 Using Decrease Attribute with Shapechange, Is this possible? |
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 Feb 9 2007, 12:25 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130  |
1. Would I be able to use Decrease Body to decrease my Body attribute to be within range of being able to change into a dog if my body was normally 6.
2. If yes to 1, then would I be able to unsustain the Decrease Body and still be able to maintain the shapechange form of a dog. The body limitation is only to assume the form, it says nothing about once the form is already assumed. It also says the magician can use spells normally. Wouldn't this mean that if I increased my body with a spell while shapechanged, it would most definitely increase with no problems? So would there then be any reason a body increase from unsustaining Decrease Body mess anything up? 3. On the example forms for this spell it lists Eagle form, but eagle critters are not listed under ordinary critters. Would I just use the Thunderbird's stats without the magic and powers? It does say they very closely resemble eagles. 4. What about other animals like Bears, Guerillas, Hawks, Octopus', Squid, Cheetahs, Bats, and other animals? 5. Is there any SR3 reference that lists stats for more ordinary critters? 6. It is obvious that more forms are meant to be able to be used. A very good indicator of this is Eagle form, which is completely missing from the ordinary critters section. If Eagle form is mentioned in the description of the spell but not in the ordinary critters section, wouldn't that then mean ordinary critters not mentioned in the section are allowed? The book doesn't ever say the shapechange spell is exclusive only to those critters in the ordinary critter section. It merely suggests to use it as a reference. 7. Has there been any official word on the shapechange spell in regards to ordinary critters allowed? |
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Feb 9 2007, 12:32 AM
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#2
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
1. Sure, and it's a good application of the spells. Well thought.
2. Yup. You're already a dog and will remain that way till the shapechange is dropped. Thus, if your attributes change (either from dropping the original spell or from casting a new one) you still stay a dog. 3. That works for me. 4. Go to http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/index.php and create an account. You can download the old SR3 critter guide for free which has a bunch of stats for normal critters. You'll have to extrapolate from there, but it's a decent starting point. 5. See 4 6. I'd allow any non-sentient, non-paranormal critter. You want to be a naked mole rat, have a good time. 7. Not beyond that which is in the books. The FAQ doesn't even have the word "shapechange" in it :) |
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Feb 9 2007, 12:53 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Response to #4
Critters is an SR3 guide for paracritters, not ordinary critters. |
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Feb 9 2007, 01:22 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
"Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged." so you decrease your body to a 4... then you get 5 hits on your shapechange spell... the body is 7... can't change into the dog now can you? body 2 critter, you get 5 hits, it's now a body 7 critter you transform into. perhaps the rule is meant to limit YOUR attributes, otherwise I could be an all physical stats 1 dwarf change into a dog and get 5 hits then POOF sustaining focus now you get a 7 8 8 7 for almost free! |
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Feb 9 2007, 01:25 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
The limitation is for the base body attribute of the form as described in the description of the spell. I think you are misunderstanding how the spell works. Any manipulations to base body form, due to hits, are done when the effects of the spell have taken affect and when the form has been assumed. There is no limitation on how high your attributes in the assumed form can be due to hits. I could get 15 hits and the dogs body in the assumed form would be 17. Of course, as long as the spell was a Force 15 spell. That is the limitation on the hits, as it is with every other single spell in SR4. |
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Feb 9 2007, 01:40 AM
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#6
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Page 19 of the of the critters guide for SR3 has normal critters.
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Feb 9 2007, 01:47 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
so are the modifications, as I pointed out |
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Feb 9 2007, 02:20 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Your interpretation of the rules is not supported by the description of the spell. Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section, p. 285, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged. This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform other tasks requiring speech. Critter form works like the Shapechange spell, but only allows the subject to change into a specific non-paranormal animal. Each critter form is a different spell (Eagle Form, Wolf Form, and so on). The bolded part is the limitation. It says nothing of the modified base body rating being restricted to being within 2 of the targets body. If it was in fact as you say, it would instead say modified base body rating rather than saying only base body rating; completely omitting any word which could be taken to mean modified or modification. |
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Feb 9 2007, 02:23 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I believe I am looking at the wrong book then. I am guessing the full name of the book is Critters Guide rather than Critters. If it is the Critters SR3 book, then I don't believe an Aardwolf is an ordinary non-paranormal critter. |
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Feb 9 2007, 02:40 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
I think you are right. You can be made a smaller creature, like turning a troll into a mouse, but you couldn't turn a dwarf into an elephant (not a full sized one, though a dwarf sized one would be possible). When made smaller, the body has the attributes of the new small form. Therefore, the troll would be greatly reduced in Body while being a mouse. To put it another way: a character with a Body of 5 could be turned into a critter with a body of frin 7 to 1. |
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Feb 9 2007, 02:52 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
your bolded text stops too soon "Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates." that tells you the base attribute ratings for the shapechanged spellcaster. Thane a troll of body 7 can't turn into a dog since the critter he has to turn into has to have a body of 5 minimum, and 9 maximum. |
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Feb 9 2007, 02:55 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I don't see how this contradicts what I have said. Also, I believe Thane was speaking from the implication that decrease attribute is being used to make a Troll into a mouse. Thus, if the Troll used decrease attribute to make his body 2, a Troll could assume the form of a mouse. If Thane was not taking Decrease Attribute into account, then I agree with Djinni. It specifically states 2 greater or less. |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:03 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
the base attribute ratings for the form you assume is the critters base attribute ratings, plus the hits. you aren't turning into fido you are turning into "Animal X" you aren't modifying the atttributes of fido you are creating a new animal. you don't have modified attributes, you have base attributes. shapechange, not mimic you can't say that you are using the base attributes when you feel like it you either use a rule all the time or you don't. a troll's base body is still going to be his base body regardless of whether or not you use the spell decrease attribute to decrease it. |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:05 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
The rules do not say plus the hits. It says the base body attribute as given on the chart on page 285. The hits are not included in the base body attribute. For very good reason too, because the hits included are not the base body attribute as listed on page 285.
