 Twink Tank, Mine name is Twink! |
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 Feb 27 2007, 01:30 AM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813  |
i'd probably point out the rules for called shots to them, and let them choose which they want to do. they can either target "an unarmored spot" or "a more vulnerable spot" (kinda broken, that second one, but a good way to represent shooting someone in the head i guess). |
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Feb 27 2007, 01:35 AM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I'd guess it's something like "I'm going to try to shoot him in the head." "Okay, roll at -8" "Two hits" "He critically glitched. So you take him square between the eyes. Roll damage, add 16 dice." |
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Feb 27 2007, 02:40 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Player1: "I'm going to shoot him in the head." GM: "You can try. He's wearing an armor jacket so take a -8 modifier." Player1: "2 hits." GM: "OK you got 1 net hit after he tried to duck out of the way. What's the damage?" Player1: "I'm using my Pred with regular ammo so 7P." GM: <rolls body and gets 2 hits> "You don't hit him in the head, but you do manage to find a weak point in the armor at the shoulder as he yells out in pain." If that was a head shot, it wouldn't make sense for him to only take 5 boxes of damage, and an instant kill would be too powerful. Players would ONLY take head shots if they could get instant kills and negate their damage track that way. |
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Feb 27 2007, 02:41 AM
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#29
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,105 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
OK, here's a quiz, folks. I just played a Troll of mine named 'Tank' in a convention demo game on the weekend.
See if you can figure out how he had an armor rating of 25B/23I and a BOD for damage resistance of 16 ==> damage resitance dice pool of 41/39. He is so-so in shooting skill, but it's the last one standing that counts. Yes, he is boring as hell to play until the shooting starts, but when it does.... |
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Feb 27 2007, 03:54 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Yeah, the augmented skill is limited to skill x 1.5 (round down), so the two points of improved ability and the reflex recorder max him out. the gunslinger adept is twinked (maxed out in a particular skill) rather than min-maxed (maximum bang for the buck, with the minimum downsides to it). Obviously, if he got rid of the Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute qualities, and dropped his base Agility and base firearm skill both down to 6, he would still be tough in his specialty, but he would have 73 more build points to spend on being more versatile in other areas. I've checked the FAQ and the Erratta, and can't find anything allowing mentor spirits for adepts. I probably gave the pornomancer a mentor spirit after reading "Members of any tradition may have mentor spirits, including adepts," on pg. 192, which makes it seem like adetps can get mentor spirits. But the description of the quality on pg. 79 says "This quality is only available to characters with either the Magician or Mystic Adept quality." But on the positive side, maybe now that the pornomancer has been whittled down to a mere, piddly 32 dice, people will stop complaining about how broken it is. :D |
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Feb 27 2007, 03:58 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Everyone ignores him, because he has insane armor, and can't do much offensively? ;) |
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Feb 27 2007, 04:56 AM
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#32
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,105 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Well, by so-so I mean he only has a dice pool of 11 with machine guns. With his gyro stabilizer, he gets two bursts with his Ingram White Knight and no recoil modifier. Someone will get hurt. As for ignoring him... OK, so the rest of the team tosses him in the room and waits for the dust to settle. Or uses him as partial cover. I'm not saying he's the be-all and end-all. It's just fun to see such a monster in play once in a while. |
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Feb 27 2007, 05:08 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
the first one I'd disagree with pretty much forever, the second is situation if the guy glitched, the third is most agreeable, and that's how I run it (I also make them take an additional -4 for a more vital location) a grazing shot or a major villian with a cyberskull I can have the bullet ricochet off the metal... but that's all artistic license. pbangarth: okay I'll bite... you can't get 41 dice a chargen, how'd that troll do it? |
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Feb 27 2007, 05:31 AM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
Wouldn't said troll be rolling negative dice in almost every situation? I mean even assuming he has the troll max body of 15, he'd still have -6 on all reaction and agility related tests. As I doubt he has that much body since outside of magic I don't think it is possible to get that much(possible to get higher for damage resistance tests but for actual body I don't see how) the negative modifiers would be even higher.
