 Stupid Question, Again on agents |
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 Feb 7 2007, 01:36 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510  |
Agreed... sort of. Regardless of whether or not there's a good reason, in RAW there are certain rules on what a persona is capable of doing and agents are not personas. There are rules that govern what an agent can and cannot do, and because an agent is not a persona, there's no contradiction between the agent's activities and the persona's. The contradiction comes when it says that an agent can access other nodes independantly if they have the proper passcodes or Exploit program. We know that an agent acting independantly must move node to node because there are rules covering this specific case. If an agent is not acting independantly, it must be loaded into your persona. As the persona moves, the agent moves, and its Response varies. If you wish an agent to act independently, you must load it onto a particular node (not just any node!) from your persona (which is in the node at the time). The agent will continue to operate in the Matrix even if your persona goes offline. (Sr4,p228) The agent is just an independant icon loaded into the node. Its attributes are affected by the node it is loaded onto. At no point here does it say that the agent gets a persona or can move once they've been loaded into the particular node. In fact, since they aren't a persona, they can't move, right? So if that were true, how does this work with "Agents can also access other nodes independantly if instructed to and if they either have the passcodes or are carrying an Exploit program and can hack their own way in (as independant icons)." (Sr4, p.227) There's the contradiction. Regardless of how you interpret/resolve this contradiction, I disagree with Serbitar's idea that the agent is still loaded back into your comlink's node while it's going about tampering in other people's nodes. That clearly is not supported by RAW. But the rules that support RAW do contradict eachother. In my interpretation of these events: 1) An agent doesn't have to be able to interact with a node to hack into it. (Huh? Yeah, I know. But that's what the rules say as far as I can tell. I guess the firewall was supposed to be the door and the hacking agent isn't really in yet.) 2) The Agent must hack into the node with its Exploit program, and then load itself onto the note it is accessing. There's another thing being regarded as a contradiction but is more of a "flaw": If a remote node that is being hacked has a persona uploaded, does that node now running it have less programs that it can run due to its System limit? I'd have to say no. Becuase the remote node doesn't actually terminate or execute the agent program. I think this was just mis-handled by the writers because it was never an issue for them. Security systems don't have a limit to how many programs (agents) they can run so it was never a big deal for them. But it's not really a contradiction. This happens with modern viruses, too - you're CPU usage skyrockets and the user has no idea why. |
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Feb 7 2007, 02:23 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861 |
Here's the way I see it. You load your agent into node X. Let's say node X is a basic directory node. You give it instructions to hack into node Y, the node for the local branch of Lone Star, and once it is there, to search for a certain name, and once it is found, to delete any files associated with it. Then you get out of dodge. Your agent begins hacking a way into node Y. It's not in node Y yet, it's just making a passageway to node Y. If successful, it moves into node Y, where it can begin its search action. It gets attacked by IC, and defends itself to the best of it's abilities (not very good, but in this case, adequate.) Then it completes the search, finds five files, and uses it's Edit program to delete them. I don't see any reason, in the Raw, why the agent should be immobilized just because it lacks a persona. |
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Feb 7 2007, 03:26 AM
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#53
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Here's the thing though: That section of yours that I bolded is not actually stated in the rules. The rules say that an independently operating Agent has to be running on a node other than your commlink. The rules say that an Agent is limitted to the stats of the node it is running on. The rules say that an Agent can access other nodes. The rules say that an Agent can "move" from node to node by uploading itself and then running on the new node. --- And none of that says that an Agent can't use its ability to access a node other than the node it is running on to perform operations on that node. It's not even implied. Ever. -Frank |
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Feb 7 2007, 04:25 AM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Ok then, if no one but me wants the official answer about that issue, I'll e-mail the devs.
