 Sample Character w/ Cyberlimb?, Did I miss one? |
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 Mar 2 2007, 05:25 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856  |
I think you're drawing a poor conclusion. I have nothing against cyberware, in fact I quite enjoy a good cybered character. What I don't enjoy is someone utterly abusing the rules to overload a character with attributes in a character plainly designed to break the starting attribute limits. A 5 in every attribute, come on, if you think that is perfectly reasonable then I call munchkin on you! You think that as a GM I should be particularly nice to you for making this character with a body 1? I'm supposed to start counting up the days while you're healing? Lets examine the case that you take 4 boxes of physical damage. Small wound no need for a hospital for most, you just squat in your apartment. For the cyber ork in my game that's maybe two days rest if he had a bad roll on the first day. This monstrosity of munchkinism however is only getting 1 die each day. So your average week goes something like this. You roll your one dice every day, two out of six days you heal a box and one out of six days you CRITICALLY glitch and take 1d3 damage and use up an extra day in the process You want the stats on that? Any given day you have a 1 in 18 chance of increasing your damage by 3, 1 in 18 of taking 2 more, 1 in 18 of taking 1 more, 1 in 2 chance of nothing changing and 1 in 3 chance of getting better by one box. It's basically a balanced set of stats, the expected value of healing for one day is zero. That means, given any period of time you choose, you're equally likely to get worse as you are to get better. So what are you going to do? Stay in a hospital every time you get the slightest scratch? That does not sound like a very durable shadowrunner. So to summarize: You are insinuating that if I apply the healing rules on you, as they were written in the book, then I'm a bad GM who is picking on you because you're not nearly as magical as I'd like. Furthermore if I even once use a chemical attack on you I'm again picking on you because you only have one dice to resist. I think perhaps you're being overly sensative.
It's not a weakness it's a severe handicap, taken perhaps without completly understanding the consequences, and done perhaps inadvertantly to abuse the rules. And I did mention that a developer said it was not intended for full conversion cyborgs, but if you insist I'll go look it up for you. EDIT: Okay, where I got that full conversion cyborgs weren't the intent of the rules. I infered that from the FAQ answer. In fact it was the FAQ answer that WhiskyMac was refering to in the thread he started here. Can you create full-body cyborgs in Shadowrun? What if a character has 2 cyberlegs, 2 cyberarms, a cyberskull, and a cybertorso? Does the character retain his original Physical attributes, or do they all drop to 3? Can such a character receive bioware augmentation? Full-cyber-body characters aren't really encouraged in Shadowrun -- the Essence costs alone are extremely limiting -- but we will have rules for cyborgs in the upcoming Augmentation book. If a character did replace all of his limbs, then yes, his Physical attributes would be 3 (assuming the cyberlimbs are not augmented), since you use the average of the limbs' attributes. Such a character could only have bioware that replaces/augments any of his remaining physical organs -- bone density bioware, for example, couldn't be taken since the character's skeletal structure has been entirely replaced by cyberware (including ribs and skull with the cybertorso and cyberskull). As always, the GM should use common sense. I apologize if I read a little into this, but I assume that words lke discouraged, and the fact that there will be rules for it in a future book indicates the current rules lacked the intent. |
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Mar 2 2007, 06:41 AM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
I'm still wondering how you can make a character with 5 in all attributes when you can't have higher than 4 in cyberlimb enhancement due to availability of ratingX3, at chargen. Eventually perhaps you'd be able to but why would you want to, outside of a good concept for it.
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Mar 2 2007, 07:22 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
You can get physical stats of 6 for cyberlimbs for a starting character, unless I'm reading my BBB wrong. Pg. 335 states that cyberlimbs start with Body, Agility and Strength of 3 and that only cybertorsos can have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3. Therefore, if I'm reading this correctly, you can get 6 Body, 6 Agility and 6 Strength in each cyberlimb for only 9 capacity, 9 legality (R for body and strength) and 2100 :nuyen: for regular grade ware.
