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nezumi
Three sources have brought up the idea of over-sized guns. With long-arms, this role is already served by auto-cannons and MMGs, however there is no weapon that currently fills the role of the Very Heavy Pistol (VHP).

Why should guns too big to be wielded by unaugmented humans be around? Because we have trolls now, we have people with superhuman strength, and we have recoil compensation well beyond those of current technology. People have argued there is no realistic reason why gun companies wouldn't have taken advantage of this new market of trolls and cyber, and cybered trolls.

A VHP would use rifle caliber ammunition or larger (like the .50 BMG pistol picture we've seen handed around a few times). It would be a huge honkin' bullet, too big to be fired from a handgun given today's situation. The short barrel length means it wouldn't have the penetration of a rifle, but it would still be more deadly than an Ares Predator.

Thoughts?
ShadowDragon8685
You can never have a big enough shoota.
Herald of Verjigorm
Yes, and it gives me ideas for a small gnome PC with a VHSMG jetpack. Custom VHSMGs, with selectable clips (one blanks, one regular on each) in a large harness so he can propell himself at significant speeds toward enemies, spin, and then switch clips and slow down while blasting the recieving area with very deadly suppresive fire.

He'll be the decker.
Kyoto Kid
...Recoil Comp - through GV, barrel design (as in the Ares Alpha) and/or extendable stock - and either a Strength min or Cyber Implant. Also with that much power I see the firing rate being SS mode.
sunnyside
In SR4 this is already done. The super warhawk does the same damage but has higher penetration than an assault rifle. It also has better penetration at the cost of a point of power compared to a full length shotgun.

I consider the reason it has to be a pistol to be because it's rounds simply wouldn't fit in a grip made for a hume.

A full on troll gun would then simply be a semi automatic super warhawk with maybe a ten round clip instead of a cylinder.
nezumi
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Feb 27 2007, 12:23 PM)
Yes, and it gives me ideas for a small gnome PC with a VHSMG jetpack.  Custom VHSMGs, with selectable clips (one blanks, one regular on each) in a large harness so he can propell himself at significant speeds toward enemies, spin, and then switch clips and slow down while blasting the recieving area with very deadly suppresive fire.

He'll be the decker.

I have to ask, WTF?

Two people have voted that this role is already filled by another weapon. Which weapon fills the role of the VHP?

QUOTE
In SR4 this is already done.  The super warhawk does the same damage but has higher penetration than an assault rifle.  It also has better penetration at the cost of a point of power compared to a full length shotgun.
...
A full on troll gun would then simply be a semi automatic super warhawk with maybe a ten round clip instead of a cylinder.


But if you have to make a new gun, it means it ISN'T already done. You would have to make the SA Super Warhawk, which is a custom gun.

Similarly, if we take a revolver and make it into a mag-fed SA gun, why can't we make a bigger revolver that does 7P instead of 6P?
Crakkerjakk
Just.... no. Gahd, Desert Eagles are already more than you need. Going higher caliber is just a matter of who is compensating most.(You know for what) A pistol is a sidearm, not a main weapon. And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference. Emptying an AK-47 into a Rhinos head will still kill it. Similarly, dropping 2-3 .45 rounds into a Trolls head should kill it. It's not THAT much bigger. It's partly just a matter of there being more area to hit, so any given hit is less likely to be vital.
nezumi
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference.

Apparently it does in SR. Why is it that no one ever uses a light pistol? They still put the same number of holes in people as a heavy pistol.
Lindt
Jack, while you might be able to hide a 30.06 handgun in the waistband of your jeans, its kinda hard to do that with an Ak.

Would I, as Joe the bodyguard, be in good mind knowing that I have a weapon in my shoulder harness that could drop even 'that' troll in a pair of center mass shots? You better bet your ass I would.
sunnyside
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 27 2007, 12:47 PM)
But if you have to make a new gun, it means it ISN'T already done.  You would have to make the SA Super Warhawk, which is a custom gun.

