Shadowrun seems to have some problems when it comes to the future and what would actually be around in the year 2070. I am going to name a few things that just don't make sense to me and would like to hear what you think.
Why are there still combustion engines that use gasoline?
Where are the future fuel sources?
Why do guns work almost exactly work the way they do today?
Why is friendly fire something I even have to worry about when using suppressive fire?
Why aren't guns electrically propelling the bullet with magnetic force?
Why are bullets and magazines still used in guns?
Where are the energy weapons like rail-guns and plasma rifles?
Why are there nuclear waste and toxic places like Glow City when we are on the verge of finding ways to reliably remove it ourselves?
Where are the forcefields and teleportation devices?
Where is all the cool SCIFI stuff that I can't think of right now, but would be here in 2070?
Full Version: SR4 is too modern or near modern sometimes
Dude, you're playing the wrong game.
The tech in Shadowrun is a genre-related decision. It's cyberpunk.
Teleporting around zapping fools with laser cannons could technically be cyberpunk, but not the kind I'd want to play. I'm sure many of Shadowrun fans agree with me on this one, and the ones that don't have probably already made pages and pages of houserules.
My friend hated the way tech worked in the exact opposite way you do (he thought it was too far-future) so he rewrote the whole damned game.
The tech in Shadowrun is a genre-related decision. It's cyberpunk.
Teleporting around zapping fools with laser cannons could technically be cyberpunk, but not the kind I'd want to play. I'm sure many of Shadowrun fans agree with me on this one, and the ones that don't have probably already made pages and pages of houserules.
My friend hated the way tech worked in the exact opposite way you do (he thought it was too far-future) so he rewrote the whole damned game.
I ain't no Shadowrun Expert™, but here goes anyway.
1. They use biodiesel, mostly. Some stuff (like rocket fuel) still uses stuff based on raw oil, but that's about it.
2. They're there, if you look around. However, the world suffered some heavy setbacks because of things like the Awakening creating chaos.
3. Because it's a nice, cost-effective way to kill someone.
4. Because you're maintaining the stability of your gun with your own body. Each bullet isn't individually AI-controlled or something like that.
5. Because rail-guns require a power supply, and power is expensive. Guns are, however, often electrically triggered.
6. Because it's a tried and true method.
7. Rail-guns exist. They are huge. Plasma is still not available in a stable form, AFAIK. Like I said, the world has had a lot of stuff to cope with.
8. Because this is Cyberpunk, and it's supposed to be gritty. Also, because Mother Nature became magical and took revenge here and there. Finally, because old stuff decays, or Ares sets of tac-nukes inside cities.
9. They are not there. Nothing I know of seems to indicate that any of these things will pop up in 63 years. I might be ignorant though.
10. It's not there, or might just happen to be included in one of the forthcoming supplements.
1. They use biodiesel, mostly. Some stuff (like rocket fuel) still uses stuff based on raw oil, but that's about it.
2. They're there, if you look around. However, the world suffered some heavy setbacks because of things like the Awakening creating chaos.
3. Because it's a nice, cost-effective way to kill someone.
4. Because you're maintaining the stability of your gun with your own body. Each bullet isn't individually AI-controlled or something like that.
5. Because rail-guns require a power supply, and power is expensive. Guns are, however, often electrically triggered.
6. Because it's a tried and true method.
7. Rail-guns exist. They are huge. Plasma is still not available in a stable form, AFAIK. Like I said, the world has had a lot of stuff to cope with.
8. Because this is Cyberpunk, and it's supposed to be gritty. Also, because Mother Nature became magical and took revenge here and there. Finally, because old stuff decays, or Ares sets of tac-nukes inside cities.
9. They are not there. Nothing I know of seems to indicate that any of these things will pop up in 63 years. I might be ignorant though.
10. It's not there, or might just happen to be included in one of the forthcoming supplements.
Why are there still combustion engines that use gasoline?
Because they're cheap, they work, and smog is good for the genre.
Where are the future fuel sources?
Most cars in the nicer areas of the sprawl are electrical, or hybrid. In rural areas, solar is popular.
Why do guns work almost exactly work the way they do today?
Because if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. Firearms have been killignpeoplethe same way for five or six centuries (depending on how you want to define "firearm"). My M1 Garand is close to seventy years old, and my brother-in-law still hunts with a Model1897 shotgun from 1897.
And if you think about it, a firearm is really just killing someone the same way as a bow and arrow. It just does it faster, with a smaller "arrow," and with alot less effort on my part.
Why is friendly fire something I even have to worry about when using suppressive fire?
Because, as Murphy says, "friendly fire isn't." Seriously, teach our teammates to duck. (Or, buy a smartlink.)
Why aren't guns electrically propelling the bullet with magnetic force?
Why are bullets and magazines still used in guns?
Where are the energy weapons like rail-guns and plasma rifles?
Because coil guns and mass drivers don't work... at least not in a 2lb. form that can fit in your pocket.
Why are there nuclear waste and toxic places like Glow City when we are on the verge of finding ways to reliably remove it ourselves?
Where are the forcefields and teleportation devices?
Because this is Shadowrun. Its a cyberpunk distopia, not a utopia. This ain't Star Trek.
