My Assistant
Site Message
(Message will auto close in 2 seconds)
  |
 Stupid Question, Again on agents |
 Feb 7 2007, 06:04 PM
Post
#76
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
can't imagine what else other than your commlink would be disconnected when you crash. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 06:15 PM
Post
#77
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Wrong on just about everything here. I really think you're misinterpreting either what a Persona is supposed to represent or what the node is supposed to represent - I'm not sure which. If an agent were running on your node, it would be different from your persona. There are times when your persona is not active or when your persona has moved to other nodes, but this doesn't affect your comlink's node in anyway. Your comlink's node does not crash when your persona crashes. If your persona is defeated in cybercombat, you immediately are disconnected from the Matrix and your persona is gone until you log back in, but your node is still there. The node can, for example, still be hacked even though you've just been defeated in cybercombat. A persona is a type of icon. Unlike other icons, it has the ability to travel between nodes while its files and such "reside" on its home node. It is not "everything on your comlink" but serves as an interface that allows you to access everything on your comlink, in much the same way that all icons are merely similiar interfaces. It is not "everything on your comlink" but you can load programs from your comlink into the persona to carry around with you and use in the Matrix, on whatever node the persona is located in. It can be compared to a digital representation of "you" walking around through a building. The nodes would be the individual rooms within that building. Big difference. Huge. They are nothing even remotely similiar. Your Persona is not your home node. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 06:18 PM
Post
#78
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
where in the world are you getting that idea? you need to provide quotes for pretty much everything you just said. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 06:19 PM
Post
#79
|
|||||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes I can.
So what does this tell us? It tells us that the programs you use, that is the programs running on your commlink, are your Persona. And that running them may make obvious changes to your icon. It also tells us that the icon is a representation of the physical object that you are using to connect to the matrix with. That's important, because:
So I suppose that it is possible to try to read it that programs you are running are separate from your persona, and thus that when people crash you out of the Matrix that you are disconnected from the Matrix, but your Commlink isn't and all the programs you were running are still churning away with no user input. But that's an incredibly counter-intuitive and stupid reading of those rules and I'm not going to dignify it it as a possibility. -Frank |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Feb 7 2007, 06:20 PM
Post
#80
|
|||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
@mfb: I'm not sure your quote means what you think it means. It says persona icon which to me indicates to me that the icon of your person can be crashed in a node other than your commlink (or within your commlink for that matter) and if (when) that happens, you're disconnected from the Matrix. That rule is to avoid people saying that their icon was crashed in Node X but that they're still connected to Nodes Y and Z. @Cetiah:
I'm not sure I totally agree with that yet. What do you see being the difference between a persona and a persona's icon, then? The quote that mfb posted seems to indicate a difference between the two. @Frank: running to lunch. wife getting angry at delay ( :eek: ). I'll read and respond later! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 06:28 PM
Post
#81
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Hopefully we all agree that agents and hackers should work as similarly as possible for simplicity except when explicitly stated to be different. Otherwise this all goes out the window.