With that math a runner can get 2 regular grade cyberarms with 6 Body, 6 Agility, and 6 Strength for 34200 :nuyen: and still have 6 capacity (in each arm) left over for enhancements, like armor (2 pnts for 600 :nuyen: and 4 cap) or cyberarm gyromounts (4 cap and 6000 :nuyen:). I might be wrong about that though. To my reading the BBB gives a rating system of 1-7 for cyberlimbs, meaning that you can get a maximum rating of 10 for cyberlimbs. I'm guessing these enhancements are on top of the starting level 3 for the cyberlimbs. Is that right? |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:29 AM
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#29
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Indeed. However, I read that as the intent was not to encourage people to do full cyborgs. But as the writer goes on to note that they will be coming up with rules for cyborgs, I think whatever the original intent was, the writers realise that people will want cyborg PCs and intend to make them available(once Augmentation comes out). This only goes to show how even "intentions" can mean different things to different people, much less inference of intentions from the rules. Yes, the cyborg PC is (as of the rules now) is severely flawed, but does it mean that should the player create said PC within the rules, you should throw it out citing "intent"? If the PC is unbalanced, the player will have to deal with the consequences, but you should draw the player's attention to those drawbacks and he should be at least aware of them. My books are in deeper-than-deep storage, so I do not check if the PC is legal or illegal(as Leehouse claims). |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:48 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Frankly, the full cyber approach is far from an optimal one for a sammie (although pbangarth's character seems more like a skill monkey than a sammie), mainly because availability and capacity limits greatly curtail the power of cyberlimbs. Plus, a full cyborg will tend to suffer from lower initiative (not enough nuyen or Essense left), and lower physical stats (compare 5's across the board to a sammie with muscle augmentation and toner, along with dermal/bone augmentation). Not that you can't create some interesting (and possibly even playable) characters who are fully cybered, but they will lag behind sammies who use a good mix of cyberware and bioware.
The only semi-decent build that I would use with cyberlimbs would be to get a cyberarm with agility enhancement: 3 and a gyromount. And even so, it isn't worth it for a sammie. It's more something that you get for a face or hacker who is semi-combat oriented and in need of a cheap boost. |
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Mar 2 2007, 09:12 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I suppose I should point out that my bone of contention with the offered character example was not the fact that they used a full conversion. Instead I find the concept a trite way of getting around a very central limit to character generation. As to the legality of the build from a pure rules standpoint I outlined the BP costs above in my first post. 200 points attributes, 170 skills leaves 30 points for all the rest. I'd imagine some pretty hefty negative qualities to get by. Again the issue of legality under the rules is that you have to COMPLETELY ignore all the rules that say a GM must approve all item purchases. I know being reminded of such unfair aberrations in the rules totally grates the members of the Players Min/Maxing and Other Forms of Abuse Union Local #DSF. The offered character example was a body, stregth and agility 1 build. pbangarth didn't mention it directly but it's the only way to make a human with straight 5's for attributes. If you think taking three attributes at their minimum and 5 attributes at their maximum (without going into an increased cost scenerio), is not the most blatent form of minmaxing then I call munchkin on you as well. As far as the issue being addressed in Augmentation, it is purely something that we will have to wait and see about. The primary thing is that there needs to be a damage and repair mechanic for a replacement body in order for the rules to be complete and playable. So when you go back and reread my eairler post where one of the reasons I said I would not allow it was that I am unwiling to write the rules necessary so you can be a abusive character type. It's unfair to the GM and it's unfair to the other players who should be getting equal time from the GM to benefit them. I've got runs to plan, NPCs to track, what are their motivations, resources, ability to execute. How do I weave the players into the plot in a way that generally reveals a set of details. If I have to take that time to preemtively write a core rule suppliment because it was not provided until a future rule book, then I'm wasting everyone's time. Now you say should I should just draw a player's attention to the drawbacks of blantant minmaxing. Sure, here's the drawback: It is cheating and I won't allow it.
