lol I'd slap a player with the BBB if they did that and thought their armor was actually 11 because of their hands and feet (no offense). Examples like these are exactly why I like my cyberlimb houserules

Player 1: "I'm going to shoot him in the head."
GM: "he's wearing a jacket that only covers his arms and chest so -8 to your roll."
Player 1: "okay."

Player 2: "I'm going to shoot him in the head."
GM: "he's wearing a Long coat that covers his arms, chest, abdomen and his legs...in fact the only thing that is not covered by his armor is his head and so there is a -6 to your roll."
Player 2: "wha?"

so cyberlimb armor doesn't make sense to you but that does?

I would describe it differently, and I'm assuming you mean an armored jacket in the first, and a lined coat in the second example

Player 1: "I'm going to shoot him in the head"
GM: "Alright, he is wearing a somewhat bulky jacket with a slightly stiffened padded collar that blocks some of his head take -8"


Player 2: "I'm going to shoot his friend in the head"
GM: "Alright, his friend is wearing a longer coat that extends beyond his waist, it seems less padded and the collars block less of his face/head from your sights take -6"


Player3: "I'm going to shoot the naked troll in the chest."
GM: "Alright. On said troll you see bumps that look like dermal plating, and he has 2 cybernetic hands, and 2 cybernetic feet, and the mage sends you a subvocal message saying said troll has mystic protection, take -11"

As it is with just the mystic armor 4, troll skin, and dermal plating 2 you have a base of 7 armor adding in 4 more in such a way seems... excessive to me.

which seems most outlandish?

Armor jackets and lined coats cover up a lot of area, including vital organs. Cyber hands and feet adding overall protection equal to an armor jacket is ridiculous. It's hard to die from a foot/hand injury, relative to getting shot in the stomach, lung, or major artery.

I think I'd allow a single point of armor for each full limb (not averaged, I hate averaged cyberlimb stats), but nothing more. I already houserule that torsos can have rating 6 armor and skulls can have 2.

I also don't allow called shots to the head. Players can negate armor by taking that penalty, but it wouldn't make much sense to get shot in the head and live. I abstract the shot after I see how well they roll and how well the target resists the damage. If the damage is enough to kill the target, THEN I'll say you shot him in the head.

If we're going for pure number of dice, drop Agility down to 7 rather than 8. Take those 35 points, roll 25 in to magic 6, purchase 2 more points of improved pistols. That drops melee by 1, but ups pistols by 1.

But yes, you need to go SMGs. There are a number of fully automatic one-handed SMGs. With 5 of your 10 spare bps, pick up Ambidexterity - that way you can have an SMG in both hands, and not worry about uncompensated recoil, or you can have a katana in one hand and an SMG in the other, and not worry about where you are.

(Note: I don't fully grasped the limiter rules on additional dice, so this might not work - if so, let me know).

is this what would happen if a player wanted to make a called shot to the head?

Player 1: "I'm going to shoot him in the head."
GM: "you can't."
Player 1: "why not?"
GM: "because I said so."

i'd probably point out the rules for called shots to them, and let them choose which they want to do. they can either target "an unarmored spot" or "a more vulnerable spot" (kinda broken, that second one, but a good way to represent shooting someone in the head i guess).

I'd guess it's something like "I'm going to try to shoot him in the head."

"Okay, roll at -8"

"Two hits"

"He critically glitched. So you take him square between the eyes. Roll damage, add 16 dice."

Player1: "I'm going to shoot him in the head."
GM: "You can try. He's wearing an armor jacket so take a -8 modifier."
Player1: "2 hits."
GM: "OK you got 1 net hit after he tried to duck out of the way. What's the damage?"
Player1: "I'm using my Pred with regular ammo so 7P."
GM: <rolls body and gets 2 hits> "You don't hit him in the head, but you do manage to find a weak point in the armor at the shoulder as he yells out in pain."

If that was a head shot, it wouldn't make sense for him to only take 5 boxes of damage, and an instant kill would be too powerful. Players would ONLY take head shots if they could get instant kills and negate their damage track that way.

Yeah, the augmented skill is limited to skill x 1.5 (round down), so the two points of improved ability and the reflex recorder max him out.

the gunslinger adept is twinked (maxed out in a particular skill) rather than min-maxed (maximum bang for the buck, with the minimum downsides to it). Obviously, if he got rid of the Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute qualities, and dropped his base Agility and base firearm skill both down to 6, he would still be tough in his specialty, but he would have 73 more build points to spend on being more versatile in other areas.


I've checked the FAQ and the Erratta, and can't find anything allowing mentor spirits for adepts. I probably gave the pornomancer a mentor spirit after reading "Members of any tradition may have mentor spirits, including adepts," on pg. 192, which makes it seem like adetps can get mentor spirits. But the description of the quality on pg. 79 says "This quality is only available to characters with either the Magician or Mystic Adept quality."

But on the positive side, maybe now that the pornomancer has been whittled down to a mere, piddly 32 dice, people will stop complaining about how broken it is.

Everyone ignores him, because he has insane armor, and can't do much offensively?