Remember, agents are legitimate bits of application used by power users the world around, not just hackers. Agents don't work if they have to upload themselves to other servers to get anything done. If I want my agent to go do a datasearch for everything on GlobalDynamX there is no freaking way that Google, Yahoo, AltaVista, and GlobalDynamX are going to let my agent load onto their system. Not happening. The section on IC states pretty clearly that IC are agents with special payload. No way anyone is going to let roaving IC load itself to their system. An agent is a potentially autonomous program. It is a virtual machine, emulating a hacker and their comm, complete with its own firewall rating. The agent's rating acts as Persona rating in many cases (see matrix combat sections). The quality of that emulation is based on the amount of processing power available, hence the fact that an Agent uses the Response of the node it is running on. It is potentially autonomous because it can either be loaded as a regular app or, as stated on page 228, it can be independent and be loaded on onto "a particular node separate from your Persona" and operate even when the hacker is offline. The "separate from your Persona" bit does imply it needs to be a node other than your in-use Comm however nothing says this can't be a spare comm that no one is using. Could be a corporate server. Wage slaves use agents to handle tasks while they are busy, which would justify them loading it up to a corporate server. On page 227 it says that "Agents can also access other nodes independently if instructed to and if they either have the passcodes or are carrying an Exploit program and can hack their own way in (as independent icons)." The key word there is "access," a word that sees use with hackers. If you look on P.118 titled "Accessing Multiple Nodes" it says "It’s common practice for Matrix users to connect to more than one node at the same time—this is just a matter of switching between open windows. Th ere is no penalty to switch your attention between accessed nodes, but you can only act in one node at a time (meaning each action only applies to one node)" It even has an example of someone playing a game while doing a data search. Page 232 even states that you can be in matrix combat on different nodes simultaneously. So what I see is that Joe Wage Slave is being slammed, he's got a conference call to be on, some numbers to crunch, a plane to be on and needs to track down some data that the system backup failed to capture. Joe loads his agent onto CorpServer2 and tells it to find the missing data. Joe then hops on his plane and does his conference call while crunching his numbers. The agent, using Joe's passcodes (or possible passcodes assigned specifically to the agent by the corpsec team), accesses dozens of systems throughout the corp, looking for the files. It does NOT bother to migrate from server to server, instead ACCESSING the other systems while residing on CorpServer2, much as a hacker's Persona accesses multiple systems while residing on their personal Comm. Now lets say the agent realizes that this is going to take a long time, in part because CorpServer2 is only an Response 2 system. The agent checks to see if CorpServer5 is available (the passcodes it has give it access to CorpServer5 but only if it isn't busy) and transfers itself there to speed up the work. Here's a shadowrunner example. Hacker Dave is contacted about a meet and given some limited tidbits of information. He wants to know more so he fires up his agent Hal to go do some public data trawling. Dave doesn't like the idea of limiting his active software choices at a meet so he puts Hal on his spare comm and tells Hal to email him the results of the data search. Hal proceeds to make a number of extended data search rolls to compile a basic dossier that is emailed to dave. At the meet Dave is given the passcodes for a user-level account of the target. Dave decides to do a quick data index of the data available to the account. Because time is of the essence (the account is deleted at midnight) Dave loads Hal into his persona when he connects to the server. Dave and Hal both begin trawling the network as quickly as possible for information. At 11:55 Dave figures out where the data he needs is but it needs a security account to access it. He decides to split his forces up. He logs off completely, loads Hal onto the spare Comm with some combat utilities and sends Hal back to the target using the still-valid user-level passcodes. Dave, alone on his comm, begins an On-the-Fly hack of the system. He gets in, but triggers an alert. Dave manages a couple rounds of data theft before the IC finds him and launches its assault. Dave yells for Hal, who begins its own assault. Since Hal was using legit codes, it hadn't been targeted by the IC yet so Hal's attack was a complete ambush. Of course, the system immediately begins to counterattack but the distraction lets dave finish the theft. Hal "sacrifices" itself to let Dave log off. Dave then reaches over and turns off Hal's Comm, breaking the connection. Dave fires up his car and quickly drives away, not knowing how far the traces on Dave and/or Hal got but since both Comms were sitting side by side either one being successful would be bad. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 7 2007, 06:54 PM
Post
#82
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well... that's the obvious design intent of the rules as they appear in the BBB. However, I don't think that many people here are convinced that this is necessarily a good idea. Design criteria of how things should work encompasses three basic concepts:
What the rules as written deliver is a system where an Agent functions pretty much identically to a Hacker. Except of course, that an Agent can be duplicated in whole simply by breaking copy protction and throwing it another piece of hardware to run a second copy on. And another piece of hardware to run a third copy on. And so on. Indeed, the rules fulfill the first criteria perfectly. An Agent runs on pretty much exactly the same rules as a Hacker and the cheese stands alone. Unfortunately the second two design criteria miss the boat entirely. A half-way decent Agent attack involves rolling handfuls of dice dozens of times and the Hacker at the center has a bulge so small over each individual Agent that he is a stastitically minor effect on his overall life. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 07:26 PM
Post
#83
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Nice evaluation. I completely agree with everything here. There's probably a few more criteria other people would throw in such as internal consistency, realism, cinematic imitation (fakery?), player choice, GM control, expandibility, etc. etc., but I think these three are perfect starting points that everyone can agree on. At some point (when we clear some of the current threads), you might want to start a new thread with this post. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 07:29 PM
Post
#84
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,083 |
Actually, letting agents onto their node just may be what Google, Yahoo, AltaVista, and GlobalDynamX are going to do.
