[X] My Assistant

[mfb]

my opinion is that having the absolute maximum be achievable at chargen is poor game design. in that, i agree with the OP. however, trying to fix that by removing the caps will only cause more problems, given the game mechanics of SR4.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'm not so sure. I like this "Self-Actualization" system.

Remember, Shadowrun is as much Fantasy as it is Cyberpunk. Mages shoulden't be the only ones pushing themselves to the limits and beyond.

Besides, even with this in place, Mundanes still get hosed. They get what, an additional point in a mundane attribute, which they have to buy up with Karma? Mages get another point of MAGIC... I'm not sure it's comperable.

[TheOOB]

Self-Aculization is really inefficant karma-wise on purpose. Most players will never use it, but it does give them the option to improve their abilities beyond normal limits if they are willing to dedicate themselves to it.

Some people would be willing to spend 19 karma to gain the ability to spend even more karma to get a stat raised.

[Glyph]

I don't like this set of house rules - I have never liked "special advantages" for mundanes.

I admit that being able to reach the hard cap in a skill at char-gen is a sore spot for me, but that still leaves lots of room for lateral advancement for mundane characters. If I want higher skill caps to give characters something to strive for, I will use Frank's house rules.

[Guest_Taotao_*]

Tweaking edge rules is a simple and solid way to beef up mundanes if needed. Have awakened characters regain edge slower or have lower limit for their edge attribute than mundanes. Still, 99% of all campaigns shouldn't have any problems with magic 10+ characters.

[toturi]

[Ryu]

I do not agree that mundanes need support in the first place.

They are able to reach the top at chargen, yes. And any player who does that better had lateral advancement in mind, else he will suffer from a lack of char development.

An option like this would only be required if the mundane had no options to get things done. That is not the case. Yes, at some theoretical point the mage will do everything and magic too. But that point won´t be reached in most campaigns.

[mfb]

[Garrowolf]

One of the biggest pushes for cyberware is to reach a level that magic and metahumans have. You shouldn't do anything to take that away.

Personally I am finding that I like Edge less and less. I find that it takes some of the grittiness of the setting away. If anything it should be capped lower not higher.

[Narmio]

Er, guys, "be one with yourself", "push your body beyond the normal limit" and "achieve personal unity" stuff is represented in game by buying up skills and attributes, and then taking the Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute qualities.

Besides, this system really doesn't make any sense. Focussing on how normal you are and revelling in your mediocrity shouldn't make you better, just depressed.

If someone wanted to do this kind of *concept* in my game, then they get Latent Awakening(Adept) and their powers manifest through that.

[Garrowolf]

Also Self actualization is about as far from cyberpunk as you can get.

I asked her where the self help section was and she told me, "That would defeat the point!"

[Steak and Spirit...]

The concept sounds workable. Anything that allows Mundanes to compete at only a fraction of where Awakened Character's can compete is awesome, in my book. As it stands right now, the Fanpro explanation doesn't cut: "Yes, we know that Awakened Characters are powerful, to a game breaking extent, so instead of really attempting to balance anything, we're just going to put that all on the shoulders of the GM."

Bullshit.

I'm going to give it another glance over, in a little bit. But on the surface, it looks cool, and like a workable concept. And don't let all the naysayer's drag you down. Sperethiel, and Elven Wine are less cyberpunk than this is - And somehow they passes the sniff-test into canon.

Punk is all about attitude, anyway. Example.

Two identically dressed kids are standing on a street corner. The first turns to the second and says, "Hey, what's punk?"

The second glances at the first, takes a step steps to his right, and kicks over some trashcans, and smashes their sides in under heel. He says, "That's punk."

The first kid walks over to those trashcans, finds one still standing up, and kicks it over. He starts bashing it in with his boot. "So this is punk, huh?"

Before the second kid can put a look of disgust on his face, and walk away, he responds, "No, dipshit. That's just fucking trendy."

[Farceseer Sirana...]

I personally don't see the need for this. I just put a maximum of nine on the magic attribute. To initiate/submerge costs karma, and to fill in the space opened up in the respective attribute takes more karma. I, myself, am much harder on non-mundanes. This I think makes up for them being a bit better than the normals. My gamers know that drain is a bitch.

Every GM has their own way of dealing with older characters. If you feel this will work with your style and your gamers. Then by all means go for it.

[hyzmarca]

Personally, I think that the better method of balancing mundanes with physads, magicians, and technomancers is to expand the cyberware selection (which will be done soon, hopefully), include more pieces that provide bonus dice without increasing the base stat and remove the lower limit from essence.

If you have PC mages with 12 magic then they'd still have trouble against a street sam with -6 essence.

[Farceseer Sirana...]

That's a neat idea. Make essence a stat that you can increase. I'd say upto a maximum of nine. Like the other attributes.

[hyzmarca]

Increasing essence just makes magicians that much more powerful because the magic rating is capped at Essence(rounded down)+grade. It also destroys flavor. The fact that essence cannot be increased without vampirism is an important part of the universe. My idea is to allow essence to drop below zero without killing the character. This is already possible in canon and gives the test subject some great anti-magic powers, too. By canon, it is messy, expensive, rare, and it drastically shortens the life of the subject. However, there is no reason why the procedure couldn't have been refined to the point of being commercially viable at some point during the previous five years.

[TheOOB]

Acually, magic is capped at 6+initiation grade, you just lose 1 point of magic for every point of essence you lose or fraction there of.

[Ravor]

Well I'd say that the reason for that is that Essence is also capped at 6, raising the Essence cap without also raising the Magic cap just doesn't wash in my opinion.

[TheOOB]

The fact that essence and magic both cap at 6 normally is coincidental.

You could, instead of raising essence, give "virtual essence" that can only be used to instal cyberware.

[hyzmarca]

It isn't coincidental, it was an integral part of the system back in 1989. Up until SR4, magic always equaled Essence + Grade (-loss, if any). Incidentally, this made vampire magicians even more absurdly powerful than they are in SR4.
It is an important part of the flavor that magic and essence are tied together in some inexplicable way.


And magic is capped at Essence +grade in SR4. Losing a point of essence doesn't just reduce the character's current magic, it also reduces the character's magic cap.
This is an important distinction because if the cap wasn't reduced then the magician could just buy another point of magic to replace the one lost, just like one can buy back burnt Edge.
The system is set up so that a magician who gets Cyberware has to initiate just to make up for the reduced magic cap and a magician who loses more than 5 points of essence can never initiate again.

[mfb]

[Ravor]

[Farceseer Sirana...]

[Ravor]

Ah, but something to consider is that since Essence starts at 6 and can never be raised by metahumans the following statements are all true...

Magic = 6 + Grade - Loss

Magic = Essence + Grade - Loss

Resonance = 6 + Submersion - Loss

Resonance = Essence + Submersion - Loss

Also worth noting is that once a Mage/Technomancer has lost more then 5 Points of Essence they can no longer Initate or Submerge and that freezes their max Magic / Resonance.

And also, although yes, we are talking about 4th Edition, but the precidents left by the previous editions are still there and should be given weight, espeically when following said precidents doesn't change a single fragging thing for metahumans in a normal non-house ruled game.

*Edit*

Oh, and once again exactly what logical 'Fluff' are you going to use to explain why mundanes are able to raise their Essence, virtual or not while Awakened can't?

[hyzmarca]

I still have no idea why creating a brand new raising essence, which completely destroys the flavor of the game that has been established over the past 18 years, is somehow better than toning down the pre-existing cybermancy mechanics so that negative essence characters are viable in a high-level campaign.