Anyway, the debate can't really take place. We only have 2 or 3 RAW sentences to argue with, and these don't state anything about what matters to us. Oh, and by the way, for those who said that we don't have agents today, we do... But I don't think we can compare 2007's agents to 2070. |
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Feb 7 2007, 04:49 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Not interpretation: It never says "a node other than your comlink" either, It says the agent must be loaded either on a node or on a persona. Agents do not have to enter a node to hack it. Agents can independantly hack and enter other nodes. It mentions that if you want an agent to function independantly, it must be loaded onto a particular node. Interpretation: I'm reading a lot into that "on a particular node" as the basis for my interpretation. If it meant "on your comlink's node", I think it would just say that. Actually, I'm not even sure if it would need to say anything on the matter,
Not interpretation: What you are describing is a function of Persona. Only Personas are described as having this ability. The book specifically mentions that agents do not have Personas, but exist as independant icons which can be loaded onto nodes. Interpretation: I believe this was meant to make agents function differently than users and interact differently within the Matrix, probably because the writers were thinking of IC when they wrote the agent rules and wanted IC to be loaded onto their own nodes. Going a step further: Since the Persona is described as your interface between your comlink and "you", it is reasonable to assume anything detached from your Persona is also detached from your comlink. Nothing else (besides a Persona) is ever having been described as providing access to your comlink's programs, storage, resources, etc. |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:03 AM
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#56
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
So yes. It really does actually say a node other than your commlink. --- I'm beginning to think that you haven't actually read the section of RAW that is being discussed here. It's two pages long. All of the information is on pages 227, 228, and 230. Go ahead and red it carefully before you continue to make pronouncements about what it does and does not literally say. -Frank |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:14 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
You don't agree so you ignore everything I said and decide to insult me instead. Very mature. Oh, and since we're arrogantly throwing page numbers at eachother, page 211 is important, too. (pause to take deep breaths) Okay, you interpreted way too much into those two statements you quoted. It never says a node other than your comlink. Sorry. It just doesn't. I deliberately made a distinction between what was said and what I interpreted from the text. If you want your agent to operate in the Matrix independantly, you must load it on a particular node seperate from your persona. Your persona is not your comlink's node. Nothing in the text you quoted describes it as a node. Just because your comlink's stats determine your persona's stats doesn't mean the persona's a node. Big difference between personas and nodes. HUGE. Persona's can't be hacked. Persona's can't be entered. Personas can enter and leave nodes and nodes can't. The Persona provides an interface so that you can use all of your programs and your node exists whether you are using the actively using the Matrix or not. A persona only exists while you are accessing the Matrix.. How do you even come to this conclusion that your persona is a node? Theoretically, you could have an agent running on your comlink's node plugging away at numbers, running Analyze all day. It wouldn't be able to Analyze stuff on other nodes, just what is on the node it is loaded on. We might theoreticaly want to call this program "IC". And it will stay on that comlink's node despite whether your persona is active or not, despite where it is in the Matrix until you decide to either shut down and unload the agent or load it into your persona instead. |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:20 AM
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#58
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Your Persona runs on your commlink (unless you're running through a terminal or a coffee machine). If you want your Agent to operate independently, it has to run on a different node from your Persona. And that different node would be... not your commlink. By definition.
Sure. But then it wouldn't be operating independently. Hence the original statement. -Frank |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:23 AM
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#59
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Why would we call this program "IC" when we could call it "Smith"? Hehehe. I bet that'd be a running joke in a good SR4 game. Every hacker and his kid brother's Commlink are running Rating 6 everything Agents that are called "Smith" and styled as a middle-aged, kind-of-red-haired man with a big gun. The really good hackers will back Smith up with Jones and Johnson.... Yeah. I think I just figured out why hacking into hacker's commlinks is a Bad Idea. |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:25 AM
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#60
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
It dosen't matter where Agent Smith starts running, it only matters where he ends up. And is there anything saying he can't operate in the same Node that you are? If not, then I see no problem with the possibility that you load up all the Agents that your commlink can handle and still run yourself, and you all hit the Matrix together, then seperate to do your own jobs. |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:32 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
It never says a different node. It says "If you wish for your agent to operate in the Matrix independantly, you must load it on a particular node seperate from your Persona." Prior to this, your Agent was loaded into your Persona. If you drop it off ina node, it is now seperate from your persona, but in the same node. More importantly, on the particular node you want it to function on. It doesn't matter where that node is or where your Persona is. Your Persona isn't always in your comlink; it moves around.