Yes, this characters primary form of abuse is not om combat it is in the abuse of the attribute+skill mechanic. The system is weighted heavily towards importance of attributes. Figure 10 bp increasing an attribute gets you one dice for every skill attached to that attribute. 10 BP in skills only allows you that one die increase in 3 or 4 skills in a skill group. The purpose of a build with 5's across the board is to beat this mechanic and allow for a supreme generalist who can manage a decent dicepool for anything under the sun.
Not necessarily, the full conversion can be done for something like 19BP. The basic parts are 85k (15k for the legs and arms so *4 + 25k for the torso), plus 7k for rating 2 upgrade in bod, Ai, and Str (1400 for each part times 5 parts). That's 92k :nuyen: and 5.5 essence. Add Synaptic 1 for 0.25 essense (after halfing it since it is bioware) Leaves you 0.25 essence and 2 Initiative passes, and saves you 10 BP you didn't have to spend on reaction if you're really willing to leave it at 5 instead of taking the bonus to 6. As far as replicating this feat with other cyberware the best you can do leaves you 40 BP short on attributes. The Dermal/Bone augmentation does not really increase body, it only increases body for damage resistance tests. So if you want a 5 for things like endurance checks for long distance running, wearing armor without losing dice on all agility related tests, etc you have to have a real body attribute. With other cyber you can get +2 for agility and strength with bio or cyber (No higher at chargen due to the availiablility limit). +2 reaction with wired or synaptic. +2 logic with Cerebral Booster. No other increases available so if you want sraight 5s across the board that leaves 240 bp worth of attributes to buy.
Yes you could, but even if you reserved a few points for body, having 1's for base attributes then replacing the body is just an attempt to get around the way attributes are balanced against skills. I've spent a decent ammount of time looking at full conversions prior to this thread. Every time I watch Robocop I start writing out a plot series based on a full conversion NPC. It's why I felt like commenting when I saw someone come on and make a claim like, that. For pbangarth to come in and say, you're just not taking the time to figure out how to make it work, then blowing this smoke. I'm sorry, pbangarth's abuse does not mean that the people who want to make a character with only one arm replaced should consider that they are not trying hard enough to make the rules work. |
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Mar 2 2007, 05:49 PM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
I disgree with that to a small extent, a sammie with an obvious lower cyberarm can get both the agi and str of it to 6 and still have room for the gyromount. This allows them to use SMGs and machine pistols (and even ARs really) with sound suppressors and not have to worry as much about recoil, or almost at all in the case of the Alpha or the Ingram. Discretion should always play a role in combat unless the HTR team is on you, then you can open up with the LMGs and assault cannons. |
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Mar 2 2007, 06:41 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
I think you are right. At least thats the way I undenstand it, and use it... |
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Mar 2 2007, 06:44 PM
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#34
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So? The GM has approval over everything in his game, including whether he wants you in his game or not. Is there some standard way to measure how much number crunching is acceptable? Again a GM can approve anything he wants! You can approve a 2000 BP Great Dragon PC, if you choose to do so as a GM. I know that being reminded that such min-maxing is not abuse and there is no unfair rules aberations totally grates on the members of the It Is Not Game Intent and Anyone Who Can Build A PC Other Than The Way I Approve Is A Cheesy Min-Maxing Abuser Union. 3 attributes at minimum and 5 at max is good min-maxing if you survive. It is not good min-maxing if you do not. It is well within the rules to create such a character. If a player wanted to create such a PC in my campaign, he is welcome to do so. The drawbacks are plain to see, I will not modify my game to suit that PC. These are the rules. Munchkin or not, powergamer or not, min-maxer or not, it doesn't matter to me. Create a rules-legal PC in my campaign and we play by the book. Cheating is loading the dice, giving yourself more points than I have allowed, I do not think being good at math is cheating. Creating a PC like that, you'd just have to deal with the in-game consequences. Every build has its own weaknesses and strengths. As a GM, I have got the whole world to throw at you. |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:29 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