For a normal person, their Persona or Agent would access the public areas of Google’s node. Although the RAW calls is the public area, I personally think of it more as logging in with a heavily locked down "Guest" account that has no password. The persona/agent would run the search program that is on the Google node to search Google's private database for information. The persona/agent would then log off Google node and move onto the public area of AltaVista or some other search engine or whatever. All the logons would be legal and the information would be public information that the search sites probably gained by sending out their own agents to the public areas of other nodes to gather data, or by process data that other sites might send to them. My point is that the RAW does leave open the use of Agents for normal people, even if the agents have to log onto a node to access what is on the node. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 7 2007, 07:41 PM
Post
#85
|
|||||||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
@Frank
I'm not with you yet. It says that the programs you use make up your persona. In this context I believe they mean "you" to refer to the legitimate user of a commlink. If an illegitimate user hacks a commlink and runs programs on it, then I don't see that these programs should effect the legitimate user's persona. You stated earlier...
... and I still disagree, no offense intended, and I'm not sure how your quotations above are meant to prove otherwise. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Feb 7 2007, 08:15 PM
Post
#86
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
"There are times when your persona is not active" (A Persona is present when you are using your comlink to access a node. Do you disagree with this?) "or when your persona has moved to other nodes," (Personas are frequently refered to as being able to move from one node to another. With the specific exceptions of Agents and Personas, Icons and Nodes are never described this way.) "but this doesn't affect your comlink's node in anyway." (I can't provide a page number for a negative condition. If you think moving your persona around alters your node or where your node is located, the burden of proof is on you to provide a reference.) "Your comlink's node does not crash when your persona crashes." (Again, a negative condition. The burden of proof is on you to show that your node crashes when a persona crashes.) (We know that when a Persona crashes, you are no longer connected to the Matrix. Frank surmises that this is due to your Comlink losing the Matrix connection and I don't disagree. Nor do I see it as relavent. Even when your persona is crashed and you are not connected to a Matrix, your comlink's node can still be hacked by any wireless signal in range. Your node has not crashed.) "If your persona is defeated in cybercombat, you immediately are disconnected from the Matrix and your persona is gone" (Your persona is crashed and you are disconnected from the Matrix. This is not in dispute.) "until you log back in," Under Terminate Connection on page 223, it says that a hacker whose connection is terminated can attempt to simply log back in. " but your node is still there. The node can, for example, still be hacked even though you've just been defeated in cybercombat." (I'll have to provide a page number for you when I get home. The comlink functions as a router for your PAN. It's node can be hacked by hackers who want access to your devices. Nowhere does it say that this doesn't apply if the persona is crashed through cybercombat. If you believe this to be the case, specify a page number.) "A persona is a type of icon." (I'll get the page number and quote for you tonight.) "Unlike other icons, it has the ability to travel between nodes while its files and such "reside" on its home node." (There is no actual reference to "files" residing anywhere; it was an analogy I used based on interpreted data. If you challenge the statement that only Personas can do this, I'll go into more detail on how I came to this interpretation. If you find any references to non-Persona non-Agent icons being able to perform this function, please specify a page number.) "It is not "everything on your comlink" but serves as an interface that allows you to access everything on your comlink," (No page numbers on hand, but I'll provide one later. It's in the very first paragraph of the description for Persona.) "in much the same way that all icons are merely similiar interfaces." (I'll provide page numbers and quotes later tonight.) "It is not 'everything on your comlink' " (It's not. It doesn't say that anywhere. If it does, provide a page number. The burden of proof is not on me.) "but you can load programs from your comlink into the persona to carry around with you and use in the Matrix, on whatever node the persona is located in." (This one I have. p.227. Loading