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Eleazar
A hermetic mage with no shamanic mask, no gestures, no chanting, and no flashy effects casts a force 10 stunbolt in front of a mundane character. According to the rules the only way for a mundane to notice the spell is by seeing the intense look of concentration since all the other effects listed are if you have geas, a disadvantage, or a shaman. A mana spell doesn't even show up in the physical world like a lightning bolt spell would. What exactly is this mundane noticing? 10-6 is 4. Which means there is no way they wouldn't notice it. But, notice what? The intense look of concentration? That's it? How do they even notice a spell has been cast then?

According to RAW they would notice it; I am not questioning this. What I am questioning is what exactly they notice. I am sure some of you that have been playing SR for a while would know.
fistandantilus4.0
I din't think it ever explicitly says. I always figured that , for one, it would differ by tradition. It coud be hand gestures the caster thinks is necessary, could be visible energy building up. Remember Big Trouble in Little China by chance? Good example for your lightning bolt.
Slump
Have you ever felt something wierd? Like someone is about to touch you, but nobody's around? I would imagine that mundanes feel mana spells like that.
Aaron
Check your hymnal; there are smatterings of references to various methods of perceiving magic. And yeah, I play it that magical effects of Force 6 or higher are obvious as being magical: there's a ripple through the air or some such; it doesn't have to be just visual.
Eleazar
Yeah, but that is a lightning bolt, that makes sense. What about a stunbolt, mind probe, control thoughts, and any other spell that doesn't show up in the physical world. They aren't noticing hand gestures because the mage in question doesn't have any geasa. So he wouldn't be making hand gestures. All they have to go by is the intense look of concentration which could mean practically anything. Maybe he is: playing a video game, in a virtual world, reading a book, watching a trid, or any other normal thing which could require an intense look of concentration. What differentiates this from any other intense look of concentration?

Think about it, this is something important to know. It is all about roleplaying. The NPCs or PCs seeing it would respond differently depending. If my character is walking through a slaughter house he is going to smell a very terrible smell because he notices it. The thing that he is noticing is the smell of the blood and meat. In this scenario there is no thing that they are noticing that is sufficient to lead someone to the rational belief that a spell is being cast. They have nothing to go by except the intense look of concentration. Which could actually mean many things other than casting a spell. Especially with the influence of movies with magic in them. All of them have really flashy insane special effects. So wouldn't a mundane be looking for this when they think they see a spell? What about all the misconception mundanes have about magic? Why would the intense look of concentration even signal magic is being used to them, when they expect much more to begin with?

I realize that the spell is being noticed; I just would like to know why and how.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Aaron)
Check your hymnal; there are smatterings of references to various methods of perceiving magic. And yeah, I play it that magical effects of Force 6 or higher are obvious as being magical: there's a ripple through the air or some such; it doesn't have to be just visual.

Mana spells do not create a physical visual cue. A ripple through the air is a visual cue. I did check the hymnal, as you can see by my rather targeted specific questions.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Slump @ Mar 4 2007, 01:39 AM)
Have you ever felt something wierd?  Like someone is about to touch you, but nobody's around?  I would imagine that mundanes feel mana spells like that.

This is definitely a perception test as the rules clearly states. Also, this is not mentioned in the fluff. The sort of sense you described also implies some sort of magic ability to be able to recognize the flow of mana being formed/manipulated. While interesting there is nothing in the RAW or fluff to indicate this.
Konsaki
Remember that perception runs the gambit of Audio, Visual, Scent, Taste and Touch.

So you, as a GM, think that mana spells cant be seen. Ok, what about hearing them though? A mana buildup of 6+ might have a hum of power in the air or maybe send shivers down your spine for apparent reason. You might be able to taste the power in the air or smell it like you might smell lightning in the air.
mfb
it's important to note that someone who succeeds at a perception test to notice a spell being cast notices a spell being cast. that is to say, whatever it is they see, they know it's a spell. they're not going to mistake a stunbolt for a gust of wind or something--they're going to be aware that it's a spell, and if they see the effects of the spell (someone being hit by it), they're going to have a reasonable idea of what type of spell they saw being cast.

beyond that, it doesn't matter what the specific cues are, because they're not going to be mistaken for anything else.
Eleazar
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 4 2007, 01:59 AM)
it's important to note that someone who succeeds at a perception test to notice a spell being cast notices a spell being cast. that is to say, whatever it is they see, they know it's a spell. they're not going to mistake a stunbolt for a gust of wind or something--they're going to be aware that it's a spell, and if they see the effects of the spell (someone being hit by it), they're going to have a reasonable idea of what type of spell they saw being cast.

beyond that, it doesn't matter what the specific cues are, because they're not going to be mistaken for anything else.

