 Noticing Magic, I could really use some clarifications |
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 Mar 4 2007, 06:27 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130  |
A hermetic mage with no shamanic mask, no gestures, no chanting, and no flashy effects casts a force 10 stunbolt in front of a mundane character. According to the rules the only way for a mundane to notice the spell is by seeing the intense look of concentration since all the other effects listed are if you have geas, a disadvantage, or a shaman. A mana spell doesn't even show up in the physical world like a lightning bolt spell would. What exactly is this mundane noticing? 10-6 is 4. Which means there is no way they wouldn't notice it. But, notice what? The intense look of concentration? That's it? How do they even notice a spell has been cast then?
According to RAW they would notice it; I am not questioning this. What I am questioning is what exactly they notice. I am sure some of you that have been playing SR for a while would know. |
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Mar 4 2007, 06:31 AM
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#2
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I din't think it ever explicitly says. I always figured that , for one, it would differ by tradition. It coud be hand gestures the caster thinks is necessary, could be visible energy building up. Remember Big Trouble in Little China by chance? Good example for your lightning bolt.
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Mar 4 2007, 06:39 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492 |
Have you ever felt something wierd? Like someone is about to touch you, but nobody's around? I would imagine that mundanes feel mana spells like that.
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Mar 4 2007, 06:40 AM
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#4
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Check your hymnal; there are smatterings of references to various methods of perceiving magic. And yeah, I play it that magical effects of Force 6 or higher are obvious as being magical: there's a ripple through the air or some such; it doesn't have to be just visual.
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Mar 4 2007, 06:44 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Yeah, but that is a lightning bolt, that makes sense. What about a stunbolt, mind probe, control thoughts, and any other spell that doesn't show up in the physical world. They aren't noticing hand gestures because the mage in question doesn't have any geasa. So he wouldn't be making hand gestures. All they have to go by is the intense look of concentration which could mean practically anything. Maybe he is: playing a video game, in a virtual world, reading a book, watching a trid, or any other normal thing which could require an intense look of concentration. What differentiates this from any other intense look of concentration?
Think about it, this is something important to know. It is all about roleplaying. The NPCs or PCs seeing it would respond differently depending. If my character is walking through a slaughter house he is going to smell a very terrible smell because he notices it. The thing that he is noticing is the smell of the blood and meat. In this scenario there is no thing that they are noticing that is sufficient to lead someone to the rational belief that a spell is being cast. They have nothing to go by except the intense look of concentration. Which could actually mean many things other than casting a spell. Especially with the influence of movies with magic in them. All of them have really flashy insane special effects. So wouldn't a mundane be looking for this when they think they see a spell? What about all the misconception mundanes have about magic? Why would the intense look of concentration even signal magic is being used to them, when they expect much more to begin with? I realize that the spell is being noticed; I just would like to know why and how. |
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Mar 4 2007, 06:46 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Mana spells do not create a physical visual cue. A ripple through the air is a visual cue. I did check the hymnal, as you can see by my rather targeted specific questions. |
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Mar 4 2007, 06:49 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
This is definitely a perception test as the rules clearly states. Also, this is not mentioned in the fluff. The sort of sense you described also implies some sort of magic ability to be able to recognize the flow of mana being formed/manipulated. While interesting there is nothing in the RAW or fluff to indicate this. |
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Mar 4 2007, 06:54 AM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Remember that perception runs the gambit of Audio, Visual, Scent, Taste and Touch.
So you, as a GM, think that mana spells cant be seen. Ok, what about hearing them though? A mana buildup of 6+ might have a hum of power in the air or maybe send shivers down your spine for apparent reason. You might be able to taste the power in the air or smell it like you might smell lightning in the air. |
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Mar 4 2007, 06:59 AM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's important to note that someone who succeeds at a perception test to notice a spell being cast notices a spell being cast. that is to say, whatever it is they see, they know it's a spell. they're not going to mistake a stunbolt for a gust of wind or something--they're going to be aware that it's a spell, and if they see the effects of the spell (someone being hit by it), they're going to have a reasonable idea of what type of spell they saw being cast.