and Using Programs. "In order to activate a program, the user must first have the program available (on his comlink or one of his networked devices). The program must then be loaded into the Persona's memory and run, which takes a Complex Action." Later I will provide a page number to show that you use these programs through your persona and your persona moves from node to node to interact in the Matrix. It's in the description for Personas.) "It can be compared to a digital representation of "you" walking around through a building. The nodes would be the individual rooms within that building." (I'll provide page number and quotes later. In the meantime, feel free to read up on the description for Nodes.) "Your Persona is not your home node." (I don't need to prove a negative condition; the burden of proof is on you to show where in RAW it says that a Persona is a Node.) (There are numerous examples where it specifies rules and description that applies to one and there's nothing to show that it applies to another. For example, nodes cannot be crashed. Ever. OSes can be crashed, icons can be crashed, Personas, agents, but nowhere is it ever said that nodes can be crashed - a node can only be "shut down". Another example is that it says numerously that Personas can move from node to node, but it never says that nodes have this ability. Nodes need to be "accessed" and can be protected with firewalls but nowhere does it say that Personas do. If you find references to any of this, specify page numbers. I can't provide page numbers for rules that you are interpreting that aren't anywhere in the book. I can only point out their absense.) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 08:32 PM
Post
#87
|
|||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Okay, no. Accessing a host is different from uploading executable code. When you access a website, the system generates some information and sends it to your browser; you respond by clicking, requesting additional data using a particularly limited format. Some sites may have some degree of application functionality but that was coded by the site owners and at no point do you upload an .exe/.pl/.asp/.vb/.bin/.dll file to the web site server. The same goes for a matrix site, it sends VR data to your Comm, you move the AR interface/think motions so the comm sends those motions back in the VRml format and the server generates the next round of data. Again, the ONLY executables were specifically placed there by the company or are inherent in the VR interface (animations, movement, physics, lighting, etc). Hmmm, I think I just defined the difference between "user" and "security" grade access. Users have to use the standard tools, Security-approved users get to upload their own tools (aka Agents). Admins get to do whatever they want.
My point is that the RAW does let normal people use Agents without agents needing to execute on remote nodes. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Feb 7 2007, 08:40 PM
Post
#88
|
|||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
That's basically how I look at it. Users may also have restricted access to certain nodes, namespaces, devices, or files as well. Thus, you could hack yourself a user account and use the Computer skill to edit files owned by your account but you'd still roll Hacking + Edit to deal with the security logs of your access since those files were above your security clearance (citizen). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:04 PM
Post
#89
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
No, you can't. Nodes are not personas. None of your quotes say otherwise.
Now show me where it says a node represents your Matrix alter ego.
We know programs (agents at least) can be loaded onto Nodes. This quote tells us that a Persona can also load programs. Okay, point scored. "In conjunction with your device's OS?" "Your persona’s attributes are determined by the attributes of whatever device/OS you are using to access the Matrix—usually your commlink or terminal, though you may sometimes access via other devices." No problem here, but it still doesn't say your Persona is a Node.
Personas have signal ratings?! Wow, I missed that. Saying that your persona is a node just because they both use attributes derived from your comlink is pointless. Everything that has attributes beyond "program rating" uses attributes derived from your commlink: personas, agents, and nodes. Personas are not nodes anymore than an agent is.
Uh huh. And ...? Under page 231, Black IC attacks, it specifies that damage done to a persona with Black IC affects the hacker. However, the Black IC has to trace the user to send a security hacker to the hacker's node to collect evidence. Clearly here, the persona and the node are not the same thing.
I don't know what the point was of posting all of this. It also does not say anywhere that agents are nodes.