Where is all the cool SCIFI stuff that I can't think of right now, but would be here in 2070?
Ha! You know, back in 1985, I fully expected to be vacationing on the Moon by 2005. Everyone would have a solar powered car, a robotic maid, and our computers would be small enough to fit on top of your desk. Heck, back in 1985, I was just looking forward to 2005 to be able to print in color at home!
Shadowrun's 2070 has automobiles with AI, fully imersive VR, 100% wireless coverage, orbital colonies, moon and mars bases, cybernetics, genetic engineering, a cure for cancer, and freakin' dragons, wizards, and werebears (Oh my!).
What cool sci-fi stuff is missing? Light sabres, teleporters, and time travel... all the tropes of hand-wavy scifi. Yawn.
Because they're cheap, they work, and smog is good for the genre.
Where are the future fuel sources?
Most cars in the nicer areas of the sprawl are electrical, or hybrid. In rural areas, solar is popular.
Why do guns work almost exactly work the way they do today?
Because if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. Firearms have been killignpeoplethe same way for five or six centuries (depending on how you want to define "firearm"). My M1 Garand is close to seventy years old, and my brother-in-law still hunts with a Model1897 shotgun from 1897.
And if you think about it, a firearm is really just killing someone the same way as a bow and arrow. It just does it faster, with a smaller "arrow," and with alot less effort on my part.
Why is friendly fire something I even have to worry about when using suppressive fire?
Because, as Murphy says, "friendly fire isn't." Seriously, teach our teammates to duck. (Or, buy a smartlink.)
Why aren't guns electrically propelling the bullet with magnetic force?
Why are bullets and magazines still used in guns?
Where are the energy weapons like rail-guns and plasma rifles?
Because coil guns and mass drivers don't work... at least not in a 2lb. form that can fit in your pocket.
Why are there nuclear waste and toxic places like Glow City when we are on the verge of finding ways to reliably remove it ourselves?
Where are the forcefields and teleportation devices?
Because this is Shadowrun. Its a cyberpunk distopia, not a utopia. This ain't Star Trek.
Where is all the cool SCIFI stuff that I can't think of right now, but would be here in 2070?
Ha! You know, back in 1985, I fully expected to be vacationing on the Moon by 2005. Everyone would have a solar powered car, a robotic maid, and our computers would be small enough to fit on top of your desk. Heck, back in 1985, I was just looking forward to 2005 to be able to print in color at home!
Shadowrun's 2070 has automobiles with AI, fully imersive VR, 100% wireless coverage, orbital colonies, moon and mars bases, cybernetics, genetic engineering, a cure for cancer, and freakin' dragons, wizards, and werebears (Oh my!).
What cool sci-fi stuff is missing? Light sabres, teleporters, and time travel... all the tropes of hand-wavy scifi. Yawn.
1) same reason I still drive an '85? There are multi fuel vehicles, but most are electric powered.
2)multi fuel, methane, and electrical IIRC are listed in Rigger 3. And then ther's jet fuel.
3) how else would you like them to work? There's sakura fubuki in SR4 if ya want something differnet
4) ricochets, and bullets don't like you. There is the biomonitr saftey though. BAsically every one in your unit wears a transponder device, and if the smart gun link registers you as being within one meter of where it's sighted to fire, it won't fire.
5) rail guns exist, but like Draug said, they're big. As in vehicle mounted big because of the power requirements. And besides,there's plenty of gun powder to go around.
6) How else would they do it, belt fed? As of SR4 caseless ammo is a lot more comon, so you get more fitting in there.
7) there have been laser weapons since SR2, made by Ares. And they're slowly becoming more cost effective and efficent. But they're also big noise, and mil tech, and will bring a lot of heat down on you.
Because no one is paying them to do it. There are corps that clean up that kind of stuff, usually for the land they clean in exchange, or cred. Shiwase jsut built a new reactor next to the dead one.
9) In R&D. Expect them in.... don't hold your breath.
10) well they have flying cars.. sorta.. if that makes you happier. Virtual opets, lack of privacy, AR, AI, and lots more space stations.
9)
2)multi fuel, methane, and electrical IIRC are listed in Rigger 3. And then ther's jet fuel.
3) how else would you like them to work? There's sakura fubuki in SR4 if ya want something differnet
4) ricochets, and bullets don't like you. There is the biomonitr saftey though. BAsically every one in your unit wears a transponder device, and if the smart gun link registers you as being within one meter of where it's sighted to fire, it won't fire.
5) rail guns exist, but like Draug said, they're big. As in vehicle mounted big because of the power requirements. And besides,there's plenty of gun powder to go around.
6) How else would they do it, belt fed? As of SR4 caseless ammo is a lot more comon, so you get more fitting in there.
7) there have been laser weapons since SR2, made by Ares. And they're slowly becoming more cost effective and efficent. But they're also big noise, and mil tech, and will bring a lot of heat down on you.
Because no one is paying them to do it. There are corps that clean up that kind of stuff, usually for the land they clean in exchange, or cred. Shiwase jsut built a new reactor next to the dead one.9) In R&D. Expect them in.... don't hold your breath.