This doesn't answer anything I didn't already know. The problem here is the specific cues. So to just toss them away to being inconsequential doesn't make sense. It does matter because this is a roleplaying game. It isn't enough just to say something happens.

I also disagree that they would know what spell is being cast. The text says they notice the magic or force. In order to know the spell being cast they would have to assense it or be familiar with spells themselves, which would require the appropriate knowledge skill. So, the mundane somehow(not really sure) notices magic is in use. Now in the case of stunbolt, if they are in direct observation of the magician casting the spell and the target it is being cast on, they most likely would be able to put two and two together. They notice magic being used and then the target of the spell begins bleeding terribly and his body just viciously contorted. They won't know it is stunbolt, but they will know a combat spell was just cast on the target.
mfb
QUOTE (Eleazar)
This doesn't answer anything I didn't already know. The problem here is the specific cues. So to just toss them away to being inconsequential doesn't make sense. It does matter because this is a roleplaying game. It isn't enough just to say something happens.

in real life, the perceiver would notice the sensory cues of the spells and figure out that a spell is being cast. this, however, is a game, and it must follow game logic in order to better emulate real life. therefore, this is what happens: the perceiver passes his perception check, and as a result knows that a spell is being cast. from that point, the GM and the players must shape their descriptions of the events in order to take that fact into account. if the perceiver passes his test, you don't get to say "well, my spell has no sensory cues." he passed the test, therefore it has sensory cues and it is up to you to decide what those cues are.

which is why i said it doesn't matter what the specific sensory cues are--it's your job to provide descriptions of sensory cues which match the die rolls.

QUOTE (Eleazar)
I also disagree that they would know what spell is being cast.

that's not quite what i said. i said, "they're going to have a reasonable idea of what type of spell is being cast." to put it in your words, they can put two and two together.
Thanee
Spells, like elementals, probably have some visual effect in astral space, which is also visible to much lesser extent physically. A high force effect has a more noticable effect.

Bye
Thanee
the_dunner
QUOTE (Eleazar)
The problem here is the specific cues.

Several people have already given examples of specific cues, but I'll reiterate just in case
  • The hair on the back of their neck stands up.
  • They feel a cold chill in the air.
  • A shiver runs up their spine.
  • They get a sudden rash of goosebumps.
  • They feel their ears burning.
  • There's an odd tingle in the air.
  • They suddenly feel their gut wrench.
  • They get an aching feeling from your bones.
  • They see a movement out of the corner of their eye, when they turn their head, nothing's there.

Basically, any of the classical sensations associated with a paranormal experience. Any of these sensations should be things that are internalized, and the actual experience could probably vary from character to character.
Mistwalker
I have no problem with the spell being noticed, or possibly being noticed.

My question about the whole issue is, could a mundane who noticed something be able to tell who cast the spell, if there are no obvious clues (lightning bolt, power bolt, etc..)?

Example: Mage in the mall, in the food court, apparently listening intently to his spouse critize him. If he casts Mind Probe on a secretary as they walk by (to get the travel itiniary, new password, who has won the ABC contract, etc..). Even if a large number of mundanes noticed, would any be able to ID the hen pecked husband as the mage?
knasser

From a piece of Shadowrun fiction I wrote:

QUOTE

Suddenly it felt as though the world had opened up, that the sky was just a shell and there was another, colder universe just out of sight. The girl in the leathers was still smiling at him, but there was something alien about her now. He shivered as her eyes tracked forms he couldn't see.


But then I portray magic in my game as something sinister and enclosing.
djinni
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Even if a large number of mundanes noticed, would any be able to ID the hen pecked husband as the mage?

think of it like "a ghost"
some people see it others don't.
everyone "sees" it differently.

in your example you have to ask, do you want a real world situation? or a cinematic one.
HullBreach
This would make for an interesting optional rule for 'covert casting'. If a mage wants to cast without drawing notice, I could see giving them a small penalty. However on the other hand, if they make a big show of it (hand gestures chanting etc.) I could see giving them a small bonus.