D'oh, yet another point where I didn't read carefully enough, this is what happens when I don't sleep much over the course of a few days and post at nearly 2 AM. |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:30 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
9045P damage. Resist with half impact. |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:32 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
You can easily make a mid level character with cyber, and do well. You just can't make a character that competes with the twinked Sam/Adept with bioware, or better cyberware. Which on one hand makes sense, but on the other seems just wrong. You can get Agi 6 + Gyromount in your arm, which is really nice. But when the Elf Gunslinger has Agi 6 (8), that's not gonna measure up as well. If he pushes it, and goes 7 (9) or even 8 (10), you'll have to do a total retrofit and get a cybertorso. |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:52 PM
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#38
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm surprised no-one has suggested the following solution. Based on the reasonable assumption that mechanical limbs in 2070 can be alot stronger, mroe resiliant and faster than a natural, organic version, and based on the observation that lopping off a limb is lopping off a limb regardless of the quality of the replacement part, cyberware grade should apply to capacity rather than to essence cost. Therefore, you can get the fast, powerful limbs that you want, with a bit of armour, too. It's just going to cost you a lot more. There are several, very simple options that a GM can use to actually implement this principle. One would be to apply the essence modifier as a divisor to the capacity. Thus an Alpha grade limb will have 20% more capacity than a standard grade limb. E.g. a concealed full arm normally has capacity 8 and could support attributes of Body 6, Strength 6, Agility 5; the alpha version can throw in a point of armour or additional two points of Agility, too (I rounded up). As a limiter, you could make the cost of attribute increases scaled by grade as well. So the above example would cost you an additional 21,000 :nuyen: for the extra points of agility. And there you go - Cyberware is competitive again, it's just expensive so the general flavour of the setting will be the same. Bio still makes more sense to most people, but cyberware is restored to its position as brute force king. An alternate system would be to rule that the base 3 attribute ratings apply to armour as well. So the additional points of armour you pay for are on top of this. I.e armour on a cyberlimb ranges from 3 to 7. Is that powerful? Yes, but not overly so. Remember the issue with healing times, concealment, cost-to-benefit ratio, loss of other options (no bone density, etc), etc. But is it realistic? Yes. Even basic metal or plastic limbs should be far more damage resistant in 2070 than the organic alternative. And that's not even starting on issues such as the lack of bleeding. Even if your cyberleg is shot to a thousand pieces beyond all repair, you're not going to bleed to death the way a simple passing bullet will cause you to when it grazes through your femoral artery. So these are two options I would consider. I don't think either is game breaking. The first option could get a little silly with deltaware but who buys deltaware? And you can always use a different scaling system along the same principle. And the armour? It's nice, but to really get those 3 points of armour, you have to borg out like crazy and that has plenty of costs. My thoughts. -K. |
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Mar 2 2007, 07:59 PM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
knasser,
That ain't bad at all... I just started a game but that will be a houserule for consideration when I run another game assuming that Augmentation doesn't do it for me. |
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Mar 2 2007, 08:42 PM
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#40
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,068 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Wow!
