 SR4 is too modern or near modern sometimes, futuristic consistency |
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 Feb 13 2007, 10:33 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765  |
Metal Hydrite...yeah, that's the one. Some MIT knob got great kudos for that in the papers a few years back (or was it UCLA??? Gah! Who knows?).
The fun thing of it is, the average high school student can create hydrogen at home. I suspect with the right equipment (and not necessarily refridgerant type... I mean one way flow valves and proper storage) the hydrogen could be converted to liquid at home. Dangerous? Eh. So is cooking when you think about it. Timidity is one thing that keeps us in the gutters technology wise. I want the mad scientists who occasionally blow up their labs back (Nobel, I'm looking at YOU!!!). |
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Feb 13 2007, 10:33 PM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I think I get what you're saying. This problem can be looked at from many, many angles and contains so many factors we couldn't possibly address them all. Spike's right - at the scale you're talking about, identifying and singling out the effects of 1% efficiency from 1% of the river that makes up far less than 1% of the tidal patterns on Earth is just impossible. It's like trying to decide what the weather conditions are for a factory that literally pumps smoke into the air. Pollution aside, if I pump gas into the sky, does this increase wind factor at all? Even if you assume the entire continental land mass is covered with these or the entire ocean floor is filled with these, it's imperceptible and impossible to single out. And there are far more significant factors involved in weather and tidal issues and such. Also, it's kind of a self-correcting problem isn't it. Hypothetically, let's say you were right and wind patterns DID lessen. In that case, people would stop using wind power in those areas and move it to other areas. Unless wind was stopped altogether this doesn't seem like a problem once you expand the scale. I don't know; like I said, you can address the issue from any amount of angles. I don't think anyone knows or could know until we wreck a couple more planets. The science of planet-killing is still in its infancy despite our great advancements. This sounds like an advanced question for Energy Economics. Although, this is a great idea for shadowruns... A hydroelectric plant becomes targetted by radical eco groups for contributing to Tidal Pollution... hehehe. Why not? People are concerned with light pollution and noise pollution today. |
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Feb 13 2007, 10:35 PM
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#103
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Actually, it depends who you mean by "we." If the US wants to buy corn for fuel, then they'll outbid Mexico that wants it for food. Essentially that's what has happened - the US demand for it for these purposes has priced it out of the range of a poorer country. The cost of transportation barely factors in this case. It's purely US fuel consumption taking precedence. And when you throw in subsides, then it skews it even further. You say the US pays farmers to leave fields fallow. That's a means of keeping prices high. If transportation were the limiting cost as you say, then the market would control itself. Anyway, I should probably leave this subject before I start explaining the role of NAFTA in this situation. ;) Was just pointing out that the rich taking away from the poor's food supply to fuel lifestyle was not something from a dystopian future. Sadly. On topic, here's one I think's been missed from the discussion: Solar Updraft Tower I don't know if it's energy efficient, but it would be great fun to hang-glide over. :) |
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Feb 13 2007, 10:46 PM
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#104
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Uhhh... the US pays subsidies for famers to PRODUCE at a certain quota, otherwise they'll have far fewer farmers as those industries become less profitable and there will be less suppliers, increasing prices. These subsidies exist to keep food and agricultural research as plentiful products.
Agreed. I found it kind of strange that even with these sci-fi alternative energy ideas, third world countries with large undeveloped stretches of land continue to be the best sources for energy. |
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Feb 13 2007, 11:46 PM
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#105
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I forgot to comment about this before. If we accept "rail guns" as a possibility, than we have to assume rail-launch technology will be the next logical step and so Waste in Space won't use lifter rockets or shuttle fleets anymore, but rather a rail launch mechanism that will either fire off an egg into the sky and not care where it goes or rail-launch a craft into earth orbit which will steer the egg into the sun. I also think that if you accept the rail-launch strategy, there will be much more of an incentive to broaden our definition of the word "trash." A more liberal definition would help our trash-removal technologies deal with some related problems regarding urban sprawl and too many SINless running around... |
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Feb 13 2007, 11:56 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756 |
From what I understand, the whole rail launch technique has some severe technical hurdles to using it on earth. Moon-based ones would work, but the amount of energy required to launch things out of earths gravity well creates problems on the material side, particularly with resurfacing the rails on railgun-esque launchers.