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Feb 27 2007, 08:36 AM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Some types of armor, such as mystic armor, orthoskin, and sustained armor spells, don't count towards that encumbrance.
Anyways, probably several ways to do it, but here's how I got it: Body: base of 10, has the Toughness, Mystic Adept and Mentor Spirit: Bear Qualities, 2 Adept Power Points spent to raise Body by one, and Aluminum Bone Lacing, for 16 Body dice. For armor: add Orthoskin: 3 (this and the bone lacing will lower Magic from 6 to 4), Mystic Armor: 4, 1 remaining point spent on Magician abilities, and a Sustaining Focus: 2 for an Armor spell at Force: 2 (overcast, but the Drain won't be too hard to soak), get natural troll dermal armor, plus a point of impact from the bone lacing - that's 10/11 so far - and top it off with an Armor Jacket, Helmet, and Ballistic Shield, adding 15 to Ballistic and 12 to Impact, for a final score of 25/23. You know, another advantage of this build is that you can take counterspelling, so even spells wouldn't be that effective against this character. |
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Feb 27 2007, 10:40 AM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 28-June 06 From: Sol System, Earth, Europe, Germany, Saxony Member No.: 8,796 |
isn't the combat sytsem of SR all about being abstracct? thing is, even if the players says: "i shoot the guy", everybody knows, that this means: he tries to shoot the guy and wishes to make a test.
same goes for the "headshot". he aims for the head of the guy, nothing more. if he hits, he hits the guy,first and foremost, not necessary the head. if he gets to to do enough damage, then a likely outcome would be indeed a hit between the eyes. what does the -8 modifier mean (sticking with an armor of 8)? for the shooter it means that he has a (much) harder time to aim (because there is so much armor - the target ist rather small, ...). and for the target? he cannot use his 8 dice of armor, when being hit - so he likely will take more damage. so what? btw: to the tank troll above: if you take orthoskin, isn't the natural dermal armor of the troll negated? or do i confuse that with dermal armor (the cyber)? |
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Feb 27 2007, 01:39 PM
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#37
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,105 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Cool idea about the Counterspelling, Glyph. I have another version which IS fun to roleplay - an adept troll from Russia who balances both magic resistance and mystic armor powers. His name is Oro (from Japanese anime responses to seeing incomprehensibly strange things ... on his way to N. America through Japan, many who saw him said "Oro??") and he liked the name.
Here's how I did the 41 dice pool for damage resistance Troll: Armor Ballistic Impact ==== ===== ===== mystic armor(6) 6 6 orthoskin(3) 3 3 bone lacing(alum.) -- 1 troll natural 1 1 armor jacket 8 6 helmet 1 2 ballistic shield 6 4 --- --- 25 23 BOD for damage resistance ================== BOD 9 toughness Quality 1 bone lacing(alum.) 2 bone density(4) 4 --- 16 The internal modifications do not count toward encumbrance, so the BOD of 9 is more than enough. The ballistic shield DOES have a -1 dice pool modifier for other actions, such as shooting. For this character, that is a sensible tradeoff. One could actually increase the dice pool a bit, but at the expense of REALLY draining the other attributes even more than they have been. |
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Feb 27 2007, 02:35 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
I thought that was how the encumbrance worked but I can't find the specific ruling in the book. Could one of you point out the page number that states encumberance is unaffected by internal/magical/natural armors?
