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TheOOB
Self-Actualization

The awakened initiate to deepen their connection with the magical world, technomancers submerge to deeper their connection with the digital, both have a theoretically infinite power level. There is no hard limit to the amount of power they can obtain, so long as they keep gaining karma, they can continue growing more powerful.

Mundanes, on the other hand, have a hard limit on the amount of power they can obtain. Once they have topped off all the skills and attributes relevant to their fields, and are equipped with the most wiz gear and cyberware on the market, there is not much more they can do to improve their power level.

I purpose that we allow mundanes to achieve “Self-Actualization”, and continue to advance their abilities much in the same way that the awakened and technomancers initiate and submerge. Rather then obtain a deeper connection with a parallel world from which they draw their power, then instead create a deeper connection with themselves, working to unify mind and body with the ultimate goal of reaching perfection.

Only characters who do not have the adept, magician, mystic adept, technomancer, or any other qualities that would allow them to initiate or submerge may self-actualize. Self-Actualization is a serious process in which the mundane deepens their connection with themselves and strives to improve both their mind and body. The exact process used to self-actualize varies greatly between person to person, but it is always a deeply personal experience where they strive to push their abilities beyond their normal limits. A street samurai may train extensively in a dojo for an extended period of time, a hacker may spend weeks logged into the matrix trying to find themselves, and an artist may create a great work in a new style.

Self-Actualization is measure in grades, beginning with Grade 1 and increasing. At the end of the characters first self-actualization they achieve self-actualization Grade 1, when they complete their second they achieve self-actualization Grade 2 and so on. The grades are for tracking self-actualization in game terms, every person refers to self-actualization in their own way. The cost to self-actualize is 15 + (Grade x 4) in Karma points. Characters who wish to self-actualize must pay that cost to advance to the next grade.

Self-Actualization Powers
Becoming self-actualized gives the character access to the following abilities.

Increased Attributes
Whenever a character achieves a new grade of self-actualization they may choose one physical or mental attribute and raise their natural maximum for that attribute by 1. They will still have to pay normally to increase that attribute.

Upon achieving self-actualization Grade 1 a character may choose either a mental or physical attribute to increase the natural maximum of, starting with Grade 2 and every grade thereafter they must choose a different type of attribute(physical or mental) to raise the maximum of then they did when they achieved their previous grade. For example is Joe the street samurai chooses to raise the maximum of a physical attribute when reaching self-actualization Grade 1, upon reaching Grade 2 he must choose a mental attribute to raise the maximum of, Grade 3 physical, Grade 4 mental, and so on.

Techniques
A self-actualized character may choose one of the following techniques at each self-actualizion grade (including the first). Unless otherwise noted no technique may be chosen more then once. Help in creating more techniques would be appriciated.

Haste: When the character spends Edge to increase their number of initiative passes the extra initiative passes last a number of combat rounds equal to their Edge attribute.

Lucky Bastard: The characters maximum for their Edge attribute increases by 1. They still must raise their edge via spending karma as normal. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Skill Focus: Upon taking this technique the character chooses any one active, knowledge, or language skill and increases the natural maximum for that skill by 1. They still must spend karma to increase the skill as normal. This technique stacks with the aptitude quality. This technique may be taken more then once, each time it applies to a different skill.

Spell Defense: The character gains a +1 dice pool modifier on all tests to resist spells and magical effects. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Strong Spirit: The characters essence increases by .25. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Thick Skinned: The character gains +1 natural impact and ballistic armor, this stacks with armor gained from all other sources. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.
Ravor
Although I personaly don't care for the idea of Initiation and unlimited advancement for mundanes (Given that both from a meta-level standpoint as the mana levels increase, at some point in the distant future there won't be any actual mundanes anymore, as well as it just not being my cup of tea in general.), I have to say that your system does seem more or less balanced with the possible tweaking of the listed Techniques. I'm not sure that Haste and Thick Skin are balanced and just have a strong dislike for Spell Defense as instead of focusing on improving the mundane, it instead detracts from an awaken's abilities.



Omer Joel
Self-Actualization... Isn't that something the Universal brotherhood offers in its posters and advertisement? devil.gif

On a more serious note, I'd simply remove the skill and stat caps BUT require higher than usual Karma expenditure to go above them.
Garrowolf
Okay I hate this idea for a lot of reasons. For one it doesn't fix a problem, it causes a whole new series of them. Open ended systems are absurd. I think that the magic and technomancers need limits. They need hard caps. Not the other way around.