Similarly, if we take a revolver and make it into a mag-fed SA gun, why can't we make a bigger revolver that does 7P instead of 6P?

Essentially I'm saying that the warhawk is already a VHP with a significantly more potent cartridge than the other heavy pistols. The troll grip business would simply allow for a new pistol in the same cartridge as opposed to a new class of firearm.

The reason I would oppose 7P is that in SR4 you only gain points of power in firearms with very significant increases in cartridge potency.

For example observe the slight increments going from LMG to HMG, and the lower than you would expect damage codes for sniper rifles.

In your first post you spoke of lower performance than rifles in your VHP weapons. However the warhawk already surpasses the assault rifles. Improving it's damage/penetration by just one each would make it surpass full length shotguns and match full on sniper rifles and HMGs.

In fact since assault cannon rounds are already highly explosive you should probably consider EXexplosive rounds when making comparisons. Give yourself just a few points of power and you've got yourself a panther in your pants.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (nezumi)
I have to ask, WTF?

Extra-high recoil with no compensation is an excuse to start calculating acceleration due to recoil on low mass characters. Rather than just getting blown backward into a wall, do something useful with it.

Yes, it's a very expensive and non-subtle tactic inspired more by Yosemity Sam than any real benefit.
Turtle
I don't know, I always figured the Panther Assault Cannon filled the role of troll sidearm pretty nicely. It kinda worked like a regular pistol, at least in SR1...one action, one shot, VERY big holes. biggrin.gif
nezumi
Sunnyside, I think you make a good argument. SR4 does not have the granularity to allow for VHPs. HPs (which have always been a bit overpowered considered) stop just short of the rifle range, and going higher would push the boundaries of credibility further.

However, that doesn't address SR3 where levels of granularity would allow the VHP go to 11 or 12M, or alternatively, 5 or 6S, either case making it far more dangerous than an HP, but still not approaching the potency of a rifle.
Moon-Hawk
Take a shotgun, modified for troll-grip, of course, remove the stock, cut the barrel down, load slugs.
How is this not a very heavy pistol? If we're talking SR3, isn't the modifier for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon (such as the above "shotgun") in one hand +0TN? Can I get a bookninja?
If we're talking SR4, I don't know if there's a DP penalty for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon in one hand, but I suspect either none or very small.
Right? Where did I go wrong?
sunnyside
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Take a shotgun, modified for troll-grip, of course, remove the stock, cut the barrel down, load slugs.
How is this not a very heavy pistol? If we're talking SR3, isn't the modifier for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon (such as the above "shotgun") in one hand +0TN? Can I get a bookninja?
If we're talking SR4, I don't know if there's a DP penalty for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon in one hand, but I suspect either none or very small.
Right? Where did I go wrong?

Actually via cannon companion I believe in SR3 there was a "sawed off" option for shotguns.

It turned a higher damage shotgun into a heavy pistol for range and damage code, due to the shortened barrel length.

So in SR3 the heavy pistols were fireing shotgun sized rounds. And something bigger on their warhawks. And SR2 was similar enough that the same should apply there.

However the system is granular enough you could make arguments for rounds beyond eight gauge or whatever the warhawk fired.
KarmaInferno
Why am I suddenly reminded about the weapons rules for Underground?

The ones that feature handguns in the 50mm range?

biggrin.gif


-karma
HullBreach
This is a subject near-and-dear to me as I am both a gun nut and love playing street sams. I'm going to explain my position on this, but I need to set up my position with a short forward:

Notes and Assumptions:

Weapons technology traditionally evolves only when a significant need is identified. Very rarely has there ever been a successful or widely adopted system which had to go looking for a problem to solve.

Now, we are at a bit of a disadvantage here because we think like folks from 2007, not 2060. Today we are just starting to see the beginnings of widespread (i.e. general issue) ballistic body armor on millitary forces and by para-millitary elements. Accordingly, we are seeing two new threads of development in modern weapons.