beyond that, it doesn't matter what the specific cues are, because they're not going to be mistaken for anything else. |
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Mar 4 2007, 07:19 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
This doesn't answer anything I didn't already know. The problem here is the specific cues. So to just toss them away to being inconsequential doesn't make sense. It does matter because this is a roleplaying game. It isn't enough just to say something happens. I also disagree that they would know what spell is being cast. The text says they notice the magic or force. In order to know the spell being cast they would have to assense it or be familiar with spells themselves, which would require the appropriate knowledge skill. So, the mundane somehow(not really sure) notices magic is in use. Now in the case of stunbolt, if they are in direct observation of the magician casting the spell and the target it is being cast on, they most likely would be able to put two and two together. They notice magic being used and then the target of the spell begins bleeding terribly and his body just viciously contorted. They won't know it is stunbolt, but they will know a combat spell was just cast on the target. |
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Mar 4 2007, 07:26 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
in real life, the perceiver would notice the sensory cues of the spells and figure out that a spell is being cast. this, however, is a game, and it must follow game logic in order to better emulate real life. therefore, this is what happens: the perceiver passes his perception check, and as a result knows that a spell is being cast. from that point, the GM and the players must shape their descriptions of the events in order to take that fact into account. if the perceiver passes his test, you don't get to say "well, my spell has no sensory cues." he passed the test, therefore it has sensory cues and it is up to you to decide what those cues are. which is why i said it doesn't matter what the specific sensory cues are--it's your job to provide descriptions of sensory cues which match the die rolls.
that's not quite what i said. i said, "they're going to have a reasonable idea of what type of spell is being cast." to put it in your words, they can put two and two together. |
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 Mar 4 2007, 08:53 AM
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#12
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Spells, like elementals, probably have some visual effect in astral space, which is also visible to much lesser extent physically. A high force effect has a more noticable effect.
Bye Thanee |
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Mar 4 2007, 01:52 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Several people have already given examples of specific cues, but I'll reiterate just in case
Basically, any of the classical sensations associated with a paranormal experience. Any of these sensations should be things that are internalized, and the actual experience could probably vary from character to character. |
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Mar 4 2007, 02:13 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
I have no problem with the spell being noticed, or possibly being noticed.
My question about the whole issue is, could a mundane who noticed something be able to tell who cast the spell, if there are no obvious clues (lightning bolt, power bolt, etc..)? Example: Mage in the mall, in the food court, apparently listening intently to his spouse critize him. If he casts Mind Probe on a secretary as they walk by (to get the travel itiniary, new password, who has won the ABC contract, etc..). Even if a large number of mundanes noticed, would any be able to ID the hen pecked husband as the mage? |
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Mar 4 2007, 02:15 PM
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#15
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
From a piece of Shadowrun fiction I wrote:
But then I portray magic in my game as something sinister and enclosing. |
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Mar 4 2007, 05:39 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
think of it like "a ghost" some people see it others don't. everyone "sees" it differently. in your example you have to ask, do you want a real world situation? or a cinematic one. |
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Mar 4 2007, 05:50 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Holiday Florida Member No.: 9,055 |
This would make for an interesting optional rule for 'covert casting'. If a mage wants to cast without drawing notice, I could see giving them a small penalty. However on the other hand, if they make a big show of it (hand gestures chanting etc.) I could see giving them a small bonus.