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Feb 27 2007, 02:52 PM
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#39
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,105 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Here's an email I got form the Shadowrun Helpline on this issue: (Responses are marked out with asterisks_ ***** Hi Peter, ***** > I sent this message quite a while ago, and as you guys are usually quick in your responses, I wonder if the message got lost. It could be that it is a difficult question, and you need time to figure it out, and if so please forgive me for bothering you with this repeat send. ***** No, I just haven't gotten around to answering yet. I'll take a quick shot at it here. ***** I understand how the calculation for BOD, AGI and STR works for determining the average values for those Attributes in a character. It is not clear to me how armor works. There seem to be two options to deal with it. Does either of them apply? 1) ARMOR IN INCREMENTS In a character who is not cybered, wearing an armored vest, which covers only the torso, gives that character an armor value equal to that of the vest. Covering only the head with a helmet adds to the armor rating of the individual, rather than requiring an averaging calculation. A small shield does the same. It would seem, then, that adding armor to a cyberlimb would also increment the overall armor rating of the character, rather than requiring an average to be calculated. Particularly if only one cyberlimb had armor, and the other limbs, cyber- or otherwise, did not, an averaging would require using a value of 0 for those limbs in the calculation. ***** The way it was intentioned, IIRC, was that cyberlimb armor really only applied when that particular limb was targeted with an attack (like a called shot, or only that part of the person isn't behind cover). So it doesn't normally get added to the character's overall Armor rating. This was partly for simplicity. It's a bit different from helmets and shields because helmets cover a more vital area and shields cover more of the body. I can see an argument for adding at least part of the value in, however, so I would allow it. In that case, I'd add the average Armor value, though (using non-armored limbs as a 0). ***** 2) ‘NATURAL’ ARMOR Following that idea of the value of 0 for unarmored limbs, worn armor adds onto an averaged natural body armor of 0, which could be augmented by cyberlimbs. Only after the average ‘natural’ armor value is calculated is the worn armor value added. This would then pretty well require all five cyberlimbs to be armored before it would have any effect. ***** Cyberlimb armor should be treated as "natural" and not worn armor, yeah. ***** B)) If cyberlimbs have armor enhancement, is it reasonable to presume that this armor value is considered ‘internal’, and therefore does not count in the encumbrance calculation on p.149 of SR4? ***** Correct. I hope that helps :) :: Rob Boyle :: Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com ***** In my question above I assumed armor would have to be distributed, but the averaging takes into account lack of distribution (eg. armor of 0 for a limb that has none), so one could pack armor into the legs for example, and get an average value of 1 or 2 for the whole body. |
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Feb 27 2007, 02:57 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Couple responses. BBB, Pg. 187 "Many adept powers may be purchased at a variable rating. The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute." Your adept has 2 points of cyberware at least (assuming alphaware), and I think is a mystic adept. So his max magic is 4, or possibly 3. It's not entirely clear whether that magic refers to his "adept" magic or his total, but either way, Mystic Armor 6 isn't allowed. Many GMs also will not allow Bone Lacing and Bone Density to stack. SR4's stacking rules aren't nearly as defined as, say, d20's, but many people rule that similar bonuses from the cyber and bio side don't stack. On the flip side, it's often called out if they don't, so there's nothing strictly prohibiting that. Glpyh's Troll had an LMG and a Ballistic Shield - if either of your GMs are letting you use the ballistic shield and a LMG at the same time, he's being....overly generous. If you've convinced him that the troll can one hand the shield, and then one hand the gyromounted LMG as well, more power to ya! |
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Feb 27 2007, 05:44 PM
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#41
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,105 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Well, damn. I don't mind being mistaken, but the Magic Attribute limit is really an obvious one. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. That's why laying things out for a thousand eyes to see works. So, because his Magic rating is reduced to 3, he can't have mystic armor past rating 3. As consolation, that leaves a point and a half of Adept Power to spend elsewhere, such as in Attribute Boost, which with Magic 3 and Boost 3 would *on average* give 2 more points of BOD for a few combat turns. And, yes, I could still rob some of the other pitiful Attrributes to make his BOD better. Bone density augmentation works on the molecular matrix of the bones and on the ligaments. Bone lacing weaves extra material through whatever bone matrix is there. I don't see any reason to challenge the BBB for not making these two exclusive. Maybe a case could be made that density augmentation couldn't come after lacing. I don't know. Gyro stabilization is a harness with an arm ending in a weapon mount. That serves as the second support for the machine gun along with the firing arm/hand. (We don't have to talk about trying to run around a corner while wearing a gyromount, do we?) I do not know of any shield in any time period or from any culture that was not designed to be manipulable by one hand/arm, except *maybe* those used by 'shield bearers'. None of the Shadowrun shields are labelled as such. Any shield usable by a human should be no problem for a troll. |
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Feb 27 2007, 10:00 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
Though it isn't specifically in the book, the FAQ states that while you can have both bone lacing and density augmentation only the highest bonus would stack. So with Aluminum and bone density 4 as per the FAQ you'd have a +4 to body and a +1 to impact armor. That being said many don't follow the FAQ and it is entirely up to your group.