10) well they have flying cars.. sorta.. if that makes you happier. Virtual opets, lack of privacy, AR, AI, and lots more space stations.
9)
There is a new technology that is just starting out called Direct Conversion Process. They found a way to take the million year process of converting carbon based materials into oil. The plants take any carbon based material (which is nearly everything except metal) and converts it through a pressure cooker process into three outputs - Desiel, Natural Gas (which is turned around and used to power the plant), and Coal. This is currently being used to process chicken parts and tires but it can also do this with sewage, medical waste, animal products, paper, etc.
I can see one of these in every city. The more trash they have the more fuel they have. The Middle East can bite me. We won't need them. Gas will be .25 a gallon. It will be cheap. No power problems anymore because most of our power plants run on coal. No more landfill problems. etc.
The owner of Virgin airlines has just put up millions to the first scientist or group that solves the problem of pulling CO2 out of the air. We will probably have a solution to greenhouse gases and globle warming in 50 years at the most.
Combine that with some of the new advances in exhaust filters.
Personally I see the future as very bright.
The Navy just mounted a rail gun on a ship. It is working as of now! This is an 8 megajoule one. They are trying to create a 64 megajoule one. Rail guns are on the way but there is no reason for them to become personal scale anytime soon. The power requirements are obviously increadible.
I can see one of these in every city. The more trash they have the more fuel they have. The Middle East can bite me. We won't need them. Gas will be .25 a gallon. It will be cheap. No power problems anymore because most of our power plants run on coal. No more landfill problems. etc.
The owner of Virgin airlines has just put up millions to the first scientist or group that solves the problem of pulling CO2 out of the air. We will probably have a solution to greenhouse gases and globle warming in 50 years at the most.
Combine that with some of the new advances in exhaust filters.
Personally I see the future as very bright.
The Navy just mounted a rail gun on a ship. It is working as of now! This is an 8 megajoule one. They are trying to create a 64 megajoule one. Rail guns are on the way but there is no reason for them to become personal scale anytime soon. The power requirements are obviously increadible.
SR is dystiopia. All the advances that make things work better, simply didn't get invented. Things that make things work worse, were totally invented.
Seriously, you want all that, you are playing the wrong game. There are other sci-fi games out there.
Seriously, you want all that, you are playing the wrong game. There are other sci-fi games out there.
| QUOTE (Thain) |
| Where are the future fuel sources? Most cars in the nicer areas of the sprawl are electrical, or hybrid. In rural areas, solar is popular. |
...in Rigger III there are also Fuel Cell Electric vehicles that don't need to depend on Gridlink.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Where are the energy weapons like rail-guns and plasma rifles? |
...well in addition to the naval rail guns, Ares MP and Firelance Lasers, there is a sonic weapon (SOTA 64) and the Fichetti Pain Inducer (SR4) which projects a focused microwave beam. In the case of Plasma weapons, science has finally been able to maintain a stable fusion reaction on a large scale for power production. Getting it down to man portable size would require a massive leap in materials technology just for the shielding alone (a byproduct of hot fusion reactions is Tritium). More likely ship based Particle beams would be more of a reality. The Military has been experimenting with the concept for about the past two decades in RL. What I have seen in "Aviation Leak" has been eye opening however the power system requires a structure about as large as a five story apartment block to house it.
As people have mentioned, rail guns are definitely there. Back in the 2060s, the smallest ones weighed in at around 135kg (Aztech Xicohtencatl Light Railgun). Laser weapons exist, both in man-portable form and as vehicle weapons (like the Ares Firelance) with ranges up to 12 kilometers. And ship-based particle beams are indeed a reality in SR: the AN/EDQ-12 Air-Defense Naval Directed Energy Weapons System is specifically described as one in Rigger 3.
| QUOTE (Eleazar @ Feb 11 2007, 04:41 AM) |
| Shadowrun seems to have some problems when it comes to the future and what would actually be around in the year 2070. I am going to name a few things that just don't make sense to me and would like to hear what you think. |
Why are there still combustion engines that use gasoline?
Most don't, I believe. Within a city it is stated that electric vehicles can draw their power from the city grid. For those paranoid people, or those that need to go where the grid has broken down such as the barrens, then there is bio-fuel. This is one reason I have for all the food being soy-based and no meat. Too much of UCAS agriculture is taken up with growing fuel crops to allow other use.
Where are the future fuel sources?
Fusion is cannon and with a base on the moon, there's a good chance we're importing Helium-3 to fuel the process. This all goes into electricity which runs the cars etc as above and the rest of the city.
Why do guns work almost exactly work the way they do today?
Probably the same reason wheels do. Or how turbines work today. I'll expect Arsenal to introduce some more toys, though.
Why is friendly fire something I even have to worry about when using suppressive fire?
If you have a smartlink, then a GM may allow you to skip this based on fluff material in previous editions. Again, if Arsenal doesn't introduce something, then I may create it myself. The image of a steel lynx laying down a hail of bullets which you casually walk through toward the enemy is a cool one.
Why aren't guns electrically propelling the bullet with magnetic force?