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Feb 14 2007, 12:04 AM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
Farmers are paid not to farm certain amounts of their land becuase if they went full bore, then crop prices would drop so much that many would lose their farms. This is partly due to improvements in farm production, but also largely due to transportation. If you look back at history, food prices were high in the US during Colonial times because transporation was poor. When the Erie Canal was opened, the price of grain in the Northeast (which previously had to come by road through the mountains from the Ohio regions) plummeted. Prices again fell dramatically when the railroads spread through the Great Plains, giving the farmers easier access to the big markets to the east. Prices dropped so much that it caused a crisis and many farmers went under.
After the two world wars, we saw the same thing again. Improved tranportation in the form of faster and stronger trains, as well as better farm machinery and fertilizers, caused price drops. The problem ws becoming that banks had all these farms from foreclosures and couldn't do anything with them. So, there was pressure from the bankers and the farmers to relieve the pressure. Thus came about the subsidies. There were other issues too, of course, like piratical rates charged by the railroads for transport and storage or grain in the Plains, but the above were the big movers. Now, had the farmers gotten together and former Co-ops to spread the costs just like the big agrobusinesses do, they could have faired better. Anyway, transportation costs small if you are talking about ship transport, it just takes a bit of time. Rail is next most cost effective. Trucks are a distant third and planes are well below that. So, shipping food around the world by ship certainly is doable. |
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Feb 14 2007, 12:05 AM
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#108
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...but first we have to get rid of meddling organisations like OSHA. Heck, Vulcanisation of rubber was only one process that resulted from a lab accident. |
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Feb 14 2007, 12:12 AM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756 |
Well, a little bit of research shows that the US is responsible for ~60% of food aid, worldwide, with the next closest contributor the EU, at ~20%. Could we do better? Probably. But we are definitely trying to help.
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Feb 14 2007, 01:54 AM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I was actually discussing something vaguely related on another forum. The US is significantly larger than the EU, and has a lot more unoccupied land. We (yes, I'm from the EU) simply have less resouirces to grow food for aid.
Still, more pertinent to this discussion: growing crops for biofuel wouldn't exactly solve greenhouse gas emission problems. Regardless of how much GHGs burning biofuels generates, a major factor in GHG production is, in fact, agriculture. Of course this isn't really my field, so I won't quote any figures. Ultimately the fuels that predominate in your SR world is up to you, and will likely have fairly minimal effects on your players. Systems that are excessively dangerous or impractical (moreso than modern systems, say) would find little takeup from the general public, so it is entirely reasonable to just handwave the specific tech and treat it as though it had similar properties as the modern system. One thing that might be interesting is the different kinds of protests that might arise (such as the anti tidal power group complaining about the loss of breeding grounds for wild fish stocks, or the public safety group complaining about the possibility of orbital power collectors inadvertantly turning into orbital death rays etc.) |
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Feb 14 2007, 01:59 AM
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#111
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...hehhehheh...Pele's Wrath...hehhehheh... |
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Feb 14 2007, 02:26 AM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756 |
Yes, ornot, but actually giving people food is only 1/3 of food aid. The three types are giving another government money to buy food/ lower the costs of purchasing food themselves, sponsoring programs that teach natives how to produce their own food/finance local food production centers, and emergency relief, which is actually shipping food straight to the starving people. My understanding is that the emergency relief is the exception, not the rule.
*EDIT* Sorry, this has gotten totally off topic and seems to consist of me defending the US policies current day, instead of talking about the game that we all enjoy. I'll try to keep my jingoism to myself a little better from here on out. |
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Feb 14 2007, 06:15 AM
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#113
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I know - which was the point. |
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Feb 14 2007, 11:14 PM
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#114
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,072 |
Why are there still combustion engines that use gasoline?
Whats so wierd is that there have been many alternatives to gas over the years. Heh heh, didn't WW2 Germany use synth and biofuels to power their war machine so they didn't have to become reliant on foreign oil. (Sheesh I know another country that should have been following that idea...) *Well you come up with a cool idea to an alternate technology for cars and some guy from Shell pays you 100 million for the patent even a bleeding heart wouldn't turn that kind of money down. Maybe thats why..." |
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Feb 14 2007, 11:49 PM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Do you think patents still exist in Shadowrun? It's hard to imagine anyone actually enforcing it. But without it, there's less need to "steal the secret prototype plans". |
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Feb 15 2007, 12:22 AM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Actually, with patents you don't have to steal the plans at all. They become open knowledge, on file with the Patent Office, where any goober can go take a peak at 'em...