The happy medium would be somewhere in between with a small hand gesture and some muttering.
Eleazar
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 4 2007, 08:52 AM)
QUOTE (Eleazar @ Mar 4 2007, 02:19 AM)
The problem here is the specific cues.

Several people have already given examples of specific cues, but I'll reiterate just in case

  • The hair on the back of their neck stands up.
  • They feel a cold chill in the air.
  • A shiver runs up their spine.
  • They get a sudden rash of goosebumps.
  • They feel their ears burning.
  • There's an odd tingle in the air.
  • They suddenly feel their gut wrench.
  • They get an aching feeling from your bones.
  • They see a movement out of the corner of their eye, when they turn their head, nothing's there.
Basically, any of the classical sensations associated with a paranormal experience. Any of these sensations should be things that are internalized, and the actual experience could probably vary from character to character.

So I am guessing all of these cues would be directed towards the caster. Otherwise they could mean anything to a mundane. Even with these cues, why does the mundane feel it is magic causing them? Not being able to actually observe anything, what indicates it as magic in use to them? A lot of these cues can easily be doubted as even being real to the mundane or any sort of concrete way to know magic has just been noticed. The RAW paints a picture of noticing magic that is unmistakable to anyone who makes the test. It would be the same as succeeding in a perception test to see a pressure plate. The specific cues you and others gave are smothered with ambiguity and fail to fully answer the question of exactly how the mundane knows it is magic. Such feelings could be caused by many other things. What takes the mundane from observing/feeling these specific cues and leads them to believe magic is being used?

Things like hand gestures, chanting, shamanic mask, and flashy effects make perfect sense. Yet there is nothing to indicate magic being used for your average hermetic without flashy effects and geasa. At least, this is the way it appears. The rules say differently, so where is the fluff that goes along with it.

All of the specific cues mentioned are very acceptable, inventive, and well thought out. But how, as a GM do you explain the situation. I mean, there is something called suspension of belief. Can a GM really expect a player to believe a mundane NPC knew they were casting magic because shivers went up their spine? I understand that currently it is all we have to work with in this sort of situation unless the GM house rules that all spells can manifest physically and thus be perceived.

Looking at it in another way, why wouldn't a mundane always notice someone shooting a lightning bolt out of their hands. I mean a lightning bolt is a lightning bolt whether it is force 1 or force 10. Albeit it might be smaller and harder to see but no way is something like that not going to be seen. Especially when there is a low amount of light. All in all, I have to say this is a rule that needs some tweaking and some way to account for all spells with believability. If that means giving everyone in the Sixth World some sort of "sixth sense", which these specific cues seem to be leading to, then so be it.
Trigger
My thoughts on this is that all magic that a regular mage does takes some sort movement/ speech/ something for the mage to able to direct its will properly to complete the spell. Sure, magic can be done without any signs by the caster, but it is going to be a lot harder on the mage than normal and is probably not going to come out as powerful as if they had done physical part of the casting. The movements aren't neccesary but they help a whole lot. I would grant penalties to mages who try to cast without any signs, also a penalty on the perception test of anyone trying to notice the mage casting. Though I don't know about doing it the other way around, as some movement will help a mage, but anything more is just being excessive and will only get the mage spotted quicker.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Eleazar)
So I am guessing all of these cues would be directed towards the caster. Otherwise they could mean anything to a mundane. Even with these cues, why does the mundane feel it is magic causing them?

Well, it's been 60 years since the awakening. There's been a fair bit of writing in pop culture about how to recognize when your next door neighbor is trying to hex your dog, seduce your spouse, or get rich quick using alchemy. No doubt there are grade school classes that cover the basics on how to recognize magic use. Some of these would probably be instrumental in detecting children who had greater potential for awakening later.
QUOTE
Not being able to actually observe anything, what indicates it as magic in use to them?

All the examples that I gave indicate it. If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something. At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.
QUOTE
The specific cues you and others gave are smothered with ambiguity and fail to fully answer the question of exactly how the mundane knows it is magic.