It was tried. People started deploying drones that generated powerful fields to deflect the magnetically charged bullets. Okay, I'm kidding. Again there might be something in Arsenal, but I would guess that it is because guns are "good enough". Anything that threw bullets the way a conventional gun does would need (probably) a pretty hefty power pack. It's not just a matter of amount of power, but that you have to be able to discharge it in a tiny time frame. The bullets that you could throw might be more like flechette rounds which is obviously less popular in military application.
Where are the energy weapons like rail-guns and plasma rifles?
Rail guns aren't an "energy" weapon. I would guess these exist in space and on battleships. Plasma rifles? Too sci-fi. Might as well lob napalm at your enemy it'll have much greater range.
Why are there nuclear waste and toxic places like Glow City when we are on the verge of finding ways to reliably remove it ourselves?
Are we? I wasn't aware. But Glow City is the result of an accident. Once that's happened, cleaning it up would be a nightmare. And in the dystopian future of Shadowrun, it's just not cost effective to save those lives.
Where are the forcefields and teleportation devices?
Far in the future where they belong. Shadowrun is not a fantasy game as far as the technology goes. It's near future.
Where is all the cool SCIFI stuff that I can't think of right now, but would be here in 2070?
Matrix, cyberlimbs, simsense, bone lacing... Shadowrun is not Star Trek, it's Blade Runner!
Don't forget about the 29 Crash... A lot of scientific data/knowledge was lost because of it.
| QUOTE (Blade @ Feb 11 2007, 01:12 PM) |
| Don't forget about the 29 Crash... A lot of scientific data/knowledge was lost because of it. |
Very good point. Shadowrun has not been a happy world.
What will you do tonight?
A) Forage for food.
B) Struggle to raise your baby brother and keep him from the gangs.
C) Put to use that degree in Chemistry that you acquired just before Los Angeles was destroyed and do some studying by the light of the burning Stuffer Shack next door.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Where is all the cool SCIFI stuff that I can't think of right now, but would be here in 2070? |
In the SCIFI games.
Bye
Thanee
Thanks for the answers, everyone.
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||
Why are there still combustion engines that use gasoline? Most don't, I believe. Within a city it is stated that electric vehicles can draw their power from the city grid. For those paranoid people, or those that need to go where the grid has broken down such as the barrens, then there is bio-fuel. This is one reason I have for all the food being soy-based and no meat. Too much of UCAS agriculture is taken up with growing fuel crops to allow other use. Where are the future fuel sources? Fusion is cannon and with a base on the moon, there's a good chance we're importing Helium-3 to fuel the process. This all goes into electricity which runs the cars etc as above and the rest of the city. Why do guns work almost exactly work the way they do today? Probably the same reason wheels do. Or how turbines work today. I'll expect Arsenal to introduce some more toys, though. Why is friendly fire something I even have to worry about when using suppressive fire? If you have a smartlink, then a GM may allow you to skip this based on fluff material in previous editions. Again, if Arsenal doesn't introduce something, then I may create it myself. The image of a steel lynx laying down a hail of bullets which you casually walk through toward the enemy is a cool one. Why aren't guns electrically propelling the bullet with magnetic force? It was tried. People started deploying drones that generated powerful fields to deflect the magnetically charged bullets. Okay, I'm kidding. Again there might be something in Arsenal, but I would guess that it is because guns are "good enough". Anything that threw bullets the way a conventional gun does would need (probably) a pretty hefty power pack. It's not just a matter of amount of power, but that you have to be able to discharge it in a tiny time frame. The bullets that you could throw might be more like flechette rounds which is obviously less popular in military application. Where are the energy weapons like rail-guns and plasma rifles? Rail guns aren't an "energy" weapon. I would guess these exist in space and on battleships. Plasma rifles? Too sci-fi. Might as well lob napalm at your enemy it'll have much greater range. Why are there nuclear waste and toxic places like Glow City when we are on the verge of finding ways to reliably remove it ourselves? Are we? I wasn't aware. But Glow City is the result of an accident. Once that's happened, cleaning it up would be a nightmare. And in the dystopian future of Shadowrun, it's just not cost effective to save those lives. Where are the forcefields and teleportation devices? Far in the future where they belong. Shadowrun is not a fantasy game as far as the technology goes. It's near future. Where is all the cool SCIFI stuff that I can't think of right now, but would be here in 2070? Matrix, cyberlimbs, simsense, bone lacing... Shadowrun is not Star Trek, it's Blade Runner! |
Rail guns do exist in Sr, but they are on Main Battle Tanks. One of the Rigger books described the MBTs of the UCAS and CAS and mentioned the rail guns they carried. However, they appear nowhere else. They will probably always be ship or vehicle mounted weapons given their power requirements and weight.
What we might see are Electrothermal weapons. Those guns with special breeches that use an electrical pulse to generate either plasma or a steam burst to fire a bullet. The advantage is that the power can be precisely controlled giving steady thrust all the way through the barrel for the bullet. That could increase the velocity of the bullet by 50%. However, it is still experimental and I haven't heard anything about it in years. the last I heard it was being tested as a modification to feild artillery to provide more power to the conventional powder charge, by having the plasma injected to maintain pressure, or something like that. Must not have gone too well though. As with rail guns, power supply is the problem and it would be more complicated and less reliable than conventional guns.