Two while I don't mind the idea of feats, that is exactly what you have created. In the wrong system. If you want to add feats then add them at a more reasonable power level and for everyone.

Three a self actualized person would not be a criminal. The thing that Shadowrun dances around is that an intelligent and balanced person would not be a Shadowrunner. If these people were real they would have a mental disorders score higher then their bp total! They would be completely heartless and disassociated from humanity to behave this way. There is NO way for that kind of person to become self actualized. If they did then they would no loner be criminals. They would have to work through all the issues that allow them to react this way.

If you want a powerful character that is already out of balance then pick a physad.
Kyoto Kid
...I like the concept of Mundane Spell defence. I think instead of adding extra dice it should add a threshold to the spellcaster's test.

Go Ahead, cast that Mindprobe, hope you like the headache you mage slime!

...OK, I feel much better now, really.
Rotbart van Dainig
This is... wrong. Just... wrong.
Garrowolf
A better way to do that would be a skill that spies and such would learn to become more sensitive to mental probes and try and block them out. I was thinking about a character on Babylon 5 that tried to block Talia from reading his mind by reciting songs, doing math, etc. It probably would have worked for most other telepaths but she was too powerful.

The downside of this skill is that it is an exclusive complex skill. You can't do anything else while you do it and it only works while you do it. You can block from the beginning only if you are aware that they might do that to you. Otherwise you get perception tests with it to realize the mental contact.

That way it is not a power but it isn't imbalancing either and it is difficult to maintain. It would just add to the willpower test to resist.

Eleazar
Wouldn't the self actualization you are advocating here require some sort of power or energy? How are they going over their natural maximum? Why would it all of the sudden increase during extended training? Why do these mundanes all of the sudden become supermen? So, if 7 is legendary then what is a skill of 8, demigod-like? This sounds a bit too much like a dnd epic level handbook for mundane Shadowrun characters.

The way I understand self actualization is a realizing of maximum/full potential. So wouldn't self actualization just be another method(RP) for a mundane to realize his natural maxium attributes and skills. Rather than exceeding them somehow.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Mar 8 2007, 04:58 AM)
A better way to do that would be a skill that spies and such would learn to become more sensitive to mental probes and try and block them out. I was thinking about a character on Babylon 5 that tried to block Talia from reading his mind by reciting songs, doing math, etc. It probably would have worked for most other telepaths but she was too powerful.

The downside of this skill is that it is an exclusive complex skill. You can't do anything else while you do it and it only works while you do it. You can block from the beginning only if you are aware that they might do that to you. Otherwise you get perception tests with it to realize the mental contact.

That way it is not a power but it isn't imbalancing either and it is difficult to maintain. It would just add to the willpower test to resist.

...in the old Space Opera system this was called "Shuttle Thought" and only those who were psionically "dead" (Psi 1 - 2 rating) could do it.
Spike
I'm torn. I like the basic idea, and I'll happily argue Garrowolf's point about the nature of Shadowrunners any day of the week. nyahnyah.gif

And I even like the implementation. Unlike many fan-projects I see I don't get the feeling that this is a 'look how uber I can make my favorite characters' from it.

On the other hand I can definitly see how this doesn't really fit Shadowrun much, if at all. If people could gain self actualization so 'easily' then cyberware would be much less common. That's a crude version of the comment. Lets just say that realatively straight forward, easily acheivable 'Self Actualization' of this sort is more in line with 'Shaolin Monk' roleplaying, and less 'urban criminals'.
2bit
Infinite magical advancement is rhetoric, and should never be an issue within the scope of the game.
Backgammon
Defining a serious system of "Self Actualization" is limiting.

Averything you described is or can be a Positive Quality, and Positive Quality can be bought with Karma and/or roleplaying (preferably 'and'), GM permitting.

So instead of structuring this big system that makes little sense, allow your characters to gain Positive Qualities based on significant events in their lives.

Structuring it into a rigid rule system is, as Rotbart eloquently stated, wrong, just wrong.
Konsaki
I have to agree with 2bit. If you actually get a mage/TM to Initiate/Submersion level 13 then you need to make that character a NPC...