No. They're smothered in ambiguity in modern times. Modern times where we do not have magic. In a world where magic has been in active use for 60 years, they have a meaning that's abundantly clear.
QUOTE
Can a GM really expect a player to believe a mundane NPC knew they were casting magic because shivers went up their spine?

Yes, absolutely. Remember, magic has been back for 60 years. It's kind of like asking somebody today how they know that there are TV signals being broadcast through the air if they haven't turned on a TV. (Well, kind of. It's not a great example, but it's what I can come up with.)
QUOTE
Looking at it in another way, why wouldn't a mundane always notice someone shooting a lightning bolt out of their hands.

Because the lightning doesn't have to shoot out of their hands. The lightning strike happens to the target, it doesn't have to arc from the caster to the target. In D&D, it's explicitly spelled out that a magic-user physically throws a fireball or a mage holds his hands just so to launch a magic missile. That's not the case in Shadowrun. For example:
QUOTE (SR4 Core p. 197)
These spells create an explosion of flames that flash into existence and scorch the target(s). These spells deal Fire damage

In Shadowrun, the lightning bolt could just erupt from the heavens, a nearby lightbulb, or a power outlet. Similarly, a Shadowrun fireball could just form and explode on the oil drum next to the target. The one that had a bullet ricochet off of it a fraction of a second earlier.

Does that make a little more sense?
Eleazar
QUOTE (the_dunner)
All the examples that I gave indicate it. If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something. At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.

Are there any more insults you would like to throw into this objective discussion I am trying to have with the Dumpshock community?
Konsaki
QUOTE (Eleazar)
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 4 2007, 06:47 PM)
All the examples that I gave indicate it.  If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something.  At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.

Are there any more insults you would like to throw into this objective discussion I am trying to have with the Dumpshock community?

*Brzzt* Oh... I'm sorry, but thanks for playing 'Call Out'. the_dunner hasn't actually insulted you yet, so that means you lose the game. The exit is just over there. Have a nice day.
Mistwalker
@ the Dunner

I have no problem with mundanes being able to notice that magic is being done.
What I would like to know, is, would they be able to notice who was doing the magic, if the caster was being discreet?
djinni
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
What I would like to know, is, would they be able to notice who was doing the magic, if the caster was being discreet?

ask yourself "why not?"
instead of wondering if they can find evidence and discussion to prove to yourself that they cannot.
Mistwalker
I can live with it either way.

The caster could have that otherwordly "feeling" about them as they cast, the same way that spirits are noticible (unless using special powers).

I just wanted to know what the official, or semi-official ruling is. That will allow me to design adventures in a way that is more inline with the RAW.
DireRadiant
You make a perception test, you succeed. What do you see?

You see MAGIC!...

You see someone shoot someone, do we have rules in the book for exactly what you see about the gun in the hand, the bullet leaving the barrel, the explosive gases leaving the barrel, the bullet spinnng as it flies through the air, the tears int eh flsh as it strikes the target, the blood and bones being destroyed?

Or do you just tell the player, "You see so and so shoot someone?"

If the player really wants to know what the heck magic effect they noticed, I'd simply ask, "Well, what do you think magic looks like? That's what you see!"

Or we can come up with about 32 pages of magic perception rules and the neat special effects for each spell and tradition.
toturi
QUOTE (Konsaki)
QUOTE (Eleazar @ Mar 5 2007, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 4 2007, 06:47 PM)
All the examples that I gave indicate it.  If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something.  At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.

Are there any more insults you would like to throw into this objective discussion I am trying to have with the Dumpshock community?

*Brzzt* Oh... I'm sorry, but thanks for playing 'Call Out'. the_dunner hasn't actually insulted you yet, so that means you lose the game. The exit is just over there. Have a nice day.

Given that he just accused a moderator of insulting him (when most of us wouldn't have thought that dunner's post was insulting, harsh but not insulting) and that moderator is one of the guys in charge of the official SR4 campaign (which means his house rules/rules interpretations, to me, are as good as RAW itself), well... you do not argue with God. Not if you want to work in this town.
fistandantilus4.0
A certain amount of story telling is going to have to go into describing the effects of any spell. Like the dunner said, a fireball can simply spring in to being right at it's target. It can also vary from tradition.