As for the gasoline issue. There is a technology now that allows the conversion of carbon based wastes into oil. A few small scale test refineries are in operation around the country and it seems to work just fine. That could be part of the answer. So why the junkyards? Well, maybe the hybrid and electric engines and public transportation have cut demand, which means there is more garbage produced than is economically feasible to make into oil. Looking through the post I see Garrowolf has mentioned this too. Glad to see someone else is following that idea too.
The Sakura Fubuki fires electronically doesn't mention anything about a battery or how much charge it has.
Also, a lot of the technology hasn't happened because of magic coming back. A lot of researchers abandoned tech ideas when magic appeared, thinking that it would do something better.
And the Crash of '29 lost a lot of that information. It's possible that it might still be hidden somewhere in the Barrens or elsewhere in the world but it's up to the GM.
Also, a lot of the technology hasn't happened because of magic coming back. A lot of researchers abandoned tech ideas when magic appeared, thinking that it would do something better.
And the Crash of '29 lost a lot of that information. It's possible that it might still be hidden somewhere in the Barrens or elsewhere in the world but it's up to the GM.
The Sakura Fubuki, being very heavily based on real world Metal Storm weapons, functions on a wholly different principle than either rail-/coilguns or electrothermal-chemical guns. It only uses a tiny amount of electricity to ignite the primer in the stacked cartridges -- which is the exact same thing as happens in any smartgun which can be fired without pulling a trigger anyway, and works IRL with just an AA battery or such.
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| Rail guns do exist in Sr, but they are on Main Battle Tanks. One of the Rigger books described the MBTs of the UCAS and CAS and mentioned the rail guns they carried. However, they appear nowhere else. They will probably always be ship or vehicle mounted weapons given their power requirements and weight. |
...in the original Rigger Black Book there is reference to the Stonewall LAV. Though the "file" was portrayed as corrupted during the download, there was a hint that the main armament was a linear rail gun.
In an SR2 campaign (ca 2056) I introduced the IAI Masada heavy LAV that had a the equivalent of a light railgun as its main armament.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...in the original Rigger Black Book there is reference to the Stonewall LAV. Though the "file" was portrayed as corrupted during the download, there was a hint that the main armament was a linear rail gun. In an SR2 campaign (ca 2056) I introduced the IAI Masada heavy LAV that had a the equivalent of a light railgun as its main armament. |
Thanks, those are what I was thinking about.
I can't really add anything to what has already been said. But the Hydrogen Economy appears to have been overlooked. In my SR world, hydrogen fuel cells can run anything from commlinks to sports cars; the hydrogen being extracted from water via coal and nuclear power stations (gotta get that pollution and acid rain from somewhere!). Cars designed to run on petroleum oil have largely been converted to run on the above mentioned biodiesel.
The question of why so many synthetic foods has occured to me, but I figured that they were significantly cheaper and easier to produce, and many areas that had formerly been used in agriculture had either been reclaimed by nature during the Awakening, been exhausted of their nutrients, been polluted, or were situated on land now run by those environmental, back to nature types (you know who you are!)
I agree with some previous posters that teleporters, phasers and force fields (a la Star Trek) are not really in keeping with the genre SR is meant to represent.
The question of why so many synthetic foods has occured to me, but I figured that they were significantly cheaper and easier to produce, and many areas that had formerly been used in agriculture had either been reclaimed by nature during the Awakening, been exhausted of their nutrients, been polluted, or were situated on land now run by those environmental, back to nature types (you know who you are!)
I agree with some previous posters that teleporters, phasers and force fields (a la Star Trek) are not really in keeping with the genre SR is meant to represent.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| The question of why so many synthetic foods has occured to me, but I figured that they were significantly cheaper and easier to produce, and many areas that had formerly been used in agriculture had either been reclaimed by nature during the Awakening, been exhausted of their nutrients, been polluted, or were situated on land now run by those environmental, back to nature types (you know who you are!) |
Food is probably mostly soy and fake in SR because it cheaper to grow it that way. It would be much cheaper to grow huge amounts of soy that could then be processed into other things than growing a variety of crops. Fake meats and such would be easier and faster to vat grow and would take up much less space than traditional animals. Rather than being fed expensive corn or grain, vat meat could probably be fed sewage. Vat food would also be easier to produce in the heavily urbanized world of SR.
A lot of land is still open though. Figure the populations of the UCAS and CAS were by 20% or more by VITAS and other plagues. That would have freed up a fair amount of land. Urban sprawl would still be a problem in some places though. The question is what about the small farmer? Most farming is probably in the hands of the Megas, which would grow mostly soy for cheap food for the masses and other crops which, by growing less of it, they could charge a premium for. Small farmers could fill niche local markets for fresh food and so might actually do well, provided they could afford the taxes and the megas didn't decide to buy them up.
Pollution and such could be a problem, but a bigger problem overall would be Awakened pests. Just think about the damage a swarm of Awakened locusts could do to a farm state. Awakened groundhogs, moles, crows and other critters could also wreak havok on a field. Add in Awakened weeds and you've got all kinds of new problems. The weather also seems unstable, so that would definitely have an effect too.
Maybe there is a small group of awakened farmers who make rain when they need it and use wards to keep out all those magic pests?