The happy medium would be somewhere in between with a small hand gesture and some muttering. |
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Mar 4 2007, 10:37 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
So I am guessing all of these cues would be directed towards the caster. Otherwise they could mean anything to a mundane. Even with these cues, why does the mundane feel it is magic causing them? Not being able to actually observe anything, what indicates it as magic in use to them? A lot of these cues can easily be doubted as even being real to the mundane or any sort of concrete way to know magic has just been noticed. The RAW paints a picture of noticing magic that is unmistakable to anyone who makes the test. It would be the same as succeeding in a perception test to see a pressure plate. The specific cues you and others gave are smothered with ambiguity and fail to fully answer the question of exactly how the mundane knows it is magic. Such feelings could be caused by many other things. What takes the mundane from observing/feeling these specific cues and leads them to believe magic is being used? Things like hand gestures, chanting, shamanic mask, and flashy effects make perfect sense. Yet there is nothing to indicate magic being used for your average hermetic without flashy effects and geasa. At least, this is the way it appears. The rules say differently, so where is the fluff that goes along with it. All of the specific cues mentioned are very acceptable, inventive, and well thought out. But how, as a GM do you explain the situation. I mean, there is something called suspension of belief. Can a GM really expect a player to believe a mundane NPC knew they were casting magic because shivers went up their spine? I understand that currently it is all we have to work with in this sort of situation unless the GM house rules that all spells can manifest physically and thus be perceived. Looking at it in another way, why wouldn't a mundane always notice someone shooting a lightning bolt out of their hands. I mean a lightning bolt is a lightning bolt whether it is force 1 or force 10. Albeit it might be smaller and harder to see but no way is something like that not going to be seen. Especially when there is a low amount of light. All in all, I have to say this is a rule that needs some tweaking and some way to account for all spells with believability. If that means giving everyone in the Sixth World some sort of "sixth sense", which these specific cues seem to be leading to, then so be it. |
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Mar 4 2007, 10:49 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,468 Joined: 5-December 06 From: Somewhere in the Flooding, CalFree Member No.: 10,215 |
My thoughts on this is that all magic that a regular mage does takes some sort movement/ speech/ something for the mage to able to direct its will properly to complete the spell. Sure, magic can be done without any signs by the caster, but it is going to be a lot harder on the mage than normal and is probably not going to come out as powerful as if they had done physical part of the casting. The movements aren't neccesary but they help a whole lot. I would grant penalties to mages who try to cast without any signs, also a penalty on the perception test of anyone trying to notice the mage casting. Though I don't know about doing it the other way around, as some movement will help a mage, but anything more is just being excessive and will only get the mage spotted quicker.
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Mar 4 2007, 11:47 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Well, it's been 60 years since the awakening. There's been a fair bit of writing in pop culture about how to recognize when your next door neighbor is trying to hex your dog, seduce your spouse, or get rich quick using alchemy. No doubt there are grade school classes that cover the basics on how to recognize magic use. Some of these would probably be instrumental in detecting children who had greater potential for awakening later.
All the examples that I gave indicate it. If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something. At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.
No. They're smothered in ambiguity in modern times. Modern times where we do not have magic. In a world where magic has been in active use for 60 years, they have a meaning that's abundantly clear.
Yes, absolutely. Remember, magic has been back for 60 years. It's kind of like asking somebody today how they know that there are TV signals being broadcast through the air if they haven't turned on a TV. (Well, kind of. It's not a great example, but it's what I can come up with.)
Because the lightning doesn't have to shoot out of their hands. The lightning strike happens to the target, it doesn't have to arc from the caster to the target. In D&D, it's explicitly spelled out that a magic-user physically throws a fireball or a mage holds his hands just so to launch a magic missile. That's not the case in Shadowrun. For example:
In Shadowrun, the lightning bolt could just erupt from the heavens, a nearby lightbulb, or a power outlet. Similarly, a Shadowrun fireball could just form and explode on the oil drum next to the target. The one that had a bullet ricochet off of it a fraction of a second earlier. Does that make a little more sense? |
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Mar 5 2007, 12:00 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Are there any more insults you would like to throw into this objective discussion I am trying to have with the Dumpshock community? |
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Mar 5 2007, 12:05 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
*Brzzt* Oh... I'm sorry, but thanks for playing 'Call Out'. the_dunner hasn't actually insulted you yet, so that means you lose the game. The exit is just over there. Have a nice day. |
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Mar 5 2007, 01:03 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
@ the Dunner
I have no problem with mundanes being able to notice that magic is being done. What I would like to know, is, would they be able to notice who was doing the magic, if the caster was being discreet? |
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Mar 5 2007, 03:11 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
ask yourself "why not?" instead of wondering if they can find evidence and discussion to prove to yourself that they cannot. |
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Mar 5 2007, 03:14 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
I can live with it either way.
The caster could have that otherwordly "feeling" about them as they cast, the same way that spirits are noticible (unless using special powers). I just wanted to know what the official, or semi-official ruling is. That will allow me to design adventures in a way that is more inline with the RAW. |
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