 Stupid Question, Again on agents |
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 Feb 6 2007, 10:25 AM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
In a recent thread this was interpreted as "An independent agent can only interact with a node when it was uploaded to it first." Now the question: How can an independent agent ever hack into a node, when it has to be uploaded to the node first to interact with it? Not as obvious: How can an independent agent ever log onto a node (legally), when it has to be uploaded to the node first to interact with it? (Apart from that there is no reason why an agent shouldnt be able to access other nodes like any other program does, but has to upload itself to the node to do so.) Conclusion: This phrase obviously only means, that the agent acting independently has to run on a node, not on a persona and can access any nodes it wants, just like a normal persona from there. This node can also be a commlink. Comments? |
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 Feb 6 2007, 11:17 AM
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#2
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,353 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
<jedi mind trick>There are no Agents.</jedi mind trick>
Bye Thanee |
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Feb 6 2007, 12:42 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Apparently the Agent must be uploaded on node A by a user for it to be able to move further to B and C.
Since Commlink is also a node it means that an Agent can be uploaded on the commlink and then move from there. Damn, back to square one. Since everythign is a node these days it stands to reason it has to be uploaded. What they are actually saying is that an agent cannot be run from the memory stick you just bought with Agent Orange V2.0 - you have to upload Agent Orange to your commlink (node). WHY do they have that phrasing? *confused* Bleah! |
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Feb 6 2007, 12:47 PM
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#4
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Perhaps it's just there to show that agents opperate differently then personas? A persona runs on the user's commlink and that commlink then logs on to different nodes. An agent instead uploads to nodes and runs from there, sort of like a virus might today. No reason to reflect this in the rules other then that agents change attributes depending on the node, while personas don't.
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Feb 6 2007, 01:15 PM
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#5
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I agree with your conclusion, Serbitar. I've always read it as an agent is just a program that is able to use other programs.
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Feb 6 2007, 02:17 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
If you want your agent to operate in the Matrix indepenently, you must load it on a particular node seperate from your commlink. The Agent's abilities are limited by the Node that is is on.
Agents are not Hackers, and they don't get to hack the Matrix from the safety of their commlink. |
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Feb 6 2007, 02:30 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
If you think that works, then please answer my questions. |
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Feb 6 2007, 02:30 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Please answer the questions then. |
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Feb 6 2007, 04:49 PM
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#9
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I think they have been, Agents can upload themselves from Node to Node, and they are limited by the Responce of the Node they are on.
What they can't do is stay on your (rating 6) Commlink and smash the puny IC stuck in a (rating 2) Node somewhere. They first have to upload into that same Node and thus are also reduced to (rating 2). As for logging on legally, well its simple, they simply ask for permission to transfer themselves like any other data transfer. Hacking, well personally I'd allow them to Hack into a Node B using the stats of Node A, but once in, they use the stats of Node B. |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:23 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
There are two ways to use agents :
1) You run them on your commlink, just like a regular program. They are linked to your persona and follow your persona wherever it goes. 2) You load them somewhere (on your commlink or on any node you have agent-loading access to) and you let them roam the Matrix on their own, loading themselves from node to node. To do so, they need either to have access to the node they want to go to or to hack their way inside. That's how I've always considered it. |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:25 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
So they can ask for login, even hack into the node and initiate a file transfer to the host (upload of the agent), but can not ask not for a piece of data (browsing) or open a file on the node? |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:26 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Please answer the questions. |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:40 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
The agent has been uploaded on node A by its owner. It wants to access node B. It sends a log-on request to node B. If node B accepts, it "sends" itself to that node. If node B refuses (or asks for some kind of identification), it can use some hacking utilities to disguise himself as a legitimate traffic or to crack the identification. You know it's the same for the hacker : how can he access a node to hack it if he doesn't even have a user account on it ? Or maybe there's some kind of "guest" account that only allow login actions... |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:52 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
If the agent can communicate with the node to hack in, why cant it communicate to use all the other programs? Its just traffic between the nodes.
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Feb 6 2007, 05:52 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
I did answer your questions, albeit indirectly, you are commiting a fallacy Serbitar. The Agent must be loaded onto a Node, not nessicarily onto the Node it is attempting to access.