I wonder if you could say that is still organic farming…
-Strobe
I wonder if you could say that is still organic farming…
-Strobe
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| Food is probably mostly soy and fake in SR because it cheaper to grow it that way. It would be much cheaper to grow huge amounts of soy that could then be processed into other things than growing a variety of crops. Fake meats and such would be easier and faster to vat grow and would take up much less space than traditional animals. Rather than being fed expensive corn or grain, vat meat could probably be fed sewage. Vat food would also be easier to produce in the heavily urbanized world of SR. |
Hehe. That reminds me of Transmetropolitan (which, incidentally, I use to give inspiration of how things might be in the SR world). Specifically the production of "long pig" for human consumption. Basically cloned humans for people that like the taste of people. Yummy.
| QUOTE (Strobe) |
| Maybe there is a small group of awakened farmers who make rain when they need it and use wards to keep out all those magic pests? I wonder if you could say that is still organic farming… -Strobe |
I don't know about wards and such, but if my shaman in older games needed to lie low, they would work for the organic farmers. They would mostly use spirits to help improve the soil and work in the natural fertilizers and water better than would otherwise happen. One could always create an insecticide spell that only worked on real insects, not the spirit kind. Definitely has to be area spell. Rain would require a great form spirit and hope you could control it so that it produced a gentle rain and not a raging storm.
That idea could work, though. A few acres, naturally grown food, a commerical kitchen to cook most of it into sauces and other higher value items to sell on the specialty market. They could probably do alright.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| Hehe. That reminds me of Transmetropolitan (which, incidentally, I use to give inspiration of how things might be in the SR world). Specifically the production of "long pig" for human consumption. Basically cloned humans for people that like the taste of people. Yummy. |
There's always Soylent Green.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| The Sakura Fubuki, being very heavily based on real world Metal Storm weapons, functions on a wholly different principle than either rail-/coilguns or electrothermal-chemical guns. It only uses a tiny amount of electricity to ignite the primer in the stacked cartridges -- which is the exact same thing as happens in any smartgun which can be fired without pulling a trigger anyway, and works IRL with just an AA battery or such. |
Converting it into something like the Sakura's Method of firing is not the kind of thing you just add on to a gun as easily as you do a smartgun system. I imagine the smartgun system simply pulls the trigger for you. Or activates the internal mechanism.
As for the food stuff. The life style tables give the impression that most people eat soy products with artificial flavors. At middle life style who have. "maybe even real food" Someone on the forum mentioned there character had an allergy to soy products which would be very common in SR.
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| Converting it into something like the Sakura's Method of firing is not the kind of thing you just add on to a gun as easily as you do a smartgun system. |
Obviously, but that's not what I was saying. I was pointing out that electronic ignition of primers happens in most smartguns and many non-smartguns anyway, and requires a minimal amount of electricity.
Electric ignition is simple and has, by SR4, been shown to work for 70 years. The smartgun system using an electric motor to depress the trigger (or otherwise engage the mechanical action) would require far more power and much more complex internal systems, and would make for a far longer response time from giving the mental command to fire to the bullet leaving the muzzle.
Though I was wrong about the AA battery: the EtronX actually uses a 9-volt battery.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I was pointing out that electronic ignition of primers happens in most smartguns and many non-smartguns anyway, and requires a minimal amount of electricity. |
Minimal amount. . . Hmm, they need to give us back the EMP grenade.
EMP might be able to fry the circuits of the weapon -- though these should be pretty easy to shield since they require no wireless connection -- but the primers themselves are far more insensitive. The EtronX uses a 150-volt current, extracted from the 9-volt battery, to ignite the primers, and inducing 150 volts into a piece of metal 1-3 inches long requires one massive EMP (a nuke detonated above 50km would do this marvellously, no idea how many kV/m other EMP weapons manage). They're supposed to be proof against electrostatic discharge as well.
| QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 11 2007, 12:11 PM) | ||
Are we? I wasn't aware. |
I don't think so.
| QUOTE (Oracle) |
| I don't think so. |
Of course we are... shoot them into orbit... out of sight, out of mind.
Bye
Thanee
You know, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea. I mean, there IS a giant super-furnace right down the block...
Yes, through bacteria and also some other means I am forgetting. I will link the articles if I find it.
March 07 Pop Science covers a machine that uses a plasma arc to convert anything except radioactives into hydrocarbon gases and molten glass. It even powers itself once it starts up. The escaping gas turns a turbine, powering the machine and providing exces power. Then you can convert the gases into more useful hydrocarbons for even more profit.
At an industrial scale, a 1/4 billion dollar plant would handle the garbage from a city of 1 million and pay for itself in 10 years from the excess power generated.
At an industrial scale, a 1/4 billion dollar plant would handle the garbage from a city of 1 million and pay for itself in 10 years from the excess power generated.
| QUOTE (cristomeyers) |
| You know, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea. I mean, there IS a giant super-furnace right down the block... |
So what's the cost per pound of payload to launch stuff into the sun? That times ~500,000,000 is what it'd take, at minimum (ie. ignoring containers, etc.), to get rid of most of the spent nuclear fuel we've got lying around right now.