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Feb 28 2007, 12:27 AM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Um get yourself a voodooist and go bat shit crazy. 5 points of harden armour go a long way.
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Feb 28 2007, 03:32 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The only problem with Boosted Body is that Attribute Boost is specifically not compatible with any other attribute augmentation, with the exception of Improved Physical Attribute.
On the shields for my first troll character, I pictured him using them more with the grenade laucher, but I wouldn't see a problem using them with the LMG, either, considering that the LMG is mounted on an articulated arm in the gyro-harness. I don't always agree with the FAQ. My worst disagreement is their statement that Reaction Enhancers are no longer compatible with Wired Reflexes - never mind that they always have been before. :S |
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Feb 28 2007, 03:05 PM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-November 05 Member No.: 7,941 |
I'm a newb and haven't tweaked with the system enough so help and suggestions encouraged. Here's my attempt and sorry for the spam:
Metatype : Troll Mundane BP Breakdown: Stats: 200 BP Race: 40 BP Edge: 10 BP Mundane: 0 BP Skills: 112 BP Know./Lang. Points: 15 BP Positive Qualities: 10 BP Negative Qualities: -20 BP Resources: 40 BP =Attributes= Body: 8 Agility: 4 (6) Reaction: 5 (7) Strength: 7 Charisma: 2 Intuition: 3 Logic: 2 Willpower: 5 Edge: 2 Initiative: 10/3 passes Essence:.83 =Active Skills= Close Combat: 3 Firearms: 3 (4) Dodge : 3 Intimidation: 2 Heavy Weapons: 3 (4) Armorer: 2 Perception: 3 =Knowledge Skills= English : N Spanish: 3 Firearms: 3 Street Drugs:3 Black Markets: 3 Positive Qualities Toughness Negative Qualities Addiction, Mild: Cram SINner Criminal Cyberwares Cosmetic Modification (Basic): Cyber Tats Datajack Cybereyes Basic System (Rating 3) + Eye Recording Unit (Free) + Image Link (Free) + Flare Compensation + Low-Light Vision + Smartlink + Thermographic Vision + Vision Enhancement (Rating 2) + Vision Magnification Cyberears (Rating 3) + Ear Recording Unit (Free) + Sound Link (Free) + Audio Enhancement (Rating 2) + Balance Augmenter + Damper + Select Sound Filter (Rating 2) + Spatial Recognizer Wired Reflexes (Rating 2) Biowares Muscle Toner 2 Orthoskin 1 Reflex Recorder: Heavy Weapons Reflex Recorder: Firearms Group And I'll have 8 BPs for contacts and about 57k in money left to buy things. So tell me what you think or can suggest. |
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Mar 1 2007, 03:46 AM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Some character types, such as hackers, require lots of skill points. Combat characters, though, are generally better off starting out as specialists, not generalists. For combat skills, I would drop the expensive skill groups. You need heavy weapons, another ranged skill such as pistols or throwing weapons, unarmed combat, and maybe another close combat skill such as blades or clubs. Get one at 6 or two at 5, and the rest at 4, and get specializations for at least the main combat skills.