One of these is that of the P-90 and MP-7, which are small caliber weapons firing special high-velocity low mass armor defeating rounds. The other path is that of very powerful high-mass projectiles fired from compact but very accurate weapons like the .50 Beowulf or .450 Bushmaster. These don't defeat armor, they just make sure any shots that get around it make the target very very dead.

Now we have to jump forward 53 years. Body armor is a fashion statement, and some folks can even bounce small arms fire naked. There are critters that can shrug off anything short of artillery. Obviously, this is going to have influenced arms design significantly.

When I GM, I operate on a couple of assumptions that while not able to resolve the inconsistencies of the firearms system with reality, they do help an awful lot.

The first of these assumptions is that the base stats for a weapon assume it is loaded with FMJ (full metal jacket) ammunition. I assume that heavy pistols are the equivalent of the .45ACP or heavier. Light pistols are assumed to be chambered in 9x19 or lighter. Mid-range rounds like the .357sig or .40 I kinda wing if a player is looking for an 'inbetween' chambering.

The culture of Shadowrun is absolutely awash in guns, to such a degree that I'd imagine the fashion conscious probably maintain several copies of their favorite weapon in different finishes so they can accessorize their outfit appropriately. Hell, I imagine street sams play drinking games at bars like 'name that gun' every time someone walks in with something in a holster.

My Position:
The idea of ultra-heavy weapons makes sense. Cyberpunk 2020 delved into this rather extensively (hell they had at least a dozen weapons with strength/body requirements for using), and I felt the way they handled this was pretty good.

Now taking the above points into mind, heres how I would handle this:
Ultra-heavies not only exist, they are on the cover of most shooting magazines and probably even occupy some prime case space at the local gun store. BUT much like exotic and unique weapons today, they should be hellaciously expensive and hard to get your hands on. Not only because of legality issues, but because every shooter who fancies himself billy-badass wants one, so demand is stupid high.

Ammuniton should be a pain in the ass to locate as well. The closest thing to these weapons that exists today is the S&W .500 magnum or the Desert Eagle in .50AE. Next time your in your local gun shop ask the clerk how much ammo they sell in these chamberings. If its more than 3 boxes a week I will be wholeheartedly surprised. Holsters are a bitch to find too.

Also, anything other than FMJ ammunition should be rare to the point of absurdity. Players who choose to use these weapons should be driven to learn how to manufacture their own ammunition.

This comes down to a final point: These weapons will attract attention. Gun-nuts and street sams will be drawn to them like moth's to a flame. If bodies start showing up with absurdly huge holes in them, the cops are going to ask around at the local gun stores about who's been buying that size ammo.

Finally, if someone below the minimums for the weapon attempts to fire it, I recommend making them resist progressively more powerful light wounds to their wrist/shoulder.

If you all are interested, I could try to write up some rules for these and post them to my site (see sig).
nezumi
I would be very interested. I've posted my own rules (12M damage, but 4M damage to the shooter unless he has a cyberarm, 4 points of recoil comp, or a cyber limb), but I don't know too much about guns nyahnyah.gif
Wounded Ronin
I liked Hullbreach's info. Then I clicked on his link and had gun with this page: http://heavyangel.com/?page_id=41


But, on the original topic, I think that super huge handguns would be a logical thing to expect invented in a world that has trolls and where body armor is commonplace.

However, I'd argue that in order to portray them the way that you'd want to (big rifle cartridges with short barrels) you'd have to redo all the damage weapon codes so that they make sense in terms of caliber and barrel length which probably on the whole would make combat deadlier. Which is okay with me.

Face it. It's all gonna be worth it when the troll handloads a hollow pointed .308 rifle cartridge and fires it from a gigantic revolver and someone's head disappears. After the firefight you could describe how the troll pops out the cylinder and releases the brass to reload and instead of getting the cute sound of pistol brass bouncing on concrete you get the more manly, hollow sound of these gigantic rifle casings bouncing on concrete. It would be so much fun.
HullBreach
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Face it. It's all gonna be worth it when the troll handloads a hollow pointed .308 rifle cartridge and fires it from a gigantic revolver and someone's head disappears. After the firefight you could describe how the troll pops out the cylinder and releases the brass to reload and instead of getting the cute sound of pistol brass bouncing on concrete you get the more manly, hollow sound of these gigantic rifle casings bouncing on concrete. It would be so much fun.

