"Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged."

so you decrease your body to a 4...
then you get 5 hits on your shapechange spell...
the body is 7...
can't change into the dog now can you?

body 2 critter, you get 5 hits, it's now a body 7 critter you transform into.
perhaps the rule is meant to limit YOUR attributes,
otherwise I could be an all physical stats 1 dwarf change into a dog and get 5 hits then POOF sustaining focus
now you get a 7 8 8 7 for almost free!

The limitation is for the base body attribute of the form as described in the description of the spell. I think you are misunderstanding how the spell works. Any manipulations to base body form, due to hits, are done when the effects of the spell have taken affect and when the form has been assumed. There is no limitation on how high your attributes in the assumed form can be due to hits. I could get 15 hits and the dogs body in the assumed form would be 17. Of course, as long as the spell was a Force 15 spell. That is the limitation on the hits, as it is with every other single spell in SR4.

so are the modifications, as I pointed out

Your interpretation of the rules is not supported by the description of the spell.

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal
(non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains
human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form
of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less
than her own. Consult the Critters section, p. 285, for the
subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1 to
the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster
generates. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment.
Magicians in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform
other tasks requiring speech.
Critter form works like the Shapechange spell, but only
allows the subject to change into a specific non-paranormal
animal. Each critter form is a different spell (Eagle Form,
Wolf Form, and so on).

The bolded part is the limitation. It says nothing of the modified base body rating being restricted to being within 2 of the targets body. If it was in fact as you say, it would instead say modified base body rating rather than saying only base body rating; completely omitting any word which could be taken to mean modified or modification.

I believe I am looking at the wrong book then. I am guessing the full name of the book is Critters Guide rather than Critters. If it is the Critters SR3 book, then I don't believe an Aardwolf is an ordinary non-paranormal critter.

I think you are right. You can be made a smaller creature, like turning a troll into a mouse, but you couldn't turn a dwarf into an elephant (not a full sized one, though a dwarf sized one would be possible). When made smaller, the body has the attributes of the new small form. Therefore, the troll would be greatly reduced in Body while being a mouse.

To put it another way: a character with a Body of 5 could be turned into a critter with a body of frin 7 to 1.

your bolded text stops too soon
"Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates."
that tells you the base attribute ratings for the shapechanged spellcaster.

Thane a troll of body 7 can't turn into a dog since the critter he has to turn into has to have a body of 5 minimum, and 9 maximum.

I don't see how this contradicts what I have said. Also, I believe Thane was speaking from the implication that decrease attribute is being used to make a Troll into a mouse. Thus, if the Troll used decrease attribute to make his body 2, a Troll could assume the form of a mouse. If Thane was not taking Decrease Attribute into account, then I agree with Djinni. It specifically states 2 greater or less.

the base attribute ratings for the form you assume is the critters base attribute ratings, plus the hits.
you aren't turning into fido
you are turning into "Animal X"
you aren't modifying the atttributes of fido
you are creating a new animal.
you don't have modified attributes, you have base attributes.
shapechange, not mimic

you can't say that you are using the base attributes when you feel like it you either use a rule all the time or you don't.
a troll's base body is still going to be his base body regardless of whether or not you use the spell decrease attribute to decrease it.

the base attribute for the animal no the shapeshifted spellcaster....
if you are correct you've just pointed out that the spell cannot be used to make a troll a mouse

The difference is, the Troll would be using decrease attribute to make his body that amount. Once his body is 2, he would then be using the rules as stated for shapechange to become a mouse. I don't know what you are trying to imply, maybe you could be more specific.

I don't know what you're looking at, but the free download of the critters booklet -- the one that came with the SR3 GM screen -- has normal critters on page 19 (in the PDF). I just looked at my old paper copy and it's the same page. Not sure what's going on either. Here's the one I'm looking at.

I would then have to take that to mean Natural body attribute. But then what would you do about people with an Augmented body attribute? Isn't it easier just to let the rules work as written? I think if they meant Natural body attribute they would have said so. In this case, I take base body attribute to mean the character's or ordinary critter's body attribute before the shapechange spell. This is the only frame of reference base can pull its definition from. It doesn't mention body from spells, cyberware, bioware, or anything else for that matter. To put it simply, considering the context in which base is used, base body attribute means before any modifiers from the shapechange spell have taken affect. If someone thinks otherwise I would be interested to hear why.

To be clear, this is in reference to "his own" attribute meaning natural. Not anything you said before that. I also agree that anything is up to the GM. What I want to know is that if a GM decided to interpret differently, would it be a House Rule?

"The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own."
"his own" is linked to "base body rating" and can be added behind not changing the meaning of the sentence (much in the same way the understood "you" is used) since we've all taken english classes we should recognize that part immediately.

so then since that isn't defined in the book does that mean RAW shapechange can't be cast?

It's not a direct answer but it might help.

Actually what we usually do in my group's games is if the GM doesn't mind you can create a modified version of a spell by increasing the drain code. This is the end result of trying to sustain another spell anyway. Then if you are specifically wanting a Troll to Mouse spell you can limit the target group I think. this will bring down the drain some.

ATTRIBUTES
In my game, we use the Body Attribute of the specific character (not some average of the metatype) unmodified by cyberware/bioware. The theory here is that those things (cyber/bio) don't crossover or relate to magic/mana. If the body is modified magically (via spell or adept power,) then it translates over.

We compare that unmodified (or magically modified) body attribute to the base Body attribute of the specific type of creature (the average of it's kind) the character wants to transform into. They can not be more than 2 different.