As an example, there's a part in one of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time books (I think book 7 or so, when the Aes Sedai are casting along side with women they foudn in the port that had all been runaways, against the Seanchan, sorry can't remember what they called he group). Anyways, the Aes Sedai, when they threew fireballs, would wind up liek they were chucking a basebasll, and throw the ball of fire. Where as the other women, who were used to having to cast in secret, just stood there while balls of fire erupted out of no where and sped at the target.

So there is no clear cut "This is what happens" because there is no preset and determined way magic works for everyone in shadowrun. It varies by tradition, it varies within tradition, it varies by force, possibly by what foci are being used. Take what suggestinos have been given here, incorporate a few of your own,and see what you can make. Make something that works with your interpretation of the world.
Eleazar
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Mar 5 2007, 08:05 AM)
QUOTE (Eleazar @ Mar 5 2007, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 4 2007, 06:47 PM)
All the examples that I gave indicate it.  If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something.  At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.

Are there any more insults you would like to throw into this objective discussion I am trying to have with the Dumpshock community?

*Brzzt* Oh... I'm sorry, but thanks for playing 'Call Out'. the_dunner hasn't actually insulted you yet, so that means you lose the game. The exit is just over there. Have a nice day.

Given that he just accused a moderator of insulting him (when most of us wouldn't have thought that dunner's post was insulting, harsh but not insulting) and that moderator is one of the guys in charge of the official SR4 campaign (which means his house rules/rules interpretations, to me, are as good as RAW itself), well... you do not argue with God. Not if you want to work in this town.

Moderators, GMs, or any authority figure for that matter is not a god. Moderator's are humans just like the rest of us. Just because I see Moderator next to someones name does not mean I have to agree with every single opinion they write on these forums. It also doesn't mean I can't discuss these opinions or even debate them. Yes, I realize he has a lot of experience with Shadowrun, much more than myself. The thing I am failing to see with his posts is any indication or implication in the RAW or fluff of Shadowrun supporting his views as far as a mundane noticing magic. It is very possible that he has yet to reveal where he is getting this information, but until this information is present, I really have no way of knowing. He has also to yet, as far as I know, to claim such information can be found in a Shadowrun source.

So far I disagree with the opinions given because I don't feel they adequately explain how a mundane notices the magic. Let me reiterate this again since it seems to have been missed, I am not disagreeing that the magic is noticed. As I said this is very obvious from just reading the RAW. Somethings is being noticed, yes, we all agree here. I want to know what. Currently you would have me believe something that is the equivalent of detecting an enemy with complete invisibility, that has no smell, makes no sound, has no taste, and can't be touched. Yet somehow this enemy is able to be detected through the equivalent of Spiderman's "spider sense". I don't think mundanes have this "spider sense" and this sense in itself sounds rather non mundane to me.

The only time in Shadowrun I can think of where a mundane can even notice magic in a likewise way is when a spirit or astrally projecting character passes through their aura. This fluff makes sense to me. Though to even notice such a thing the NPC would have to be specially trained. It clearly states in the book this isn't something everyone knows, especially not your average joe. So I find it rather unlikely that they would be able to notice magic in the same way as astral detection, unless trained. If such a sense for noticing magic were to even "go off" likewise to something passing through their aura they wouldn't even know how to interpret it. If what the_dunner says about the schools training mundanes to notice magic, then why isn't this done for astral detection? Why do security teams need to be trained for astral detection to realize the tingling feeling is in fact a spirit or an astrally projecting mage? What if the mundanes didn't go to school? Then would that mean they have no way of knowing? Or would they just have to happen upon learning it from the street? The RAW encompasses every single mundane, yet your example could leave a great degree of mundanes without the adequate knowledge to be capable of interpreting the tingling. The RAW doesn't state such an education is necessary to notice magic, otherwise it would have stated noticing magic is something open for interpretation, relying on the proper education of the mundane to notice the magic.


Lastly, do not try to tell me when or when not I have been insulted. This is what the_dunner said,

"All the examples that I gave indicate it. If the character makes a perception test, then they noticed something. At this point, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling."

This wasn't in anyway necessary. At the very worst he is directly calling me deliberately obtuse or a troll. At the very best he is suggesting I am being deliberately obtuse or a troll if I disagree with him. Either way you look at it is an insult. Though if the latter were true then he would have said,

"At this point IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, I think you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling."

