Is the VHP necessary?, Big trolls, big cyber, big pistols? Options

[nezumi]

Three sources have brought up the idea of over-sized guns. With long-arms, this role is already served by auto-cannons and MMGs, however there is no weapon that currently fills the role of the Very Heavy Pistol (VHP).

Why should guns too big to be wielded by unaugmented humans be around? Because we have trolls now, we have people with superhuman strength, and we have recoil compensation well beyond those of current technology. People have argued there is no realistic reason why gun companies wouldn't have taken advantage of this new market of trolls and cyber, and cybered trolls.

A VHP would use rifle caliber ammunition or larger (like the .50 BMG pistol picture we've seen handed around a few times). It would be a huge honkin' bullet, too big to be fired from a handgun given today's situation. The short barrel length means it wouldn't have the penetration of a rifle, but it would still be more deadly than an Ares Predator.

Thoughts?

[ShadowDragon8685]

You can never have a big enough shoota.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Yes, and it gives me ideas for a small gnome PC with a VHSMG jetpack. Custom VHSMGs, with selectable clips (one blanks, one regular on each) in a large harness so he can propell himself at significant speeds toward enemies, spin, and then switch clips and slow down while blasting the recieving area with very deadly suppresive fire.

He'll be the decker.

[Kyoto Kid]

...Recoil Comp - through GV, barrel design (as in the Ares Alpha) and/or extendable stock - and either a Strength min or Cyber Implant. Also with that much power I see the firing rate being SS mode.

[sunnyside]

In SR4 this is already done. The super warhawk does the same damage but has higher penetration than an assault rifle. It also has better penetration at the cost of a point of power compared to a full length shotgun.

I consider the reason it has to be a pistol to be because it's rounds simply wouldn't fit in a grip made for a hume.

A full on troll gun would then simply be a semi automatic super warhawk with maybe a ten round clip instead of a cylinder.

[nezumi]

[Crakkerjakk]

Just.... no. Gahd, Desert Eagles are already more than you need. Going higher caliber is just a matter of who is compensating most.(You know for what) A pistol is a sidearm, not a main weapon. And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference. Emptying an AK-47 into a Rhinos head will still kill it. Similarly, dropping 2-3 .45 rounds into a Trolls head should kill it. It's not THAT much bigger. It's partly just a matter of there being more area to hit, so any given hit is less likely to be vital.

[nezumi]

[Lindt]

Jack, while you might be able to hide a 30.06 handgun in the waistband of your jeans, its kinda hard to do that with an Ak.

Would I, as Joe the bodyguard, be in good mind knowing that I have a weapon in my shoulder harness that could drop even 'that' troll in a pair of center mass shots? You better bet your ass I would.

[sunnyside]

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Turtle]

I don't know, I always figured the Panther Assault Cannon filled the role of troll sidearm pretty nicely. It kinda worked like a regular pistol, at least in SR1...one action, one shot, VERY big holes. :D

[nezumi]

Sunnyside, I think you make a good argument. SR4 does not have the granularity to allow for VHPs. HPs (which have always been a bit overpowered considered) stop just short of the rifle range, and going higher would push the boundaries of credibility further.

However, that doesn't address SR3 where levels of granularity would allow the VHP go to 11 or 12M, or alternatively, 5 or 6S, either case making it far more dangerous than an HP, but still not approaching the potency of a rifle.

[Moon-Hawk]

Take a shotgun, modified for troll-grip, of course, remove the stock, cut the barrel down, load slugs.
How is this not a very heavy pistol? If we're talking SR3, isn't the modifier for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon (such as the above "shotgun") in one hand +0TN? Can I get a bookninja?
If we're talking SR4, I don't know if there's a DP penalty for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon in one hand, but I suspect either none or very small.
Right? Where did I go wrong?

[sunnyside]

[KarmaInferno]

Why am I suddenly reminded about the weapons rules for Underground?

The ones that feature handguns in the 50mm range?

:D


-karma

[HullBreach]

This is a subject near-and-dear to me as I am both a gun nut and love playing street sams. I'm going to explain my position on this, but I need to set up my position with a short forward:

Notes and Assumptions:

Weapons technology traditionally evolves only when a significant need is identified. Very rarely has there ever been a successful or widely adopted system which had to go looking for a problem to solve.

Now, we are at a bit of a disadvantage here because we think like folks from 2007, not 2060. Today we are just starting to see the beginnings of widespread (i.e. general issue) ballistic body armor on millitary forces and by para-millitary elements. Accordingly, we are seeing two new threads of development in modern weapons.

One of these is that of the P-90 and MP-7, which are small caliber weapons firing special high-velocity low mass armor defeating rounds. The other path is that of very powerful high-mass projectiles fired from compact but very accurate weapons like the .50 Beowulf or .450 Bushmaster. These don't defeat armor, they just make sure any shots that get around it make the target very very dead.