Despite my attempt to stave them off with an attempt at levity (clearly ineffectual), there seem to be a few hurt feelings floating around anyway. After reading several threads (adepts suck- adepts rule-sammies are better-etc.-etc.) I felt a little frustrated when I saw yet another thread about the crappy rules. So I wrote a blurb trying to show that a fully formed, functional, believable character can be created using those allegedly crappy rules. The following comment by me: ******* My impression is that usually when someone says (PC type X) is useless, it is because he hasn't taken the time to figure out how to make (PC type X) work. [ Ouch! Ooof! OK, enough bricks and snowballs, guys!] ******* has been taken as an insult, and my argument that a nearly fully cyber-limbed character can be a viable character has been labelled 'abuse' of the rules and 'munchkin' behaviour. My statement has also been misquoted and taken to be that "the people who want to make a character with only one arm replaced should consider that they are not trying hard enough to make the rules work." I intended no insult to anyone. I merely argued, and continue to maintain, that a viable character can be made using the cyberlimb rules as they stand. The rules are there for us to use to make characters that are fun to play. I did make the mistake of talking in terms of the numbers, rather than taking people through my thinking process right from the start. So, if you will bear with me, please follow along and see what I intended for Sept de Neuf. Forgive me if while writing this I miss the latest entries in the thread. I started with the desire to try using cyberlimbs, as I had never played a character like that. So why, I asked, would anyone do that to themselves? Yes, there could be a power/edge-over-the-other-guy thing as some earlier BBB suggested, but people are really attached (!) to their body parts, and wouldn't give them up lightly, particularly if they were healthy and working well. But what if they weren't working well? What if someone, a bright kid with hopes for the future is born with a wrecked body -- I don't know, genetic accident, harmful environmental conditions, whatever. Surely 2070 has all kinds of ways to jerk a body around. Say this kid has grown up unable to do much of any kind of physical activity, confined at home, and her parents just don't have the money to fix her, even if she could be fixed. Reading and viewing fantasies and sci-fis are the only way of escape for her. (Hence the connection to Star Trek.) Now part two of the equation. Imagine there is a corporation that seeks various ways to maximize profits and is not too concerned with moral issues. (*Gasp* Does such a thing exist in the enlightened 21st century?) To this corporation, human beings are assets, to be used profitably, and discarded when no longer profitable. This corporation, lets call it Ares, has stock of cyberlimbs available, and since sales are dropping, it decides to run some cost estimates and experiments to see if it can get some profit out of these things before they are good only for scrap. So they seek out individuals who would be willing, at company expense, to be outfitted with cyberlimb technology and employed by the corporation for exciting work. Do you think the home-bound wrecked-bodied girl (from Quebec, because Cross is there and because I wanted it) would consider it? I do. "I could be like Seven-of-Nine!" Sure, the corporation doesn't tell her the fine print (more on that later) but she sees only the chance to be free from her limitations. Ares tests her and finds a person of strong will and intellect, able to get along with others, handle new situations and think on her ... well... feet. They see a prime subject for training as a corporate agent, and they accept her into the program. [*numbers bit*] With this background story it is perfectly acceptable to put most of the attribute build points into the mental attributes, and rob the physical ones. Such people exist today. Look around you. I just put her into the Shadowrun universe and started from there.[] Of course, the corporation did not tell her of the down side of such massive implantation, at least in any way that discouraged her from accepting. The corporate position is to develop a product, use it as long as it is functional, and as long as it makes a profit, there is no down side. For just over 100,000 nuyen cyberlimbs that will soon be obsolete could be implanted to make this subject a functioning agent. Whatever issues that might come up in the future, as long as she survives long enough to make back the investment, she is a successful investment. Ares builds her better, faster and stronger (with a few extra implants), trains her in covert operations, develops her natural talents and comes up with a good agent. It uses her for some number of operations. Her training and experience would be reflected in her skills. So why would she leave the corporation that gave her a life of relative freedom? Wouldn't she be grateful and a loyal corporate citizen? Probably, but there could be some crisis or catalytic event that changes her relationship to Ares. What if there was some kind of accident or damage to her, say on a mission, that tips the balance sheet in favour of 'decommisioning' this asset? [*numbers bit*] This is where the Negative Qualities come in. She already had well over a hundred BPs in skills, but I wanted her to be damaged goods, so Ares would want to dump her. (Note: it was not necessary for me to give her -any- negative qualites to have a useful character.) So I gave her a few Hacking related damages (scorched, sensitive neural structure, codeblock) to represent the damage from the mission gone bad. On top of that she has SINner, because she was a good corporate citizen (missing, not criminal so not criminal SIN- OK realistically this was a Quality required by the back story) and weak immune system because the issue of disease Demerzel points out -should- be a real problem for her, because of all those implants. I put most of those extra BP into skills because neither edge nor contacts should be high for this character on the run... she burned her bridges on the way out.