I like your style! Though nothing beats the hollow 'thuck' of a shotgun hull bouncing on the ground.

Another fun thing to bust out on players is somthing like this:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encorePistols.php

These are single-shot break action pistols that fire just about every cartridge known to man by swapping out a few parts.

I've actually considered creating a gun using adept who was highly specialized in the use of one of these.

Spike Spiegel uses one in an episode of Cowboy Bebop. Mad style points even if its tactically nuts.
Ryu
Never - go punish yourself for the suggestion. Now.

Pistols should stay small, once they cross a certain size other weapons do it better. Rules for wielding larger weapons in one hand make more sense considering the superhuman stats of trolls and samurai alike.
nezumi
QUOTE (Ryu)
Pistols should stay small, once they cross a certain size other weapons do it better. Rules for wielding larger weapons in one hand make more sense considering the superhuman stats of trolls and samurai alike.

The goal of pistols is concealability. Even a large pistol is more easily concealed than a rifle, but (in SR) have more penetration than an SMG. So why would a troll, who is large enough to wield a larger pistol, use a rifle when he wants a reasonable conceal rating? Why would he use an Ares Predator when he is capable of shooting something bigger?
kigmatzomat
that's really a different argument. Trolls should get a concealability bonus simply due to size and bulk. The inherent irregularity of the troll physique means it is much harder to identify tell-tale bulges. Is that a pistol or a dermal thickening? Noticing a .45 on a troll is like finding a .25 on a normal person. Heck, with hands the size of hams the grip on a troll weapon is probably larger than some light pistols.

Back in SR2 my troll carried a sawed off shotgun as his heavy pistol with a 4 round magazine. We used heavy pistol ranges but shotgun damage. It counted as a "heavy" weapon so double recoil and no barrel accessories were allowed but we used the FoF rules on strength as recoil comp.
HullBreach
QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
Back in SR2 my troll carried a sawed off shotgun as his heavy pistol with a 4 round magazine. We used heavy pistol ranges but shotgun damage. It counted as a "heavy" weapon so double recoil and no barrel accessories were allowed but we used the FoF rules on strength as recoil comp.

You actually breach a good point here: As much as my previously described ultra-high end weapons make sense, theres also the fact that a lot of weapons with similar chamberings and uses will have been manufactured with hacksaws and duct tape.

I know a cop who told me a story once about how they pulled a guy over who was packing a whippet made from a cut-down Mini-14 he had stolen. This is kind of the 'redneck' solution to the problem.
Darkest Angel
No, there's already Hold Out and Light Pistols which pretty much nobody uses. The Heavy Pistols pretty much cover DEagles, anything bigger is unnessary and would probably end up with a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.
nezumi
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.

But as far as I am aware, there are no rules for a sawn off. So whether the "VHP" class is made by factories or by jury-rigging, it still is not supported by the current rules.

So my question stands, do you want rules that would allow for a sawn-off hunting rifle/shotgun?
sunnyside
While I think there is some room for pistols to get a little bigger in SR3 and SR2 (but not SR4) I think you guys are still selling the current heavies (and especially the warhawk) short. I think it's because SR shies away from body/strength/recoil requirements for weapons until you get into things meant for vehicles.

So, just as a gnome in gradeschool can fire a ten gauge on full auto with one hand using a pistol grip without a penalty, your characters can fire warhawks without any problem. Doesn't mean the warhawk is fireing little .45s.

Also it seems some of you have decided that barrels in longarms are there for
Sh*ts and giggles. I'd need to dig in the back of my closet but I'm 99% sure that there were rules in SR3 for sawed off shotguns and they dropped the damage code from 10S to 9M. Does that damage code look familiar?