Now we have to jump forward 53 years. Body armor is a fashion statement, and some folks can even bounce small arms fire naked. There are critters that can shrug off anything short of artillery. Obviously, this is going to have influenced arms design significantly.

When I GM, I operate on a couple of assumptions that while not able to resolve the inconsistencies of the firearms system with reality, they do help an awful lot.

The first of these assumptions is that the base stats for a weapon assume it is loaded with FMJ (full metal jacket) ammunition. I assume that heavy pistols are the equivalent of the .45ACP or heavier. Light pistols are assumed to be chambered in 9x19 or lighter. Mid-range rounds like the .357sig or .40 I kinda wing if a player is looking for an 'inbetween' chambering.

The culture of Shadowrun is absolutely awash in guns, to such a degree that I'd imagine the fashion conscious probably maintain several copies of their favorite weapon in different finishes so they can accessorize their outfit appropriately. Hell, I imagine street sams play drinking games at bars like 'name that gun' every time someone walks in with something in a holster.

My Position:
The idea of ultra-heavy weapons makes sense. Cyberpunk 2020 delved into this rather extensively (hell they had at least a dozen weapons with strength/body requirements for using), and I felt the way they handled this was pretty good.

Now taking the above points into mind, heres how I would handle this:
Ultra-heavies not only exist, they are on the cover of most shooting magazines and probably even occupy some prime case space at the local gun store. BUT much like exotic and unique weapons today, they should be hellaciously expensive and hard to get your hands on. Not only because of legality issues, but because every shooter who fancies himself billy-badass wants one, so demand is stupid high.

Ammuniton should be a pain in the ass to locate as well. The closest thing to these weapons that exists today is the S&W .500 magnum or the Desert Eagle in .50AE. Next time your in your local gun shop ask the clerk how much ammo they sell in these chamberings. If its more than 3 boxes a week I will be wholeheartedly surprised. Holsters are a bitch to find too.

Also, anything other than FMJ ammunition should be rare to the point of absurdity. Players who choose to use these weapons should be driven to learn how to manufacture their own ammunition.

This comes down to a final point: These weapons will attract attention. Gun-nuts and street sams will be drawn to them like moth's to a flame. If bodies start showing up with absurdly huge holes in them, the cops are going to ask around at the local gun stores about who's been buying that size ammo.

Finally, if someone below the minimums for the weapon attempts to fire it, I recommend making them resist progressively more powerful light wounds to their wrist/shoulder.

If you all are interested, I could try to write up some rules for these and post them to my site (see sig).

[nezumi]

I would be very interested. I've posted my own rules (12M damage, but 4M damage to the shooter unless he has a cyberarm, 4 points of recoil comp, or a cyber limb), but I don't know too much about guns :P

[Wounded Ronin]

I liked Hullbreach's info. Then I clicked on his link and had gun with this page: http://heavyangel.com/?page_id=41


But, on the original topic, I think that super huge handguns would be a logical thing to expect invented in a world that has trolls and where body armor is commonplace.

However, I'd argue that in order to portray them the way that you'd want to (big rifle cartridges with short barrels) you'd have to redo all the damage weapon codes so that they make sense in terms of caliber and barrel length which probably on the whole would make combat deadlier. Which is okay with me.

Face it. It's all gonna be worth it when the troll handloads a hollow pointed .308 rifle cartridge and fires it from a gigantic revolver and someone's head disappears. After the firefight you could describe how the troll pops out the cylinder and releases the brass to reload and instead of getting the cute sound of pistol brass bouncing on concrete you get the more manly, hollow sound of these gigantic rifle casings bouncing on concrete. It would be so much fun.

[HullBreach]

[Ryu]

Never - go punish yourself for the suggestion. Now.

Pistols should stay small, once they cross a certain size other weapons do it better. Rules for wielding larger weapons in one hand make more sense considering the superhuman stats of trolls and samurai alike.

[nezumi]

[kigmatzomat]

that's really a different argument. Trolls should get a concealability bonus simply due to size and bulk. The inherent irregularity of the troll physique means it is much harder to identify tell-tale bulges. Is that a pistol or a dermal thickening? Noticing a .45 on a troll is like finding a .25 on a normal person. Heck, with hands the size of hams the grip on a troll weapon is probably larger than some light pistols.

Back in SR2 my troll carried a sawed off shotgun as his heavy pistol with a 4 round magazine. We used heavy pistol ranges but shotgun damage. It counted as a "heavy" weapon so double recoil and no barrel accessories were allowed but we used the FoF rules on strength as recoil comp.

[HullBreach]

[Darkest Angel]

No, there's already Hold Out and Light Pistols which pretty much nobody uses. The Heavy Pistols pretty much cover DEagles, anything bigger is unnessary and would probably end up with a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.