[] Sept learns that Ares is going to decommission her and reclaim whatever implants it can (Hey - Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!) Feeling utterly betrayed, she decides she doesn't want to lose her physical freedom, and plans her escape. The newby character ends up in Denver (SR Missions centre of operations), down on her luck, broke, barely any contacts (Yes, a fixer -and- a street doc she managed to find before she got out.) Sept de Neuf is disillusioned, hungry, alone ... and dangerous. Now there's a fun character to play. [*numbers bit*] There are two major arguments I can glean from the posts as to why such a character is broken (as opposed to cheating) and both of them have to do with damage: pathogenic and physical. Despite the fact that the game is designed to abstract things like damage, people are not happy to just let a BOD of 5 be a BOD of 5. A) What about diseases? Sept's BOD should be 1 for resisting diseases, I am told, as the cyberlimbs have nothing to do with resisting disease. Well, neither do flesh limbs! The primary source of resistance to disease comes from the white blood cells which are made primarily in the red marrow of the flat bones (scapula, hips, skull, etc.) and to a much lesser degree in the ends of the long bones (the ones lost to cyberlimbs). One could even make an argument that the lost limbs also no longer need the attention of the blood's defence mechanism, so the white blood cells that are made could So keeping the abstract BOD of 5 and representing the loss of some resitance by giving her a weak immune system Quality seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable and fair application of the rules. I considered including pathogenic defense, but I think it is appropriately miserly of Ares to have saved that expense and instead boosted her synapses. After all, everyone knows a 'one pass wonder' is useless, right? [For Gods, sake! Do I really need to put a smiley in here??] I would rather she had the pathogenic defense, but I want her to live long and prosper. B) What about gun shots? Sept's BOD should be 1, I am told, for healing the 'hemorrhaging liver'. Again, how does having a flesh limb help fix a hole in the liver? And again, maybe the remaining organs can heal faster because the blood and food energy and whatever can be concentrated where they are needed, rather than maintaining the other 50% of the body they once had to support. So if argument can be made for both benefit and detriment to health systems as a result of cyberlimb implantation, why not just stick with the rules that were designed to be abstract so we could play the game and have fun? [] I think Sept de Neuf would be a fun character to play. Scared and lonely and looking over her shoulder, yet trained and able to meet any number of situations the shadows have to offer. And yes, she may very well die from some stupid pathogen or a gunshot. Ares built her to be expendable and they don't care. It is fully within the back story -and- the rules to play such a character. I appreciate the folks who weighed in on all sides of this issue. It is a shame that we (myself included) sometimes allow a frustration to draw out words that show more emotion than logic. To any I may have insulted, I apologize. Peter |
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Mar 2 2007, 09:12 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
her natural body is a 1. whether or not you think that cyberlimbs should hurt her ability to withstand diseases or toxins, i don't see why they would help her ability to resist those things either (provided the disease or toxin is not dependant upon the meat version not being replaced, of course).
since body 1 is her natural body, it should be what determines how her natural body reacts to things. her natural body's ability to heal is based on that natural body of 1. her natural body's ability to resist toxins and disease is based on that natural body. just like you wouldn't give her a strength 5 bite (chargen legal i assume, so no cyberskull), you wouldn't give the meat portions in her body anything other than her natural body of 1 to resist poisons/toxins, or to recover from injuries. |
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Mar 2 2007, 09:22 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I use this houserule:
Cyberlimbs: Cyberlimbs Come with rating 3 Body, Agility, and Strength as normal, but attribute increases do not cost capacity until it exceeds your body's natural unaugmented rating. If your natural rating increases during the course of the game, see your local street doc for an adjustment and you'll get that capacity back. Armor costs capacity as normal. Works for me! |
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Mar 2 2007, 09:45 PM
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#43
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,068 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
OK, something is penetrating the fog now. I will think about this a bit. Maybe that pathogenic defense might be a good thing even in Ares' eyes. |
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Mar 2 2007, 09:50 PM
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#44
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
That and any way you can find to speed up healing times. Which there aren't very many of. |
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Mar 2 2007, 09:54 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Symbiots. Going out on a limb here buy maybe consider maybe buying a body score that's not 1.