So a preditor is shooting something roughly equivalent to a high powered shotgun (shotguns run from 8S to 10S so I figure 10S is something like a 10 gauge).

The warhawk is more powerful so it's probably fireing something roughly equivalent to a sawed off 8 guage or maybe even a 6.

If you want pistols heavier than that OK, just be aware you're really getting up there.

If you want more realism put some requirements on fireing the heavy pistols.
nezumi
That's an interesting direction I hadn't considered, putting restrictions on firing heavier guns. That is, at its core, the basic problem. There's nothing stopping a Strength 1 character from using an LMG (except he has to be able to carry it in the first place, but because the encumbrance rules are so messed up, I've never seen that come up).

I do agree that the current firearms rules are nerfed, and its something that's getting changed in SR3R. Shadowrun has long neglected the fact that barrel length is critical to the power of the bullet. And so when I put forward the idea of VHPs, I did so with the full realization that this idea was being built upon previous flawed reasoning that was outside of my control.
Darkest Angel
QUOTE (nezumi)
So my question stands, do you want rules that would allow for a sawn-off hunting rifle/shotgun?

The Remmington 990 comes in a sawn off shotgun variety. Check out Cannon Companion, there's rules for 'sawn off' in there from SR3.
Pendaric
I consider VHP's to be a house rule call. If there is a strong call for one in your game indulge your player if you wish. The current rules fall short of perfect realism in favour of good/ease of game play. There is no hard and fast logic to the firearm rules, sawn off shotguns and the enricho hatamoto heavy pistol for example.
The VHP should remain an optional personal choice for each ref.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
No, there's already Hold Out and Light Pistols which pretty much nobody uses. The Heavy Pistols pretty much cover DEagles, anything bigger is unnessary and would probably end up with a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.

But what if you want a rifle cartridge for better performance against armor? A Bushmaster 5.56 pistol might be more practical for a troll and less of a pure novelty.
HullBreach
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Feb 28 2007, 10:33 AM)
No, there's already Hold Out and Light Pistols which pretty much nobody uses.  The Heavy Pistols pretty much cover DEagles, anything bigger is unnessary and would probably end up with a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.

But what if you want a rifle cartridge for better performance against armor? A Bushmaster 5.56 pistol might be more practical for a troll and less of a pure novelty.

Hell those are fun to use for normal sized folks!
(waiting on my NFA AOW paperwork so I can put a front pistol grip on mine)
X-Kalibur
Well, mostly because I enjoy pistols I say yes smile.gif

But that aside given the 'ware available I don't see them as being unrealistic at all. I do see them being only SS unless you meet a strength requirement or a RC requirement (both are likely to be obtained thru 'ware).

On the topic of HullBreach's guns, I'm actually going to see if I can't talk my GM into letting me use the "Gong" given that the character has an obvious lower cyberarm with a cyberarm gyromount and the str and agi on the arm are 6. (both the meat and the metal stats, I figured it would eliminate math if I made them the same). I'm sure I'll QUICKLY be receiving the soon to be added Distinctive style flaw. Right along side anyone who makes a troll with a bow. rotfl.gif

SR4 slightly covers the VHP category with the Ruger Superwarhawk (6P -2 AP) and SR3 with Cannon Companion had the Eichiro Hatamoto (can't remember stats, 12M maybe?).

I'd really like the Thunderbolt and the Savalette Guardian back myself though, although I doubt they would be hard to recreate (Guardian is just a 6P -1AP with burst fire as a complex action, integral RC of 1, and built in Smartlink)
Glyph
I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs. Something like a Defiance T-250 is the equivalent of a large-bore pistol for a troll, while an Uzi III is the equivalent of a machine pistol. And by the time you modify either weapon with an oversized troll grip, they probably start looking like big pistols.

I agree that trolls should get a bonus for weapon concealability due to their huge size - +2 or +3 maybe?
HullBreach
Just had the mental image of a hold-out pistol with troll grips on it. <LMAO>
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Glyph)
I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs.

As I said before, I agree.