Not only that, but if it works the way you say it does, then there is no absolute way to tell what creature a character can really shapechange into. It would actually be all based upon how many hits are gotten on the spellcasting test rather than the base body attribute on page 285. |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:07 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
the base attribute for the animal no the shapeshifted spellcaster.... if you are correct you've just pointed out that the spell cannot be used to make a troll a mouse |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:11 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
The difference is, the Troll would be using decrease attribute to make his body that amount. Once his body is 2, he would then be using the rules as stated for shapechange to become a mouse. I don't know what you are trying to imply, maybe you could be more specific. |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:15 AM
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#17
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I don't know what you're looking at, but the free download of the critters booklet -- the one that came with the SR3 GM screen -- has normal critters on page 19 (in the PDF). I just looked at my old paper copy and it's the same page. Not sure what's going on either. Here's the one I'm looking at. |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:22 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
One other thing to Djinni, notice how it says in the description:
Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates It definitively says your adding to the Base attribute Ratings on page 285. Not forming new Base attribute Ratings based upon the sum of the hits generated on the spellcasting test + the Base attribute Ratings on page 285 to create a new modified Base attribute Rating. Understand? |
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Feb 9 2007, 03:31 AM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i believe that "base attribute" only refers to the animal. for the target of the spell, the attribute used for comparison is "his own"--not his base attribute, which would be the same for all characters of a given metatype, the way it's the same for all critters of the same species. whether or not temporary adjustments to a character's attributes count as "his own" or not is up to the GM.
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Feb 9 2007, 04:01 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I would then have to take that to mean Natural body attribute. But then what would you do about people with an Augmented body attribute? Isn't it easier just to let the rules work as written? I think if they meant Natural body attribute they would have said so. In this case, I take base body attribute to mean the character's or ordinary critter's body attribute before the shapechange spell. This is the only frame of reference base can pull its definition from. It doesn't mention body from spells, cyberware, bioware, or anything else for that matter. To put it simply, considering the context in which base is used, base body attribute means before any modifiers from the shapechange spell have taken affect. If someone thinks otherwise I would be interested to hear why. To be clear, this is in reference to "his own" attribute meaning natural. Not anything you said before that. I also agree that anything is up to the GM. What I want to know is that if a GM decided to interpret differently, would it be a House Rule? |
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Feb 9 2007, 04:21 AM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not sure it means the character's natural attribute. it doesn't say to use the natural attribute--just to use his attribute, whatever that is. my assumption would be that it means to use the character's total attribute--whatever he'd roll on a test.
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Feb 9 2007, 04:36 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
"The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own." "his own" is linked to "base body rating" and can be added behind not changing the meaning of the sentence (much in the same way the understood "you" is used) since we've all taken english classes we should recognize that part immediately. |
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Feb 9 2007, 04:40 AM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, except that then you're not talking about the character's actual bought-with-bp-and-karma attribute, you're talking about the base attribute for his metatype. so, for all trolls, you'd use Body 8. which makes a certain kind of sense, i guess, but seems kinda weird.
this is assuming that "base attribute" = 3 + racial mods, as it has in previous editions--a shaky assumption, given the massive changes made to the game in 4th ed. |
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Feb 9 2007, 05:54 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
so then since that isn't defined in the book does that mean RAW shapechange can't be cast? |
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Feb 9 2007, 07:09 AM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
according to your interpretation? yeah. that's kinda why i'm suggesting a different interpretation.
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