Would make certain shadowruns sooooo much easier. Nobody's shooting the Patent office... |
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Feb 15 2007, 12:40 AM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
The earliest cars ran on a wide variety of fuels, including electricity, gas and I think steam. Petroleum just proved to be the most efficient in terms of weight and portability.
As for patents, I can see the corporate court enforcing those. It's in the megas interest to restrict smaller companies. Makes them easier to control. Even so, it seems likely that certain megas wouldn't want to file patents of some of their developments, if they were of a sensitive nature and wide availability was never planned. |
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Feb 15 2007, 01:01 AM
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#118
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The point is that prototypes exist prior to patenting.
Thus, stealing them is really evil. |
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Feb 15 2007, 01:01 AM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
But would magical formula be patentable at all? According to the US Patent Office guidlines, literary works, compositions of music, and mathematical formula are not considered "manufactured" and hence, by themselves, are not patentable. In theory, a magical formula would be akin to a work of art or a mathematical process... wouldn't it? |
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Feb 15 2007, 01:09 AM
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#120
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Software patents, that is, patents on algorithms or desings, are widespread in the US.
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Feb 15 2007, 01:21 AM
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#121
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Gasoline was a waste product of oil refining/ |
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Feb 15 2007, 01:55 AM
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#122
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
while i have not checked the entire thread, mythbusters did a episode about fuel sources...
at one time they injected hydrogen gas into the engine. lets just say they had some typical mythbuster results ;) |
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Feb 15 2007, 07:58 AM
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#123
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Ah, he said 'megas' not 'mages. ' ;) Patents would still be around in 2070. The way legislation is going in the US, patents from today will still be around in 2070. ;) In the really real world, I don't think it's viable. Everything is too inter-related and it would get to the point where no-one could develop anything. In fact, I'd argue that we're quite possibly at that point already in many areas and the only thing that keeps us going is that so many big companies have such big patent portfolios that everyone is infringing on everyone else and no-one dares launch the first strike. Does make a wonderful barrier to entry for small companies and individuals though. I heard a theory that the reason we haven't seen heavy patent action is because everyone is waiting for the EU to approve software patents. The chances of this happening after a major patent litigation orgy in the US is much smaller. Now that the people of the EU managed to get overturned the software patent laws that various businesses were sponsoring in the European paliament, I don't know what effect it's had. I do have direct inside knowledge of one major british company that has a whole pile of software patents that have been "approved" and is champing at the bit to get these laws enacted. They're still publically billing their patent portfolio as a major weapon (I mean asset), for when the laws are brought back but I don't know what the top level are privately thinking. Maybe they know something I don't. To translate it into Shadowrun, I think the interweaving patents of megas would be so overlapping as to be meaningless. Perhaps all such patents are referred over the CC and everyone pays a licence (everyone that can). It's a big mess, that's for sure. |
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Feb 16 2007, 01:43 AM
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#124
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Hehe... That's kindof what I was getting at by suggesting that the megacorpss would encourage and protect patents. While the megas themselves wouldn't be able to challenge each other, (as then they'd get a patent infringement thrown right back at them) it would be a powerful tool in controlling smaller and emerging corps.
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Mar 4 2007, 02:54 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 |
Hi,
Personally, I think the best answers to these [and many more] questions can be solved by reading old Traveller material. For instance.. Q - why in the far distant future do people use guns as we understand them today ?? A - because firing a lump of very fast metal at a target is very difficult to stop, is cheap and is easy to maintain. Interestingly, it looks like many people here think that Cyberpunk must be like Bladerunner, which is a shame and really misses out on what Cyberpunk is about. Some people here should read some of the Cyberpunk stories and maybe they'd realise that it's about change, regardless of the mileau. There's nothing to stop Cyberpunk being set in the far future, or the past - indeed Transhuman Space [GURPS] or Transmetropolitan or Difference Machine are quite Cyberpunk. Just my thruppence, Synner667 |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th June 2026 - 09:19 AM |
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