We know programs have to be loaded into the persona before they can be used. P.227, loading and using programs. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if a persona has a program loaded then its icon is changed. As for "you" loading programs and "your logo" changing, the Persona is defined as the Matrix representation of "you". "You" (your persona) can't use programs unless you (your Persona) has loaded them. P.227 also specifies another requirement. That the program must be available on your comlink. That tells us that programs can reside in the comlink that are not loaded into your Persona. These programs can be accessed by a hacker hacking into your comlink's node, but not one hacking into your hacker's Persona (because a Persona can't be hacked - but it can be traced back to its home node and then the node can be hacked.)
No, no, no. It says that programs loaded into your Persona affect the Persona, which is not unreasonable. The comlink itself must also have those programs as specified on page 227.
You are changing words here to make it sound like the evidence is supporting your argument. To use a program, it must be loaded into your comlink, which effects your persona icon.
If this worked the way you say it does, then crashing your icon would damage your comlink. This never happens in RAW. What actually happens is that the hacker can be damaged, in the case of Black IC. The Persona is a representation of the hacker. In actuality though, I'm sure Unwired will introduce IC that attacks the comlink with the justification that the Persona is interfacing with both the hacker and the comlink's OS. But the Persona is not the OS, nor is it the hacker. Hackers and OSes aren't nodes either, so this wouldn't help the "node = Persona argument" anyway. Also, as I've said before, just because you are disconnected from the Matrix and the Persona is crashed, it doesn't say anywhere that someone can't hack into your node if they can connect to it wirelessly.
No, it's not possible. Programs must be loaded into your persona to be used. The only exceptions are Agents, which it specifically mentions that you can load onto nodes.
All the Agents do, yes. This is basically what agents are for.
No, it's a correct reading. One "counter-intuitive and stupid" example of these rules in effect is if you want to have IC protecting your PAN when you are not logged in or after your persona is defeated in cybercombat. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:07 PM
Post
#90
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ugh. the insistence of people on accepting the more more complicated, less realistic, less usable explanation for how things work over the simpler, more realistic, more usable one never ceases to amaze me.
you want to believe that your persona is magically separate from the node that it's based in, go ahead. have fun making an entire new ruleset to support how it works. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:13 PM
Post
#91
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Actually, many programs and servers are starting to explore this concept of using computer agents to provide a variety of functions as it travels to other people's hosts. I've been researching this concept in reaction to some of the posts on this thread, and I was surprised how much progress has been made in this area. In addition to the security concerns of protecting a host from malicious agents, a great deal of work and study is going into protecting an agent from malicious hosts. It sounds almost sci-fi-ish. Google punched up lots of fascinating results to "mobile agent" keywords. It may be new and unfamiliar to most home users, but its not so uncommon or unreasonable. Check these out, for starters: Wikipedia - Mobile Agent (computer science) Intelligent Agents |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:27 PM
Post
#92
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861 |
Or we could, you know, just use RAW. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:28 PM
Post
#93
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes. which, the way i read it, links personas to the nodes they are based in.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:33 PM
Post
#94
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Personas are linked to the nodes they are based in. Or rather they are linked to the OS that can be accessed through your node. But the Persona itself is not a node. Explain to me how a Persona can be hacked or "Exploited" like a node. Explain to me how a node can move from one node to another like a Persona. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:36 PM
Post
#95
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I'm just telling you what's in RAW because you disagree. If you don't like the rules, that's fine by me. I'm not saying it "should" work that way. I have custom house rules that work very differently. They are simpler, more realistic, and more useable. I'm just telling you what's in RAW. I don't like RAW. I'm not advocating it. I just disagree with everyone attacking it by making assumptions that aren't supported by the text. There are plenty of more legitimate reasons to be attacking RAW. (I just got the image in my head of RAW's icon and my persona engaged in cybercombat...) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:37 PM
Post
#96
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
oh, gosh! you're right! a persona isn't a node, i've been wrong all al--wait, i never said a persona is a node! nobody said that. nobody said personas can be exploited, or that nodes can move around. i think you may be unwell, cetiah, for you are clearly seeing things that are not actually there. what i said, and what the rules indicate to me, is that if your persona gets knocked offline, the commlink it is based in--the one that its stats are based on--is also knocked offline.