How can independent agent ever hack into a node, when it has to be uploaded to the node first to interact with it? The Agent is loaded onto Node X, it wants to hack into Node Z. The Agent rolls hacking+exploit as normal, but is capped by the abilities of Node X. Once it is on Node Z, it is capped by the abilities of Node Z. This means, in effect, that Agents are going to be far worse at independent hackign than an actual Hacker. This is a feature, not a bug. How can an independent agent ever log onto a node (legally), when it has to be uploaded to the node first to interact with it? An independent agent gets legal access to Node Z by either being directly uploaded to it (legally) by its programmer (this is how IC gets onto a node) or by legally accessing it from Node X. For example, if you just want your agent to browse the iTunes 2070 node - like a typical shopper, you tell it to go there from its current node... it sends a logon request, and click, its in. You just need to accept the fact that Agents are software, they are not AI's, they are not Hackers, and they are restricted. |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:53 PM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yeah, of course an Agent can access nodes other than the one it is on. A Hacker is running their persona on their Commlink and can access other nodes to hack. An Agent is running on some other Commlink and can access other nodes to hack.
Seriously, I don't even know why this is up for debate. Since the vast majority of programs only do anything by accessing other nodes, an Agent wouldn't be able to do anything if it couldn't do that. Programs like Exploit, Scan, Trace, and Browse all involve you being on one node and accessing perhaps hundreds of other nodes from there. That Agents can use them at all is proof that they don't need to be uploaded onto Node B to affect Node B. They can jolly well sit on Node A and access Node B just like a Hacker can. You don't use up the maximum programs running on a node by attacking that node with your programs, if you did Hackers and Agents couldn't fight at all. -Frank |
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Feb 6 2007, 05:55 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well aparently the majority of people out there believes that independent agents can only affect nodes they are running on.
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Feb 6 2007, 05:59 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Because an Agent is, basically, a computer virus. A virus can try to get onto my computer without ever getting installed, but it will have no effect until it is installed. Do you think a Hacker can use his programs without gaining access to the node? No. That's not how it works. Think of the nodes as physical places that you need to "walk into." A passerby on the street can knock on my door, try the knob, or even smash the window... But they can't go through my file cabinent until they are inside. They can't flip the light switch. They can't raid the fridge. Gaining access to the node is the same. You can do it the legal way (knock, knock) or you can hack your way in (smash the window). The difference between a hacker and an agent is that the hacker can bring his "super powers" (hacking programs and deck ratings) with him, but an agent is limited to the "power level" of the node. It's not signal traffic, it's foot traffic, and the entire Matrix model is based on that idea. |
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Feb 6 2007, 06:01 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Since they are supposed to act as Searchbots, that's the dumbest fucking thig I've ever heard. It literally says that zero times in the BBB, and Agents wouldn't be able to do the very thing that they are supposed todo if that was the case. -Frank |
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Feb 6 2007, 06:03 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The ignorance of this post is collosal. Acessing a node != running on a node |
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Feb 6 2007, 06:08 PM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, exactly--accessing a node != running on a node. show in the BBB where it says agents have to be running on a node to access it.
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Feb 6 2007, 06:09 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Mostly because SR Matrix is totally different from today's computer systems on that aspect: your persona has to be present in a node to affect it. You can't Attack a hacker in a remote node from your commlink. You can't Edit a file in a remote node from your commlink. Your persona has to be there (even if your programs run on your commlinks). It's true that nothing clearly states if the agent can "run" on a node and have its icon on another node (just like a hacker runs his program on his commlink and has its persona on another node) or if it can only be present on the node it's running. I'd go for the second hypothesis, but it's a question that should be asked to the devs. |
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Feb 6 2007, 06:27 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Granted. But you are "present" if you are accessing a node. Your programs are limited by the response of the node you are running on. Those are very different things. The node I'm running on is my commlink. It is coordinating my programs and getting my processes running. A copy of my icon appears on a node I'm acessing, and I can use my programs against it, but that doesn't mean that my persona or any of my programs are running on that node.
That's bullshit. Your persona has to be there, but it doesn't have to be from there. You can very much attack a hacker in a node remote from your commlink. If I'm running on Node A, I can access Node B. The programs that I'm running on Node A don't add to slowdown on Node B, and aren't limited in Rating by whatever Node B is all about. Now another Hacker can be running on Node C and also access Node B. Neither one of us are using up the program slots of B, but since we both have copies of our icon in Node B we can attack each other. -Frank |
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Feb 6 2007, 06:30 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As the rules for the SR4 matrix miss any description of 'connection', you can't even describe a phone call. |
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Feb 6 2007, 07:00 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Read my inital post. I am not of this opinion. But others are. This Thread is to convince them otherwise. |
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