The tricky part is, if the troll takes the pistol-grip sawed-off semi-auto slug-firing shotgun and uses it as a VHP, does he use the pistol skill or the shotgun skill?
nezumi
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 28 2007, 10:58 PM)
I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs.

As I said before, I agree.

The tricky part is, if the troll takes the pistol-grip sawed-off semi-auto slug-firing shotgun and uses it as a VHP, does he use the pistol skill or the shotgun skill?

One problem with this is SMGs are using a smaller caliber bullet (presumably) to make up for it being in a smaller package. If we had an SMG that fired shotgun slugs, it would seem to me that we can consider SMGs the VHP category, and the shotgun-SMG the troll SMG category.

I keep going back to the point that the critical difference between a handgun and a long gun is a long gun is... long. A sawed off shotgun, by the rules, goes back to a 9M damage code, so we can infer that a long, standard HP, if given a long barrel, is a 10-12S. There is nothing with a bigger bullet than a sawed off shotgun (in other words, something small enough for a human to handle), that isn't a long gun.

Should we consider sawing off assault rifles? Or would that just go back to SMG damage? Sawing off LMGs?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (nezumi)
A sawed off shotgun, by the rules, goes back to a 9M damage code,

Are you sure about that? I was thinking that they lost some range and maybe dropped from 10S to 9S, but I didn't think it went all the way to 9M.
I have no SR3 quotes to wield; does anyone?
Austere Emancipator
Sawed off assault rifles are not a good idea. When you get to really short barrels there's no advantage there over calibers like 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm.

A shotgun sawed off to be a "Troll Heavy Pistol" wouldn't have a barrel as short as a human standard Heavy Pistol, it'd be 65% longer -- in SR3 at least, slightly less so in SR4. Makes perfect sense to me to allow an 8S shotgun/HP with Heavy Pistol ranges and concealability, according to both in-game and real life logic. With the skill you could go either way.

Similarly SMGs could work as "Troll Machine Pistols" (although there the differentiation in damage is much harder to justify with real life logic, but we aren't really going there), and slightly shortened (Barrel Reduction) SA/BF shotguns or sport rifles as "Troll SMGs". LMGs could work as "Troll ARs" by simply modifying them to be troll-wieldable (though again if you're trying to make sense of the damage ratings...).

[Edit]Ruleswise the gun modification option "Barrel Reduction" has the following effects: -10% range, -0.25kg weight, +2 concealability, plus increased cost and lowered FCUs. (CC, p. 74). However, you could make the case that making a shotgun into a "Troll Heavy Pistol" goes a bit beyond what that's supposed to simulate.[/Edit]
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Sawed off assault rifles are not a good idea. When you get to really short barrels there's no advantage there over calibers like 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm.

Sure there is, from a role playing perspective.

If I'm a troll with hands the size of Kansas and I need to load up my magazines I would have a much less frustrating time pushing in big 7.62x51 cartridges than I would pushing in relatively tiny PDW cartridges.

Similarly, if I want to handload, my life will be filled with utter frustration if I need to do this into a small piece of brass. As a troll I really want to work with a big magic marker sized piece of brass so that I don't dump my powder all over the desk whenever my hand shakes a little bit.
Austere Emancipator
Though the cases are longer, common assault rifle calibers wouldn't otherwise help the troll there. If you're just interested in filling up a mag, get a magazine loader. 5.56x45mm cartridges weigh about the same as 9x19mm ones, 7.62x39mm slightly less than .45 ACP ones. 7.62x51mm cartridges, though already out of the assault rifle range, at least weigh almost as much as .44 Magnum ones, but still in each case you're looking at far smaller and far lighter bullets, and much smaller diameters for everything but the rear part of the case, if that. For those big, clumsy troll fingers you'll want a shotgun.

Scaling a .45 ACP up to troll size (ie. 1.65x in every direction), you'd get 19x38mm -- basically an 11 gauge, 1½" chamber shotgun. Funny how that works out.