Well, by so-so I mean he only has a dice pool of 11 with machine guns. With his gyro stabilizer, he gets two bursts with his Ingram White Knight and no recoil modifier. Someone will get hurt. As for ignoring him... OK, so the rest of the team tosses him in the room and waits for the dust to settle. Or uses him as partial cover.

I'm not saying he's the be-all and end-all. It's just fun to see such a monster in play once in a while.

the first one I'd disagree with pretty much forever, the second is situation if the guy glitched, the third is most agreeable, and that's how I run it (I also make them take an additional -4 for a more vital location) a grazing shot or a major villian with a cyberskull I can have the bullet ricochet off the metal... but that's all artistic license.

pbangarth: okay I'll bite... you can't get 41 dice a chargen, how'd that troll do it?

Here's an email I got form the Shadowrun Helpline on this issue: (Responses are marked out with asterisks_

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Hi Peter,
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> I sent this message quite a while ago, and as you guys are usually quick in your responses, I wonder if the message got lost. It could be that it is a difficult question, and you need time to figure it out, and if so please forgive me for bothering you with this repeat send.

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No, I just haven't gotten around to answering yet. I'll take a quick shot at it here.
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I understand how the calculation for BOD, AGI and STR works for determining the average values for those Attributes in a character. It is not clear to me how armor works. There seem to be two options to deal with it. Does either of them apply?

1) ARMOR IN INCREMENTS

In a character who is not cybered, wearing an armored vest, which covers only the torso, gives that character an armor value equal to that of the vest. Covering only the head with a helmet adds to the armor rating of the individual, rather than requiring an averaging calculation. A small shield does the same. It would seem, then, that adding armor to a cyberlimb would also increment the overall armor rating of the character, rather than requiring an average to be calculated.

Particularly if only one cyberlimb had armor, and the other limbs, cyber- or otherwise, did not, an averaging would require using a value of 0 for those limbs in the calculation.

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The way it was intentioned, IIRC, was that cyberlimb armor really only applied when that particular limb was targeted with an attack (like a called shot, or only that part of the person isn't behind cover). So it doesn't normally get added to the character's overall Armor rating. This was partly for simplicity. It's a bit different from helmets and shields because helmets cover a more vital area and shields cover more of the body.

I can see an argument for adding at least part of the value in, however, so I would allow it. In that case, I'd add the average Armor value, though (using non-armored limbs as a 0).
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2) ‘NATURAL’ ARMOR

Following that idea of the value of 0 for unarmored limbs, worn armor adds onto an averaged natural body armor of 0, which could be augmented by cyberlimbs. Only after the average ‘natural’ armor value is calculated is the worn armor value added. This would then pretty well require all five cyberlimbs to be armored before it would have any effect.

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Cyberlimb armor should be treated as "natural" and not worn armor, yeah.
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B))
If cyberlimbs have armor enhancement, is it reasonable to presume that this armor value is considered ‘internal’, and therefore does not count in the encumbrance calculation on p.149 of SR4?

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Correct.

I hope that helps


:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com
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In my question above I assumed armor would have to be distributed, but the averaging takes into account lack of distribution (eg. armor of 0 for a limb that has none), so one could pack armor into the legs for example, and get an average value of 1 or 2 for the whole body.

Couple responses.

BBB, Pg. 187

"Many adept powers may be purchased at a variable rating. The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute."

Your adept has 2 points of cyberware at least (assuming alphaware), and I think is a mystic adept. So his max magic is 4, or possibly 3. It's not entirely clear whether that magic refers to his "adept" magic or his total, but either way, Mystic Armor 6 isn't allowed.

Many GMs also will not allow Bone Lacing and Bone Density to stack. SR4's stacking rules aren't nearly as defined as, say, d20's, but many people rule that similar bonuses from the cyber and bio side don't stack. On the flip side, it's often called out if they don't, so there's nothing strictly prohibiting that.

Glpyh's Troll had an LMG and a Ballistic Shield - if either of your GMs are letting you use the ballistic shield and a LMG at the same time, he's being....overly generous. If you've convinced him that the troll can one hand the shield, and then one hand the gyromounted LMG as well, more power to ya!

Well, damn. I don't mind being mistaken, but the Magic Attribute limit is really an obvious one. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. That's why laying things out for a thousand eyes to see works.

So, because his Magic rating is reduced to 3, he can't have mystic armor past rating 3. As consolation, that leaves a point and a half of Adept Power to spend elsewhere, such as in Attribute Boost, which with Magic 3 and Boost 3 would *on average* give 2 more points of BOD for a few combat turns. And, yes, I could still rob some of the other pitiful Attrributes to make his BOD better.

Bone density augmentation works on the molecular matrix of the bones and on the ligaments. Bone lacing weaves extra material through whatever bone matrix is there. I don't see any reason to challenge the BBB for not making these two exclusive. Maybe a case could be made that density augmentation couldn't come after lacing. I don't know.

Gyro stabilization is a harness with an arm ending in a weapon mount. That serves as the second support for the machine gun along with the firing arm/hand. (We don't have to talk about trying to run around a corner while wearing a gyromount, do we?)

I do not know of any shield in any time period or from any culture that was not designed to be manipulable by one hand/arm, except *maybe* those used by 'shield bearers'. None of the Shadowrun shields are labelled as such. Any shield usable by a human should be no problem for a troll.