Here is my take as a GM. A physical spell would be quite obvious at higher force because it manifest on the physical plane. Mana spells would be obvious on the target at higher levels, especially the damage variety, because of the effect. Force 10 stunbolt, mage uses edge, gets +8 net hits doing 18 damage will cause blood to pure from victims orifices. This amount of magic power would definite rip through the astral and physical saying magic is in use. People's heads don't usually implode on their own for no reason. I like the DBZ focus that someone came up with. I think in the case mention above the mage definitely would have made a brick in his pants, giving an odor aspect to the visual concentration required. Mental activity at high levels usually have some sort of physical connection. Zoning completely out with a blank stare, to sweating profusely, a slight rocking back and forth, to maybe even a twitching of the eye rapidly. Each person would exhibit something that fits their character.

I think that what is at question here are people's different RPG experience. Some systems spell out everything, while other leave more to GM interpretation. Everything really comes down to having fun to me. Any time rules start to get in the way of role-playing and storytelling, I think it is time to bend them some. Well, there is my 2¥ worth.

-- You wanted an argument? Oh, I'm sorry, but this is abuse, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor

Nice Monty Python reference there.

But you're not arguing, you're just contradicting me.

But that is the start of an argument... Either that or we have to have a misunderstanding to start one off.

Uh... per RAW p. 168, you don't notice magic.
You notice someone using magical skills.

Indeed.

I love that last one

It wasnt a horse at all, it was the protagonist's sidekicks in a horse costume.

I agree. I don't think that 's what the statement is intended for and I'd hit anyone that did this with my BBB. Assuming they're within book-smacking distance of course. Some of the coolest games I've seen where ones where the Big Bad Villian bought it in a very quick and unexpected way. I don't think the "ignore rules" rule should ever be used in a way that totally screws the PCs. Defeats the whole purpose of the game.

cool. just clarifying.

In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I don't think that using magic "looks like" anything. It doesn't show up on film, and it doesn't go out over the trid phone.

People get a perception test to notice sorcery. But there's no perception test to notice sorcery that has been recorded. People are alive and a little bit in tune with Astral Space whether they are currently astrally perceiving or not. Awakened people, who are more in tune with magic, have a correspondingly easier time detecting its use.

But the sense you are detecting it with isn't "sight" or "taste" it's your "living sense" - more like your "empathy". There's no modifier to your chance to notice Sorcery just because you've never seen sorcery in yor whole life - it's instinctual. It's a sense you never use, but as soon as you're confronted with something in it there is no doubt in your mind.

If a man casts a Force 6 Manabolt, another man will fall over dead. And every single other person in the room will know who did it. But it won't "look like" anything.

-Frank

Shows the 'Physical Mask/Trid/Entertainment' spells to Frank.
They do show up on film, cameras and other media if the spell is designed for it. Things like Fireball and other indirect combat spells should be the same since they are dealing with real elements that can be caught on video in real life.

Ok, I agree with you there. I think I misread the previous post. My apologies.

In regards to the original topic:

A successful sorcery perception test means, in that single instance, a mundane correctly determined that sorcery had been used based on what s/he could perceive. It does not require that a mundane must be capable of sensing magic or even recognizing magic on a regular basis. Think about perception tests from the opposite point of view. A failed visual perception test, for example, doesn't mean someone is blind. It just means at the time they could notice something visually they failed to do so.

Now, if you're hung up on delving into how a mundane noticed, I can think of two appropriate ways...



The first has already been said: intense concentration. The signs of this could be veins popping out on the forehead, the arteries in the eyes standing out, breaking into a sweat, audibly straining (a quiet, sustained groan for example), physically shaking, gritted teeth, and so on.

Remember, although a mage is not physically doing anything to cast a spell, the act of doing so is very taxing on the body. Outside of decking/rigging, there is no activity a mundane can perform with their mind that causes stun damage. It stands to reason that magic use is the most taxing mental activity possible without mechanical aid. Add to that the fact that a spell only takes 2 or 3 seconds to cast. It's not unreasonable to believe that a mundane could perceive magic use under these conditions.

Your character sees a woman turn deep red and, almost simultaneously, a security guard falls over. She doesn't seem surprised. Your character passes his sorcery perception test. All that success means is that your character correctly determines, based on the course of events and/or woman's behavior afterwards, that the woman has cast a spell. If your character failed the perception test, s/he might simply be confused about what just happened

Perception is not about your senses working properly. Perception is the proper interpretation of the data fed to you by your senses.



Now, if you don't like that, there's an alternate approach that might work.

First, remember that all mundanes are capable of perceiving things which occur on the astral. They are vastly inferior to awakened beings, but that doesn't change the fact they can do so. The Wuxing tower, for example, focuses mana flow so effectively that it's visible to mundanes. (Unfortunately I can't recall which book brings that up.) Likewise, there are numerous examples of mundanes' sixth sense being triggered which have already been listed.

Next, consider that things which occur astrally are not directional. You couldn't sneak up from behind a mage's astral form because it doesn't really have sides. Projecting mages are aware of whatever they're capable of being aware of, based solely on astral perception. A mage may "see" another mage's astral form as a troll in medieval armor, but what they are really perceiving is how the person in range sees themselves inside.

So what does this lead to? All mundanes could be treated as having a sixth sense, based on some of the scraps of information provided about the SR universe. They wouldn't see, hear, smell, feel, or taste a spell being cast. Instead, they would sense what happened on a mental level. That's why psychic abilities are called the "sixth sense;" because they are a source of information in addition to the other five senses. Unfortunately, books tend to try to describe magic-based perception in terms of other senses, to help people figure out how to RP it. It tends to lead to people leaping to the conclusion that mages just have better senses than other people instead of an additional sense.

Let's call this sixth sense "psychic perception," just to avoid confusion with existing terms in the book. Treat psychic perception as a completely different sense from the RL five senses. It works like a radiation detector and you are instinctively able to interpret information from it. This will make RPing sorcery perception a great deal easier. Awakened characters have way, way better psychic perception than anyone else and can actively control it. Mundanes have terrible, involuntary psychic perception. Under certain circumstances (or just blind luck), it goes off and they correctly interpret what it tells them.

If you have trouble imagining how it works, treat it as augmenting any of the other senses. Maybe a mundane would interpret the signals from it and imagine seeing the magic. Maybe they'd interpret it by hearing the voice of someone from their childhood shouting what happened and who did it. Maybe they'd just feel a cold chill that gets worse when they look at the caster. The point is, they'd get the information (during a successful test), then their brain would present it to them in a way that they come to the correct conclusion.



I hope that helps.

Heres a question, if someone casts influence on you, and you fail the resistance check but succeed the check to notice they are using magic, what happens?

That's a tough question. If I was the GM, I'd rule that you forget you noticed (at least until breaking the spell), because influence forcefully redirects your train of thought as part of how it functions. Still, there's a lot of room for interpretation.

Perhaps you reconize it was magic, but you don't care at the moment. Perhaps later when you're wondering why you did something so stupid, you relize they cast a spell on you right about the time you did something you wouldn't normally do.

Put 2-and-2 together and you get a good vendetta.

Yeah, exactly. It's just like any other information you might lose track of... because you suddenly "decide" to patrol somewhere else, despite being in the middle of questioning a trespasser.