Since this was not said or even implied the former is all I have to go by. Not only that, it was rather obvious from the discussion that the_dunner and I have been in disagreement. So yes, I take this as an insult. I can't see any other purpose or reason the_dunner would have for even putting such a statement in his post to begin with. It wasn't even necessary to get his point across, nor very effective for that matter. If this is not an insult then maybe one of you members that knows the_dunner's personality can educate me on exactly how this isn't an insult. Yes, I am actually being serious.


Lastly, I am not trying to troll; I just don't agree with everything said. I most definitely do not think anyone here is an idiot or incapable of providing an intelligent answer to my questions or comments. I realize many of you here are long time Dumpshock members and a respect your opinions. Just because someone disagrees with another person is no reason for hostility towards that person and it doesn't mean the person in disagreement thinks lesser of anyone they disagree with. In a discussion and especially a debate people will disagree. I am sure most of you feel this last paragraph is unnecessary, but I just want to make sure I am not being misunderstood.
mfb
QUOTE (Eleazar)
Yet there is nothing to indicate magic being used for your average hermetic without flashy effects and geasa.

you've said this several times. where is it backed up in the rules? the fact that it's so easy to notice magic says, to me, that high-end magic does have some sort of flashy or otherwise easily-noticed effects, no matter who casts it.
fistandantilus4.0
Actually I thought most of the rest of the post was unecessary. If you want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue. Don't spend a very long post saying why you're upset.
hyzmarca
According to the RAW, a mundane noticing a spell being cast would notice the intense look of concentration. For a big spell, this is a very big look of concentration A Force 10 stunbolt is going to produce a DBZ constipation squint or something equivalent in the vast majority of magicians because manipulating the massive amount of mana required to power a Force 10 spell takes an extraordinary amount of concentration.

I'll suggest checking out a television series called Heroes for a good example of this. The character known as Hiro has the power to teleport and stop time, but ding so requires a great deal of concentration. Although no one but him can be aware of what happens when he stops time, it is quite obvious when he is about to do so because of his intense look of concentration, a giant DBZ constipation squint, which precedes the timestop by a couple of seconds.

Eleazar
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
A certain amount of story telling is going to have to go into describing the effects of any spell. Like the dunner said, a fireball can simply spring in to being right at it's target. It can also vary from tradition.

As an example, there's a part in one of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time books (I think book 7 or so, when the Aes Sedai are casting along side with women they foudn in the port that had all been runaways, against the Seanchan, sorry can't remember what they called he group). Anyways, the Aes Sedai, when they threew fireballs, would wind up liek they were chucking a basebasll, and throw the ball of fire. Where as the other women, who were used to having to cast in secret, just stood there while balls of fire erupted out of no where and sped at the target.

So there is no clear cut "This is what happens" because there is no preset and determined way magic works for everyone in shadowrun. It varies by tradition, it varies within tradition, it varies by force, possibly by what foci are being used. Take what suggestinos have been given here, incorporate a few of your own,and see what you can make. Make something that works with your interpretation of the world.

Yep, this sounds like this best advice that can be given considering my POV. Unless of course someone has something else in mind. I think the best way for this ends up being the easiest. This would be to do what Thanee said and have it show up visibly when the force gets so high. Even though the description in noticing magic says that spirits and spells have little, if any visible effect in the physical world. The example for noticing the spell is actually them not noticing the spell or the effect of it, but noticing the spell being "worked up". So it doesn't agree completely with the RAW, but I like it.
fistandantilus4.0
You could also take the Final Fantasy approach if you'd like. Some aura of magic springs in to being or some such.
apollo124
How about a sudden feeling of dread for no apparent reason? I know this sounds like the old "shivers down the spine" thing, but I think it would work. Magic might be noticeable to a mundane by feeling a sudden, inexplicable tightness in their breathing or feeling of terror or heat, cold, static electricity. Someone might feel the spell beginning to work on their brain (illusions and mind affecting spells) or their body (calcify, levitate, treat, etc..)
Eleazar
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 5 2007, 12:01 AM)
Actually I thought most of the rest of the post was unecessary. If you want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue. Don't spend a very long post saying why you're upset.