no, you're reading the RAW and interpreting it in such a way that it is broken. it can quite easily be interpreted in other ways--ways which you choose to ignore. in cases where the RAW is unclear, as it is here, you can choose to interpret it such that it makes sense, or such that it doesn't make sense. you are choosing the latter, and then saying "see? see? it's broken! use my house rules instead!" |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:42 PM
Post
#97
|
|||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Links yes, requires that personas remain within, perhaps not. I repeat a question that I think got lost in the shuffle: What, if any, is the difference between the persona and the persona icon? To me, the persona does stay, as mfb has stated above, in the home node of the person who is represented by the persona (i.e., the hacker's commlink). The persona icon, however, is the representation of that persona in the nodes that are accessed by that persona. Thus, the persona remains in the home node and this explains why the persona's attributes do not change. However, the icon of the persona can be used to represent the persona in various nodes at the same time (hence the problems of getting attacked in more than one node). Am I the only person here who actually things the RAW for hacking is perfectly fine? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:49 PM
Post
#98
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Well... that's not my fault. You kind of jumped in the middle of an argument I was making against Frank's earlier statments when he used "seperate from your Persona" interchangeably with "in a node other than the one your Persona is located in" as an argument about how independant agents are loaded in nodes (and whether an agent loaded in your comlink's node should be considered independant). Sorry about that. But I've stayed on topic since I jumped into this whole "node does not equal persona" argument and will do so until the issue is resolved so we can get back to evaluating the previous arguments in the bigger picture. But your statements aren't supported by RAW either and are equally wrong. ;) (1)If this were to happen, the comlink would no longer be protecting your PAN. (2)This means your firewall and all your IC are offline, too. (3)They would no longer be protecting any of your devices from incoming hackers. (4) Further, your programs and files would be immune to being accessed by hackers. Show me where in the book it indicates that you comlink is offline as a result of a persona crash, or that any of the 4 effects above happen as a result of being defeated in cybercombat. What actually happens is that your persona crashes, you are no longer running programs loaded into the persona, and your connection to the Matrix (or to any remote host if you are not connected to the Matrix) is terminated. NOTHING ELSE. Further, there is a paragraph describing what happens when your connection is terminated. It never says that anything happens beyond that the connection is terminated and the hacker has to log back in (and the node may be in alert). It actually implies that nodes can terminate connections and are therefore not affected by a terminated connection. (i.e., terminating connection does not equal "shutdown node") Connections can be severed, and this does not imply an effect on anything else beyond the connection. This doesn't even cause dumpshock. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:51 PM
Post
#99
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Probably. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 7 2007, 09:58 PM
Post
#100
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
for the love of mike. 1. no, your PAN is not "unprotected" when your commlink goes down, it's offline. the individual devices are up and running, but they aren't communicating with anything because you've turned off their ability to do so when you set up your PAN--if you didn't, then your commlink's not protecting anything. 2. yes, your Firewall and IC are both offline. this doesn't matter, because your commlink is offline, and is therefore immune to Matrix intrusion. 3. your individual devices are immune to hackers while your commlink is offline, because unless you're an idiot, your individual devices have had their wireless capabilities disabled, so that they can only be accessed via skinlink through your commlink. if your devices haven't had their wireless connectivity disabled, then they're prone to being hacked whether your commlink is online or not. 4. and lastly, yes, if your commlink is offline, your files are indeed immune to being accessed by hackers. i don't need to point out chapter and verse because there isn't any, because those effects are the logical consequence of your commlink being offline. show me in the book where it says that if you die, your heart stops beating. having your connection to a particular node severed != getting kicked offline. if you are banned from a website, that doesn't cause Firefox to lock up--you just can't access that website anymore. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 13th April 2022 - 01:56 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.