point, why not just play d20 Modern/Future or Cthulupunk?

[Athanatos]

:D d20 is the Devil!!!! lol j/k But still a pain in the ass. Personally I like the fact that Games like ShadowRun, Mage, and etc. tend to have a more realistic look, atleast as it pertains to damage. I never really liked the "I have 500 hp go ahead and hit me with your little dagger!" Atleast give someone a chance to get a single, fatal blow with a sharp, pointy item lol. And not in the "I'm a lvl 1 mage", sort of way.

Back to the topic.

I kind of liked the idea of immortal figures from the past, one would figure that atleast a few mighty mage types would figure out immortality. I mean there are several ways to get it in game lol. The EarthDawn books basically tell you were most Immortal Elves came from(as in original bloodlines), but I also liked an idea that I had.

My idea was that since they can only tentatively put the lifespan of elves at several centuries, the limited lifespan could all be just a cover story. I know that If I was immortal I'd certainly try to cover it up, if only to avoid the "Experimentations" that most corps would use to attempt to "unlock the secrets of immortality". I'd be like, "Of course I only live 300 years or so, if you don't believe me come look me up in a few centuries, human!" As long as you avoid the J. Smith the 35th naming system, and certainly change dress, mannerism and residences, you're likely to be able to pull it off for quite some time.

I know that they've pretty much used that idea in basically any type of immortal fiction lol. (Highlander!!!!) The low "known" population of IE's could be explained in the likely number of accidents, murders, suicides(you know it has to be extremely bleak after awhile, just look at Harlequin's Drinking problems lol), and possibly the "Departed for a distant metaplane." Not to mention the number likely to be in hiding(you just know that most people would despise those uppity, arrogant, and treacherous Immortals).

Atleast the Dragons/Great Dragons are pretty obviously damned scarey, All most people would see when looking at an IE is a pretty conceited Elf! ;) There's already enough Elf Bashing going on, lol, without adding in the fact that dying of extreme old age won't eventually rid the world of the problem of your existence!

And as for the "how powerful" question, I have a very good response....

"Survival of the fittest!" "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!" And the general "Geek the mage/Mash the Kebler, first!"

Add in the facts; That you're most likely to be around for a very long time. Are an arrogant power seeking bastard who sees yourself/your race to be the pinnacle of creation. And you generally manage to pissoff most other powerful beings, and you're very likely to rather sponge on the power lol. And that's not even including those that actually love magic and seek "pure Enlightenment." The span of several millennia is a very long time for even a, relatively, lazy and lackwitted elf to gain some skillage. :D

[Serial_Peacemake...]

I always play it that the Immortal Elves aren't actually as powerful as they think they are. Reminds me, I have to drop twenty five impaled elven bodies being found around Seattle into my next run.

[nathanross]

Why all the elf hate? What did we ever do to you? :(

Its not my fault god created us better, or that orcs only live 40 years.

Everyone always picks on the elf, just waiting for the dark elves and ultimate spell casting Wakiyambi, show what's what! :smokin:

[hyzmarca]

Well, there is not as powerful as they think they are and then there is having the ability to alter the basic fundamental metaphysical nature of a thing.

If Alachia came to the conclusion that it rains too often in Seattle then she could ReName it into something far more dry.

This doesn't save her from toilet-paper lined with cutter nanites and DMSO, of course, which is why I'm pretty sure that she has a custom spell to take care of that for her.

[nathanross]

I think you misunderstand, the IEs are on their own, what I mean is normal elves, whats so wrong about elves that everyone has to beat on them, that's what dwarves are for. :D

[Kagetenshi]

I think what saves her from toilet paper lined with cutter nanites and DMSO is the ordinary metahuman reaction to soggy toilet paper.

~J

[Gerzel]

[SirBedevere]

When I use IEs they are as powerful as necessary. I know that's a bit of a cop out, but I handle them basically by GM fiat. IMO they are there as plot devices for the GM to use and abuse.

[MITJA3000+]

I have never used IE's in my games, but they certainly are interesting figures, especially psychologically. The way Alachia/Sheila/Jenna Ni'Fairra/Miss Tick, and Nadja Daviar/Claudia Romanov also, display almost schizophrenic personalities makes them far more interesting than the mighty dragons. I'm kinda sad to see the backs of Laughing Man and Wordsmyth as shadowposters, but at the same time they did always feel like the authors pasted their comments to the conversations in the end, like that bit in Cyberpirates.

[Kyoto Kid]

[fistandantilus4....]

[MITJA3000+]