It'd be pretty cool if one of the rockets blew up inside the atmosphere, too.
That same article from Pop Sci said that toxic waste was a lot easier to dispose of than nuclear, because with toxic waste, generally the _molecule_ is the hazard. Crack the molecule enough and the parts are harmless.
In nuclear waste, the _atom_ is the hazard.
In nuclear waste, the _atom_ is the hazard.
| QUOTE |
| So what's the cost per pound of payload to launch stuff into the sun? That times ~500,000,000 is what it'd take, at minimum (ie. ignoring containers, etc.), to get rid of most of the spent nuclear fuel we've got lying around right now. It'd be pretty cool if one of the rockets blew up inside the atmosphere, too. |
Never said is was a particularly plausible idea...
As I understand it, those furnace things to cook garbage have been in use in France since the 70's in one form or another. The article I read some 15 years ago was a tractor that bored into the mounds of garbage and dropped a contact into the hole and cooked the mess from the inside out. Of course, I don't think that was the actual system in use, only that a 'similar technique' was being used...
Great way to get rid of a lot of junk. As I understand it the carbonized remains are turned into asphalt...
Great way to get rid of a lot of junk. As I understand it the carbonized remains are turned into asphalt...
Here are two articles but there other groups other than the Stanford and German ones doing this. This is the bacteria method I mentioned
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...14/MN103893.DTL
http://www.physorg.com/news6046.html
Here is another method that shortens the halflife of certain isotopes making them decay at a much faster rate.
http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn...st-decades.html
The other method mentioned, the plasma torch, can be used on low-level radioactive waste.
The final method is creating a heck of a lot less radioactive waste by using Thorium instead of Uranium.
All of these methods would be considerably improved upon given 63 years into the future, especially with the advent of nanotechnology. I still can't find the other method I was referring to in my previous post. I remember seeing it in some technology magazine that had a dedicated article about new energy sources and safer nuclear technologies.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...14/MN103893.DTL
http://www.physorg.com/news6046.html
Here is another method that shortens the halflife of certain isotopes making them decay at a much faster rate.
http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn...st-decades.html
The other method mentioned, the plasma torch, can be used on low-level radioactive waste.
The final method is creating a heck of a lot less radioactive waste by using Thorium instead of Uranium.
All of these methods would be considerably improved upon given 63 years into the future, especially with the advent of nanotechnology. I still can't find the other method I was referring to in my previous post. I remember seeing it in some technology magazine that had a dedicated article about new energy sources and safer nuclear technologies.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| I can't really add anything to what has already been said. But the Hydrogen Economy appears to have been overlooked. In my SR world, hydrogen fuel cells can run anything from commlinks to sports cars; the hydrogen being extracted from water via coal and nuclear power stations (gotta get that pollution and acid rain from somewhere!). Cars designed to run on petroleum oil have largely been converted to run on the above mentioned biodiesel. |
...thank you. In my settings Hydrogen Fuel Cell power is also very prevalent, nd no where near has 'hamstrung' as it was made out to be in Rigger III. I have an entire line of vehicles, several watercraft, a lifting body LTA, and vehicular powerplants for conversion. There are also two major firms - Aeon Technologies and I-Motive - that are providers of H2 fuel cell vehicles, powerplants, linear and MHD propulsion systems. They also subcontract to with several other firms in the transportation mfg industry to provide Fuel Cell systems for an array of platforms from speedboats, to road trains, to UDF (unducted fan) aircraft, and even a light naval attack cruiser.
In RL I have done study on H2 fuel cells for transportation applications.
Just a comment on Hydrogen power and internal combustion engines.
There is no great feat of engineering to create a hydrogen powered vehicle. ICE's will run on anything that will burn, the sole issue becomes one of 'how much fuel in the cylinder'. Obviously, in order to run an ICE off of wood, you'd need fairly massive cylinders and an incredibly slow cyclic rate, you'd be better of harnessing steam at that point.
But Hydrogen is easy. Take a standard, petroleum powered engine (non-diesel works better for this by a country mile as I understand it) and change the flow valves, run liquid hydrogen from an insulated tank into the cylinders as regular fuel and you are actually good to go (changing the oxygen flow is assumed to be a part of this process...). The difficulty currently exprienced is our society is a bit gunshy about pure hydrogen as fuel, as it is considerably more likely to explod then petrol. So now you have ineffeicent fuel cell technologies that convert hydrogen into a reasonable stable solid, then release it at a controlled rate into the engines. I suspect the engines in question are rather more complex that strictly necessary to keep the fuel effiency further in the red just to maintain a monopoly on petrol fuels. But I'm a cynic.
There is no great feat of engineering to create a hydrogen powered vehicle. ICE's will run on anything that will burn, the sole issue becomes one of 'how much fuel in the cylinder'. Obviously, in order to run an ICE off of wood, you'd need fairly massive cylinders and an incredibly slow cyclic rate, you'd be better of harnessing steam at that point.