With the points you save, improve your Edge, a vital and incredibly useful Attribute. If the point savings can't get it to 5, consider sacrificing the Toughness quality for more Edge. Might want to re-think that Criminal SIN quality. For a face or hacker, it can be a nuisance. For a hulking, heavily augmented troll who makes his living with a machine gun, it can be a nightmare. Looks like you still have 3 free skill points left to get for Knowledge Skills. Other than that, lots of stuff you did right. Strength as an odd number, Agility soft-maxed with muscle toner, soft-maxed Reaction, and 3 initiative passes. Cyber and Bio recommendations: Get two reflex recorders, for your main ranged and close combat skills, instead of for the groups. With the savings, get muscle augmentation: 2 and a platelet factory, or change your dodge skill to gymnastics, and get synthcardium: 3 for 3 more dice. Your character will probably always block or parry in melee, so he only needs dodge for ranged full defense, which gymnastics is just as good at, in addition to things like balance and jumping. |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:59 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
I think that a Troll can not take orthoskin (or dermal armor) because of his own natural dermal armor...
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Mar 2 2007, 08:46 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-November 05 Member No.: 7,941 |
Updated Twinky Troll
Metatype : Troll Mundane BP Breakdown: Stats: 200 BP Race: 40 BP Edge: 10 BP Mundane: 0 BP Skills: 98 BP Know./Lang. Points: 15 BP Positive Qualities: 10 BP Negative Qualities: -25 BP Resources: 50 BP =Attributes= Body: 8 Agility: 4 (6) Reaction: 5 (7) Strength: 7 (9) Charisma: 2 Intuition: 3 Logic: 2 Willpower: 5 Edge: 5 Initiative: 10/3 passes Essence: 1.58 =Active Skills= Unarmed Combat: 3 Firearms Group: 3 (4) Gymnastics : 3 Intimidation: 2 Heavy Weapons: 3 (4) Perception: 3 =Knowledge Skills= English : N Spanish: 3 Firearms: 3 Street Drugs:3 Black Markets: 3 Positive Qualities Toughness Negative Qualities Addiction, Mild Allergy, Common & Mild SINner (Standard) Cyberwares Cosmetic Modification (Basic): Cyber Tats Datajack Cybereyes Basic System (Rating 3) + Eye Recording Unit (Free) + Image Link (Free) + Flare Compensation + Low-Light Vision + Smartlink + Thermographic Vision + Vision Enhancement (Rating 2) + Vision Magnification Cyberears (Rating 3) + Ear Recording Unit (Free) + Sound Link (Free) + Audio Enhancement (Rating 2) + Balance Augmenter + Damper + Select Sound Filter (Rating 2) + Spatial Recognizer Wired Reflexes (Rating 2, AlphaGrade) Internal Air Tank Biowares Muscle Toner 2 Orthoskin 1 Reflex Recorder: Heavy Weapons Reflex Recorder: Firearms Group Platelet Factories Synthacardium Muscle Augmentation 2 Still have 9 BPS for contacts left. Again, pick him apart and comments please. On page 153 it states that troll natural armor can stack with dermal and orthoskin so that's why I went with it. |
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Mar 4 2007, 06:20 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
How did you manage to get an edge of 5 for only 10BP?
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Mar 4 2007, 07:29 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
His breakdown doesn't match his stats. From looking at the character, I get:
BP Breakdown: Stats: 200 BP Race: 40 BP Edge: 40 BP Mundane: 0 BP Skills: 96 BP Know./Lang. Points: 15 Free Skill Points (he still only spent 12, though) Positive Qualities: 10 BP Negative Qualities: -20 BP Resources: 50 BP Contacts: 9 BP TOTAL: 435 BP He didn't tell us how many points he is starting with, so maybe it's a 435 point game. :? |
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