[Edit]Here's a 9x19mm FMJ cartridge next to a 5.56x45mm M855 FMJ. A 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm will look relatively smaller next to a .45 ACP and .44 Magnum, respectively.[/Edit]
hyzmarca
When I think of heavy pistols for trolls, I always come back to the Thunder .50 BMG and the Jesus Pistol.

Certainly, a troll would be more comfortable handling the large .50BMG cartridge than he would be handling other cartridges. I imagine that someone will actually decide that there is some profit in building these.
Austere Emancipator
The funny thing about the Birdman M82B1-P is that the bullet would actually be sticking out of the barrel and into the muzzle brake, with the most likely effect of catastrophic failure on the first shot. Except of course you can't fire it, because there's not enough space for the bolt and slider to move back far enough to chamber a round.

Make it 6" longer in both directions, though, and we're in business.
Darkest Angel
Going back many many years to when I was in the Army Cadets and used the SA80 on a pretty regular basis, I recall that even at 14 I could handle it one handed pretty easily thanks to it's bullpup configuration. Also, the rules in CC state that wielding a two handed firearm (not heavy weapons btw) with one hand is no problem for a Troll. So, with that in mind - why do you need an even heavier pistol when you can pack a regular Ares Alpha as if it was an Ares Predator anyway? The only reason is concealability, which can be taken care of with barrel reduction.
Mistwalker
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk @ Feb 27 2007, 12:55 PM)
And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference.

Apparently it does in SR. Why is it that no one ever uses a light pistol? They still put the same number of holes in people as a heavy pistol.

Actually, my char does use a light pistol, loaded with S&S rounds of course, and a 30 round magazine.

But then, she is not the team's gun bunny.

I voted yes, but needing size/augmentation requirements. I would agree with it being a heavy weapon, so no barrel accessories, so no silencer. It would make a huge amount of noise, and probably draw an automatic HTR response team.
HullBreach
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Actually, my char does use a light pistol, loaded with S&S rounds of course, and a 30 round magazine.

I usually pack a machine pistol. My reasoning is that bursts bring it in line with a heavy pistol, and I still have the option of suppressive fire if needed.

Then again, Im a firm believer in that saying about the only purpose for a handgun being to fight your way to your rifle.
nezumi
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
So, with that in mind - why do you need an even heavier pistol when you can pack a regular Ares Alpha as if it was an Ares Predator anyway? The only reason is concealability, which can be taken care of with barrel reduction.

I assume you would also reduce the stock and, if possible, remove any forward hand grips.

So we now have an assault rifle with no long barrel, no stock and a single pistol grip. At this point, what makes it an assault rifle? Is it better considered an assault rifle, using the assault rifle skill, or an over-sized machine pistol?
HullBreach
Hmm there are a few examples of what your describing already out there:

Sig 556 Pistol debuted at this years SHOT show:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430...408&f=430601935

Almost half of bushmasters Carbon-15 Line of weapons:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/

Krinkov's are pretty common in some parts of the middle east:
http://www.ak47review.com/gear/Gear_Review...=gear1141107764

Im sure theres some others out there Im forgetting, but these aren't all that uncommon. There are some issues with them though, mainly obscenely huge muzzle flashes, combined with being EXTREMELY loud. Also, your not getting anywhere near the velocity you'd get out of a rifle because of the shorted barrel.
Darkest Angel
Which are machine pistols or SMGs, which are already catered for. It's just an example of twinks wanting to get twinkier and looking for an excuse. There are ways and means of acheiving the ends wanted, using the rules provided. That's what I voted for, and therefore see no reason to add more devastating weaponry than is already out there. As I've already said, the only conceivable benefit is concealability, if you want to treat trolls as always wearing a long coat when clothed, that's fine.

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

Maybe during the course of gameplay you'll come across a one handed troll sized sports/sniper/assault rifle, but it'll just be a custom made sports/sniper/assault rifle and will follow all the established rules for sports/sniper/assault rifles.
Lindt
There we go Hullbreach. A 5.56 pistol. And its SO scary.... I want one.

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