Wowowow. Back up. You mean we disagree on what it means to run indpendantly?! Okay, we need to settle this or the rest is kind of pointless. If an agent is acting independantly that means that the agent is not loaded onto your persona. That's all it means. It doesn't matter where it is or what its doing or what node its on, or whether or not it is even running off your comlink -- if it is working on any node apart from the interface to a hacker (Persona), it is functioning independantly. It continues to run on its own without the hacker moving it around. (In fact, other than conviniently being able to zip across the Matrix with a hacker, I don't know if there's any advantage to having an agent loaded into your persona. Maybe to protect it against dangerous IC, if it needs protection.) Thus, IC is always running independantly since its usually not loaded into a security hacker's persona. |
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Feb 7 2007, 07:11 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I don't know why everyone keeps assuming that Hackers are going to be the Agent Smith problem. It's not the awesome capabilities of hackers that are the main concern for the game. If agents actually worked in such a way as to create an Agent Smith problem, then there's no reason that some corp like Neonet or Renraku wouldn't have a Hacker Response Network that is nothing but a collection of nodes running 10 or more Black IC programs each. When a system owned by Neonet, a subsidiary, or a paying subscriber sends out a small distress call, the system has 10 IC enter that node and tear apart any hackers or agents in there. Alernatively, it can call another node which sends 10 more. And another with 10 more. If the Agent Smith problem actually exists, the danger isn't hackers against systems. The danger is that any given milllion IC programs on the Matrix can protect every computer connected to the Matrix simultaneously. So who has more Agents, one hacker, or a megacorp? Ultimately, I'm not sure if either one would have more if we assume that copy protection isn't perfect and both sides could have an unlimited supply of copied agents. This can't be allowed. It must be stopped! Or maybe not. If you want this sort of situation to appear in the game, you have to abstract it. Don't have an icon and attributes for each agent, but for each group of agents. In fact your basic Hacking skill could represent how well you coordinate, instruct, and use these agents rather than how well you code into the firewall - it's all just fluff at that point. Either that, or impose limits on the capabilities of agents. Since there is already a distinct difference between agents and AIs in the game, the prescedent for powering down agents is already there. Any real-world equivilent to a "smarter agent" would just be the Shadowrun equivilent of a dumb AI. |
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Feb 7 2007, 07:48 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I'm starting to think that the problem lies in if you think of all or just some aspects of this setting to be fantasy. If it is all fantasy then you don't really need to think about it. You just need to prevent or allow things based on if your PCs figure out something. If you are thinking of the scifi parts of the setting and find those actually thought provoking then there is a good reason to have a basis for the matrix in modern computing.
There is no reason to assume that the basic ideas of computer archtechture haven't been worked out. We have a new idea or two now and then but we haven't gotten the basics down I think. We can figure out the matrix based on projections from futurists and our own understanding or we can cling to the system that was written because we paid good money for it. My point of view, since I almost never share my feelings about things, is that I think that we know enough to come up with a logical matrix based on what we understand and project forward. I think that we can come up with a system that allows for most of the things that the setting needs from the matrix. We can come up with somthing that makes sense for normal users AND for hackers. I think that it can be fairly simple and not slow down game play. And I think that keeping a Tron like VR system where the metaphor is anything but a metaphor is inimicable to these goals. |
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Feb 7 2007, 08:55 AM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Matrix in the cyberpunk genre is born when the Internet was just some kind of military/scientific project... If you read some older cyberpunk novels it's closer to the old French minitel (where you more or less directly dialed the server you wanted to connect to) than to the Internet.