But as far as the symbiots are concerned Ares would be nuts to go through the level of surgery without some form of serious healing assistance. Probably more likely than pathogenic defense. |
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Mar 19 2007, 10:43 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
The healing rules for Stun damage is Body + Willpower (1 hour) so She will do fine there. As for physical damage Body x 2 (1 day) is used instead of Body x1. So the chances are: 2 Hits: 1/3 {5,6} * 1/3 {5,6} = 1/9 1 Hit: 1/3 {5,6} * 1 {1,2,3,4,5,6} = 1/3 Glitches: 1/2 {2,3,4} * 1/6 {1} = 1/12 Critical Glitches: 1/6 {1} * 1/6 {1} = 1/36 Critical Glitches with 3P damage: 1/36 * 1/3 = 1/108 |
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Mar 19 2007, 10:54 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
You are missing the most important part of the healing rules. It is not Body x 2 (1 day), it is Body x2 +/- modifiers (1 day). That +/- modifiers is assumed in all cases and not explicit but here it is what makes my calculations correct. In this case I’m saying a small 4 box wound, one which the average runner wouldn’t go to the hospital for. You’ll note I said, “Small wound no need for a hospital for most, you just squat in your apartment.” Look up the table for wound modifiers, and indoors in a decent place you get a –1 modifier. The only case when you get –0 is in a hospital. Furthermore, a critical glitch is a glitch with zero hits. So your 1/12 number in the case of two dice is for a critical glitch not a standard glitch. So now: 2 Hits: 1/3 {5,6} * 0 {No second die} = 0 1 Hit: 1/3 {5,6} = 1/3 Glitches: Not possible, you cannot get a hit and get a one on a single die. Critical Glitches: 1/6 {1} = 1/6 |
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Mar 20 2007, 02:02 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I can't actually find anywhere in the RAW where it says you don't use augmented body. I feel the major problem might be that stats should be averaged for all limbs including head. You can probably get away with saying you use the attributes for the arms only for shooting and the legs only for jumping, but wounds or toxins would be systemic. Therefore (5+5+5+5+5+1)/6=4.333 rounded to 4.
I wouldn't have a problem with the character (although the rules for cyberlimbs are at present somewhat inadequate, which would make GMing a pain). At least the BPs are all accounted for (unlike the troll adept I was asked to approve, which on examination used 440BPs. Whoops. Someone forgot to take into account the cost of being a troll.) |
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Mar 20 2007, 05:24 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
ornot, if you are suggesting that you are to use the average attribute for healing and toxin resistance tests then I should direct you to p335 the section on cyberlimb enhancements.
emphasis mine
Now, is the Body of your leg going to help you heal that ruptured spleen? Or fight off that CS you just inhailed? None of your limbs are involved in either of those tasks, so therefore you use your unagmented body for them. So if that was what you were refering to when you said you can't find it in RAW, there it is. If not I apologize for asuming so. |
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Mar 20 2007, 07:02 AM
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#50
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Um, Demerzel, you might want to think about the full effect of a blanket ruling that a natural healing Test is Body x2 +/- modifiers (1 day). Because that also means that Mages and Technomancers will have a harder time then Mundanes with natural healing.
Well that plus I'm fairly sure that if that was the intent then something about the fact that the character in the example having a harder time naturally healing would have been mentioned somewhere, if not in the example then in the rules themselves. The fact that applying modifers only comes up in the Rules section for First Aid & Medicine leads me to believe that they aren't supposed to apply to natural healing. Well that plus if I run down the entire table then most people will be facing at least a -4 to their Dice Pool from being indoors and not using a Medkit. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not defending pbangarth's build because I don't think it really is that viable, but I disagree that the modifiers on that table makes sense in a blanket ruling. *Edit* Plus the fact that most Sammies will also have a hard time with natural healing due to all of the Cyber they have. |
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