***THIS POST IS ONLY ANSWERING fistandantilus3.0 post as quoted***
***You don't have to read this.***

In my point of view it was necessary due to others getting involved in the situation, then making statements I interpreted to be false, thus, in my mind, requiring a response. Sure I could have chosen to say nothing, but I didn't see that as an option due to the circumstances. I can assure you that I would very much like to not have to post anymore on those matters. But, if another post revisits said circumstances, I would find it necessary to give response.

The only reason I felt it necessary to even explain myself was due to my statements being questioned and/or portrayed as baseless in the first place.

I apologize for your inconvenience, though I can't assure you I wouldn't act in the same demeanor if such circumstances were to arise again. In the future I will have the courtesy to give warning in the post and mark off the section which deals with a sidebar discussion. Hopefully this will be sufficient as to not inconvenience you or others a second time in the unfortunate event such a response becomes necessary.
fistandantilus4.0
You can just PM me if you'd like to keep it private.

The best way to avoid an arguement, is to simply avoid an arguement.

Don't feed the fire, just move on. I know it's easier said than done at times, but please do try. That pretty much goes for everyone.
Ravor
Well I do remember reading in the Fluff mages going on and on about how that although most mage do make gestures, chant, ect, that it is possible to kill with a mere glance, so personally I think I'd tend towards the mundane getting a 'spidey sense', and here is why;

It is my understanding from reading about Earthdawn that as the mana levels rise everyone will awaken in one way or another, so although a mundane isn't considered awakened at the current mana levels, the gathering of mana needed for those big spells is enough to spark the deeply hidden seed of magic that is actually inside us all. At least enough to notice where the spell came from if he made his perception check.
Thane36425
The way I handle was that mana spells were very hard, if not impossible to see. Physical spells, slighlty more obvious. Indirect spells that require a roll to hit probably are visible, particularly since SR3 and earlier said that the spells were affected by physical barriers and the like.

So, a mage throwing a stunbolt would exhibit the look of concentration. If powerful enough, say Force 6 and up, there might be a slight distortion around the casting mage. A Powerbolt spell would be a little more noticable. Throwing a fireball would probably look like throwing a baseball as mentioned above. That presentatin could vary with tradition and personal tastes. One mage might actually throwing burning red baseballs while another threw flaming green skulls, while one with a sense of humor could throw smiley faces with slight variations for the spell in question.
toturi
QUOTE (Eleazar)
Moderators, GMs, or any authority figure for that matter is not a god. Moderator's are humans just like the rest of us. Just because I see Moderator next to someones name does not mean I have to agree with every single opinion they write on these forums. It also doesn't mean I can't discuss these opinions or even debate them. Yes, I realize he has a lot of experience with Shadowrun, much more than myself. The thing I am failing to see with his posts is any indication or implication in the RAW or fluff of Shadowrun supporting his views as far as a mundane noticing magic. It is very possible that he has yet to reveal where he is getting this information, but until this information is present, I really have no way of knowing. He has also to yet, as far as I know, to claim such information can be found in a Shadowrun source.

Which part of "which means his house rules/rules interpretations, to me, are as good as RAW itself" was unclear?

He might even be scrapping it off the walls, but since he is one of the guys in charge of SRM, I'd give his opinions as much weight as I would give a SR4 writer. And since to me, RAW=Canon, then SRM guy=writer=voice of God biggrin.gif .
Rotbart van Dainig
So you are hearing voices, then? nyahnyah.gif
DireRadiant
How does a character hear a sound?
How does a character see something?
How does a character feel something?
How does a character taste something?
How does a character sense magic?

It's not described in the book!

It's a new sense for a new thing, Magic!

I can't figure out what to tell the character because I personally can't sense magic myself, so I must ask other people if they can tell me what they see when they see magic!
Konsaki
To my knowledge, all a mage has to do to cast a spell, barring any geas, is see/touch the area/target and concentrate.

That being said, IMO, any mundane who notices a spell has been cast would perceive the effects of the spell, but probably wouldn't know who cast the spell unless it was plainly obvious. (IE the mage is the only one there or the mage touched the target)
The inderect combat spells just say the effect happens at the target and nothing about having the effect start at the caster and run to the target. Here is a quote from the Flamethrower and Fireball spells.