Hence, the original question about the Attribute spell being able to facilitate a shapechange to an otherwise wrong-sized creature, in our interpretation, would be allowed.

Furthermore, we take those base physical attributes of the "average" creature being morphed into and apply the number of successes in casting the spell to them to generate new stats for the "specific" creature the character has become.

Thus, Joe Runner, a human, with Attributes:
B A R S C I L W
4 5 4 4 2 2 3 4

wants to shape change into a wolf, whose average creature attributes are:
B A R S C I L W
2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3

would become a shapechanged wolf with attributes as follows, should the spell be cast on him with 3 successes:

B A R S C I L W
5 6 6 5 2 2 3 4

{We believe all of the above to be the "spirit" of the spell.. the way it was intended to be interpreted.}


ABILITIES
The the newly shapechanged character has any skills that the type of creature that he has morphed into natively has. It would be pretty silly to change into a bird and not be able to fly instantly, or change into the above wolf and not be able to naturally walk and run as a creature with four legs. What would be the point?

We also claim any physical skills that the type of creature has natively are carried over to the character at the power they are listed at, even if they do not posses those skills (or posses them at a lower level.) If the character has the same skills at a higher level normally, then they retain those higher levels.

For example, the normal wolf above has the following skills:
Infiltration 2, Perception 2, Tracking 2, Unarmed Combat 4

Shapechanged Joe Runner also has Infiltration normally, but at a 4 so he keeps his normal Infiltration 4. He normally has Unarmed Combat at a 2 so he increases to a Unarmed of 4 while in wolf form. He didn't have Tracking at all, so gains this at a 2.

This reasoning also applies to the concept of Powers: Natural weapons. A shapechanged wolf character retains his: claws/bite (DV:2, AP:0)

{We believe all of the above to be in the spirit of what the spell is saying it does, tho' there could be some room for debate, especially concerning the way to handle natural animal abilities and powers. There can be really not much debate that the spirit of the spell was intended to allow you to "function" as a creature and be able to walk, fly or swim as the native could.}

CYBERWARE
In the case of cyberware being able to be used, we say "No." We do believe that it is "carried along" and will be present, in place, intact and functional when the subject remorphs into its native form. I would love to hear an official comment on this, however. It seems VERY limiting to only allow non-cybered characters to shapechange, or to have them be damaged/killed because their cyberware is left on the ground after they change, not to be present when they return to native form.

We also make allowances that any foci/fetish are also carried along as some sort of intangible force that reappear when the subject remorphes. The reasoning behind this is that hey are not mundane things and are "bonded" with the shapechanged character

{This is a complete house rule concerning cyberware and foci/fetishes. We simply prefer it that way and I can see how the official ruling could be otherwise. }

I am not claiming any of the above rulings to be the absolute truth. I am saying what several players, all knowledgable of the game and intelligent have reasoned from the text in multiple discussions as being the "spirit" of the spell. I hope this reasoning helps others.

Vlad

The rest of you post is very agreeable Vlad, but there is one element this part fails to take into account. Smaller creatures than the average creature given. There is no reason why the shapechange spell, given its description and page 285, that it would not cover smaller species as well. In fact, the wolf description is a perfect example of what the extra hits are generated to do. To create an alpha male or a prime creature of that specific species. Using your method prevents me from ever shapechanging into a Chihuahua for the dog. Or a Sharpnose Shark which is normally close to half the size of a Bull Shark. If the shapechange spell worked as you said, the hits could also be used to decrease the attributes to turn into a smaller species if preferred over a larger depending on the circumstances. However it makes much more sense if from the get go I chose to turn into a Chihuahua and the hits would be added. That way smaller species still benefit from the hits on the spellcasting test.

Thank you for your post. It really lays out everything well and gives more structure to the spell which is definitely needed.

Hey! Thanks for such a nice reply to my post.

I would like to say that for all my long winded typing, I wasn't completely clear.

Under my take on the spell, there is no reason your character couldn't change into a Chihuahua (barring not managing to meet the original "Character's Body needs to be within 2" rule, which can be gotten around with spells.)

I used the base stats for a "common wolf" for convenience to show what I was doing with the attributes and skills/powers since it was listed in the BBB. The "base stats" for a little dog like that would not be the same as the base stats for the "common dog" listed in the BBB. Your GM would simply have to come up with stats for that type of dog. I would say the BOD of such a creature would be a 1, with a STR to match. Reaction and agility would probably be similar to the "common dog."

Obviously the successes on the spellcasting are going to raise the final stats for the "shapechaged Chihuahua." (Couldn't you have used "teacup poodle" for your example? It's a lot easier to type. ) I view these higher than normal stats to be the magical property of being a shapechanged creature. While the final Body might be a 4 for the Chihuahua, it is not going to actually "be" any larger than a normal specimen of it's ilk. The additional Body or Strength or Agility is the magical nature of the shapechanged beastie.

There is a huge precedent for the GM creating stats for different animals. The book itself mentions using an "Eagle Form" for the related "Critter Form" spell and I defy you to find a critter listing for "Eagle" in the BBB. *shrugs* It would have been nice if FanPro had listed at least a few more types of animals, especially flying ones or ones with other odd characteristics so as to be better able to extrapolate from the stats similar creatures that aren't listed. They obviously meant for us to do so. On the other hand, they only had so many pages to work with.

While there are a few things I don't like about the 4th Ed of SR (ie. the new Initiative! I hate guaranteed phases), overall I think it's a faster moving, quicker resolving , more streamlined game. My players, who I began running SR3 with when it first came out, seem to feel that way as well.

Vlad