But Hydrogen is easy. Take a standard, petroleum powered engine (non-diesel works better for this by a country mile as I understand it) and change the flow valves, run liquid hydrogen from an insulated tank into the cylinders as regular fuel and you are actually good to go (changing the oxygen flow is assumed to be a part of this process...). The difficulty currently exprienced is our society is a bit gunshy about pure hydrogen as fuel, as it is considerably more likely to explod then petrol. So now you have ineffeicent fuel cell technologies that convert hydrogen into a reasonable stable solid, then release it at a controlled rate into the engines. I suspect the engines in question are rather more complex that strictly necessary to keep the fuel effiency further in the red just to maintain a monopoly on petrol fuels. But I'm a cynic.
If you are wanting to get rid of garbage then go the Total Conversion Process route. I think I heard about some technologies connected with attempts at fusion to make use of radioactive waste. There is also medical technologies that are working with radioactives so we may get to a point that all this radioactive waste becomes radioative gold!
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Just a comment on Hydrogen power and internal combustion engines. There is no great feat of engineering to create a hydrogen powered vehicle. ICE's will run on anything that will burn, the sole issue becomes one of 'how much fuel in the cylinder'. Obviously, in order to run an ICE off of wood, you'd need fairly massive cylinders and an incredibly slow cyclic rate, you'd be better of harnessing steam at that point. But Hydrogen is easy. Take a standard, petroleum powered engine (non-diesel works better for this by a country mile as I understand it) and change the flow valves, run liquid hydrogen from an insulated tank into the cylinders as regular fuel and you are actually good to go (changing the oxygen flow is assumed to be a part of this process...). The difficulty currently exprienced is our society is a bit gunshy about pure hydrogen as fuel, as it is considerably more likely to explod then petrol. So now you have ineffeicent fuel cell technologies that convert hydrogen into a reasonable stable solid, then release it at a controlled rate into the engines. I suspect the engines in question are rather more complex that strictly necessary to keep the fuel effiency further in the red just to maintain a monopoly on petrol fuels. But I'm a cynic. |
actually, you can't convert an unmodified gas engine to run on hydrogen--the differences in design considerations is just too great.
Just take the engine out and use paranormal hamsters!
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| Just take the engine out and use paranormal hamsters! |
Hey, those are registered voters you're talking about.
Sure you can. Note you need a liquid state hydrogen to make it work because of those design considerations.
Most ICE's are just highly specialized versions of a'multifuel' engines. Any volatile liquid can be fed into them, the real art is gettign the mix right. effiency is an issue, but really what you actually burn isn't.
There would be, however, some minor parts swaps involved. The real trick, my friend, is getting a decent source of liquid hydrogen.
Most ICE's are just highly specialized versions of a'multifuel' engines. Any volatile liquid can be fed into them, the real art is gettign the mix right. effiency is an issue, but really what you actually burn isn't.
There would be, however, some minor parts swaps involved. The real trick, my friend, is getting a decent source of liquid hydrogen.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| All of these methods would be considerably improved upon given 63 years into the future, especially with the advent of nanotechnology. |
Those articles are interesting, but really short. And the research into those bacteria is in a much too early state to be called even a possible method for nuclear waste removal.
Okay, not the same thing you guys are talking about, but in an article in the most recent IEEE(Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) magazine, Spectrum, there was an article on how the French have been recycling nuclear fuel for a while now. Obviously, not the same as cleaning up contaminated sites, but I thought it might add to the discussion.
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/feb07/4891
*EDIT*
And also, until we can create launch systems that have an incredibly low failure rate, lofting radiactive waste into the upper atmosphere on top of a crap-ton of rocket fuel is a Bad Idea, in my opinion. As soon as we get a dependable space elevator, or laser powered launch vehicles, where there's a lot less to go wrong, I'm all for throwing garbage into the sun, but given the current failure rate of our aging shuttle fleet, and the untested(and unbuilt) nature of the new heavy lifter rockets(Ares, i believe they're called?) Waste in Space™ is a no-no.
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/feb07/4891
*EDIT*
And also, until we can create launch systems that have an incredibly low failure rate, lofting radiactive waste into the upper atmosphere on top of a crap-ton of rocket fuel is a Bad Idea, in my opinion. As soon as we get a dependable space elevator, or laser powered launch vehicles, where there's a lot less to go wrong, I'm all for throwing garbage into the sun, but given the current failure rate of our aging shuttle fleet, and the untested(and unbuilt) nature of the new heavy lifter rockets(Ares, i believe they're called?) Waste in Space™ is a no-no.
I'm almost finished with the issue of Pop Sci, but I read that article a couple of days ago. Really interesting stuff.
I can think of several problems with liquid hydrogen running in an unmodified multi fuel ICE 1) The temperature of the fuel will lead to a quick breakdown of the engine, due to increased brittleness in parts, and a lower viscosity because of said temperature in engine lubricants, 2) Maintaining it in a liquid state will require a constant refrigerant effect in spite of insulated tanks (have fun when the battery dies and the car goes boom), 3) The gaskets in engine are not designed to operate under the temperatures that using liquid hydrogen would require, and lastly getting enough oxygen into the engine to feed the reaction would be a bitch. Even if you constructed one specifically to run on liquid hydrogen it would be unsafe due prolonged storage issues, and impractical because in energy content it would require 4 liters of liquid hydrogen to gain the same amount of energy as 1 liter of gasoline.
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