QUOTE
These spells create an explosion of flames that flash into existence and scorch the target(s). These spells deal Fire damage (see p. 155).
These flames burn out after striking the target, but their secondary effects may ignite flammable materials that will continue to burn after the spell is exhausted.
Flamethrower is a single target spell, while Fireball is an area spell.


Nothing in there about a line of fire or throwing a ball of fire. IMO, alot of people see 'Magic' and automaticly think the effects work the same as D&D magic, which isnt how magic in SR works. At least that's my two CAS cents.
knasser
QUOTE (toturi)
Which part of "which means his house rules/rules interpretations, to me, are as good as RAW itself" was unclear?

He might even be scrapping it off the walls, but since he is one of the guys in charge of SRM, I'd give his opinions as much weight as I would give a SR4 writer. And since to me, RAW=Canon, then SRM guy=writer=voice of God biggrin.gif .


You might. I certainly wouldn't. There is no authority attached to being a developer or a moderator. More experience in the former case, more power in the latter. But reason to accept something disagreed with? Not at all.
Kenshi
I love threads like this!

Bottomline: You can't make a rule for absolutely everything. It all comes down to GM discretion. There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread but in the end, it's up to how you want to interpret the rules. Do you want to have mundanes be able to see magic? There's no reason to get upset because you're not getting the answer you want.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Kenshi)
I love threads like this!

Bottomline: You can't make a rule for absolutely everything. It all comes down to GM discretion. There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread but in the end, it's up to how you want to interpret the rules. Do you want to have mundanes be able to see magic? There's no reason to get upset because you're not getting the answer you want.

That's a good point. Take Shamanic Masks. In SR4, the rules say you can have it or not. In the old versions, you always did and it always showed, to one degree or another. I usually played with a variant that you could show it or not.

For exmple: If you were in a hostage situation with multiple targets, a Shamanic Mask showing up would get you killed. The Totem would know this and it stands to reason would allow the effect to be suppressed to keep the Shaman alive if they took action. On the other hand, the mask could be exaggerated for shock effect to frighten the enemy.

In the first case, having some of their number start dropping would be a shock, but they would soon figure out it was magic. The Shaman would be much harder to pick out of the hostages without his head looking like an animal.

In the second case, if confronted by a bunch of gangers or a group of like quality, a Shaman's Mask would leave no doubt that they faced a mage. Seeing that lone person's features suddenly change into a human animal hybrid with magic crackling all around them could very well make them turn tail and run.
Spike
Well, I'm going to have to do some reading in order to really sink my teeth into this, but I'll weigh in with opinion to get my hat in the ring.

To me it's reasonably sensible. While Geasa and such are necessary if you have them, that isn't to say they don't exist for mages who don't have them.

If a simple perception check can show a mundane who has just cast a spell, even one that is techically 'invisible' then obviously there is something to see other than 'squinty face'.

Mages naturally will make hand gestures, maybe get a bit of mana-glow or some such, even may say something, without thinking about it. Casting magic without doing any of these things is possible, certainly. Cue debates on how hard/easy it should be for a bound and gagged mage to cast their mojo about.

But it's not natural or easy to do 'nothing' when summoning all that mojo and forcing it into shape. It would be impossible to actually do it while carrying on a normal conversation. The perception check means the mage DID do something distinctly magelike, and the guy that rolled noticed it. Doesn't matter if the mage was trying to do 'nothing obvious'. They started focusing on their magic and lost track of 'keeping hands steady and 'not chanting the third lay of fuck a brutha up' and the rest is history.
eidolon
Interesting take. I tend along the "subtle ripples of mana cause your hair to stand up on end" or some such than anything physical on the caster's part. Really though, all that matters mechanically is that there is something to notice and that you can notice it. The whats and hows are GM purview and immaterial to the fact IMO. Fill it in with what you like and move on to other things. Like the whats and hows of how you're going to geek the mage you just noticed casting. biggrin.gif
Mistwalker
Ah, but that is part of the issue.

You notice something, but do you notice "who" just cast the spell, or just that a spell was cast?

I think I will go with noticing the spell, but not necessarilty knowing who cast it.
Konsaki
I would just say that you know that a spell was cast and maybe who was the target of the spell based on a shimmer. I wouldn't give away who cast the spell unless there was a geas involved or it's just plainly obvious that no one else could have casted it. (IE the mage is the only one there in the room with you)
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