Of course, things have evolved in Shadowrun, but replacing the Matrix with a realistic computer system will have most of the VR aspect drawn away and replaced by command line hacking... You'll lose all the fun and "poetic" (for lack of a better word) aspect of the Matrix to get something as exciting as cracking a keypad. |
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Feb 7 2007, 09:24 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
well I think that the game can be just as fun without that part. I never got into the decking rules before because I thought that the system was overly complicated. I guess that is why I am not all that attatched to the idea.
I have seen and read plenty of stuff in cyberpunk. Not all had a matrix and not all got VR confused so I don't think of it as a necessary part. My favorite cyberpunk novel was "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. It was gritty and dark about how technology was degrading people but the most advanced communications system in there was a cell phone. The problem is that people seem to want to hold on to a very specific set of things as fun and they don't care if doing so takes the fun out if it for others. I think that having a silly VR Cybercombat system is insulting to my intelligence and drives me to distraction. |
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Feb 7 2007, 01:34 PM
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#66
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
You don't like it? Good. Go play d20 Future. Absoloutely noooooo VR hacking. In fact, all of hacking is down to a single roll: 1d20+Computers (skill) + miscelanious bonuses. Decking is the only real reason that brought me to Shadowrun. It's the only thing that Shadowrun has over, say, d20 Future, or d20 Fantasy. |
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Feb 7 2007, 02:35 PM
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#67
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
that is unless you pick up the cyberscape book, where they introduce VR hacking (ita a hardcopy version of some rules that was posted as pdf on the wizards page earlier). but rather then building a fully seperate system they just reuse a lot of the stats and mechanics. basically the turn the vr hacking into a paralell dimention... |
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Feb 7 2007, 02:54 PM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's a completely separate issue. a thread where we're trying to work out the intricacies of agent subscriptions isn't the place to rewrite the entire Matrix section of the book (plus all future Matrix-related books). |
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Feb 7 2007, 03:15 PM
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#69
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Nail meet head. That's the exact way I've always looked at it. Separate from your persona doesn't directly mean separate from your persona on a different node. If I'm in my office and I take my wallet out of my pocket and set it on my desk it is now separate from me, so to speak, but it's still in my office. I can then leave my office, and the wallet stays there. The analogy breaks down when you consider that my wallet can somehow leave my office without me, while it explicitly states that Agents can perform that type of action, but you understand what I'm getting at, I hope. |
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Feb 7 2007, 03:45 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Your wallet doesn't leave your desk? Happens to me all the time. I have to watch it very carefully just to make sure it doesn't wander off on its own... |
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Feb 7 2007, 04:08 PM
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#71
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
That's a motion-tracking paintball gun automatic security system is for.
Or a motion-tracking automatic ranged taser with an automatic rewind reel. That's a much more fragile system, though... :) |
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Feb 7 2007, 04:28 PM
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#72
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Good Points. But SR is NOT Fantasy. I want everything to be at least handwaved. In a Fantasy setting I would not. |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:03 PM
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#73
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Odd statement, that. I'd rather see handwaving in a fantasy setting but would want crunchiness otherwise. Perhaps we're using handwavery in different contexts. Either way, not sure we want to start the genre debate :swirl:
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Feb 7 2007, 05:34 PM
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#74
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Since your Persona is just "everything running on your commlink" it actually does mean that. If an Agent were running on your own node, it would by definition not be separate from your persona. It would crash when you crash, lag when you lag, and be jammed when you were jammed. Since everything running on your node is part of your persona, for something to be separate from your persona it really does have to be running on a different node altogether. -Frank |
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Feb 7 2007, 05:53 PM
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#75
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Not to be a prick, but can you back this one up? I don't see things this way and I'm not convinced (yet) that it's the way the RAW intends things to be seen. |
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