I have always felt there should be a hard cap on magic/resonance of 12, but if you actually can get a character up that high anyways, you probably have either neglected everything else on your character or been playing way too long with that character.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Backgammon)
Structuring it into a rigid rule system is, as Rotbart eloquently stated, wrong, just wrong.

Well, my reason to absolutly hate this idea is that it basically makes every Mundane an Adept Light.

Without impact by essence loss.

Seriously - if you want a character that can transcend human limits through training - play an Adept.
2bit
That's not a bad idea actually; self actualization sounds like a great adept path.
ShadowDragon8685
This is Parkour. Adepts are Parkour on mega-magic steroids.

Any questions?

I think this is a perfect system to rebalance Mundanes with mages and adepts and technomancers. Perhaps it's something that (meta)humankind has always been able to do.

Perhaps it's simply an expression of the Mana level's slow rise. Before, only guys like Parkour could do this - but as an alternative to the "Spike PhysAd" idea, perhaps this is what they were doing all along...
Trigger
Parkour is a person? I thought Parkour was a french sport/ movement style/ philosophy/ martial arts and the people that practiced it were called Traceurs....but if there is an actual person named Parkour then I have actually been practicing a new cult religion for the last few months...
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Trigger)
then I have actually been practicing a new cult religion for the last few months...

Just don't drink the kool-aid when they offer it to you. wink.gif
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (2bit)
Infinite magical advancement is rhetoric, and should never be an issue within the scope of the game.

I agree. The awakened's ability to advance indefinitely does not make them unbalanced compared to mundanes unless your GM hands out 20 karma per session. These house rules are unnecessary.
mfb
self-actualization goes against the core of cyberpunk. cyberpunk means trading in humanity in exchange for power, whereas self-actualization (especially as described here) means gaining power by becoming more human.

in SR, all of the 'superhuman abilities' that don't come from technology come from magic. a person who practiced this self-actualization and gained power from it would be an adept, and they would manipulate mana just like every other Awakened character. that's how it works, in SR. there are no higher powers of the unAwakened mind waiting to be unlocked--it's all magic.

now, if this "self-actualization" were some kind of simsense therapy thing, where you chip in for long periods of time and come out changed? that would be cool. and it'd cost essence.

TheOOB
Perhaps self-actualization is an inproper name for the process, as mechanically all it represents is pushing yourself beyond your normal limits and trying to hit the absolute peak of your (meta)human abilities.

I can make a character a human character with a 6 in agility and a 6 in pistols, and via qualities I could even get both those up to 7. If I spend enough nuyen and essence I could even in theory increase those values even more via cyber/bioware, but at that point it's not my abilities so much as the wares abilities.

I agree with the common trend that at a certain point any character should be retired as they've just gotten to powerful. Sure in theory a magician could initiate dozens of times and be a god, and a mudane with these rules could self-actualize the same number of times and be crazy insanely powerful as well, but thats not the point of this process. The point of this process is to leave some room for advancement in your choosen field. At character creation by spending enough BP you can essentially master one field to the point where there is little or more additional advancement you can make in that field. At that point all the karma you gain can seem a little hollow in comparison to the mages or the technomancers, while they still have the ability to improve the core abilities, you need to spend your karma on secondary skills. Sure they are useful, but when you build a character to shoot things, you want to know that 10 sessions from now, you'll be a little better at shooting things.
Konsaki
One thing you need to think about is the fact that Mages, Adepts and TM's are supposed to be better than their mundane friends just because they are 'special'. They spent the extra BP/Karma to be better and have all that cool shit.

Should you ever get to a point where you have to deal with a maxed out Mundane vs a endless 'awakened', I think you need to restart the game since you have obviously left the realm of normal shadowrunners and entered the realm of OMGWTFPWN level of gaming where you take out dragons for a run.
TheOOB
But you can get extreamly close to maxing out your ability in a certain field at char creation with a mundane. For example, for a gunslinger, if you start with 7 pistols and agility (assuming human with apitude and exceptional attribute) and take some agility boosting cyberware you've allready hit close the best a mudane can ever be at pistols under the current rules.
Konsaki
Yeah... and?
7 Pistols and Agility for an unmodded human is at 'Super Human' levels. So you maxed one skill out at chargen, you still have alot left to skill up and you obviously are going to be lacking in them due to spending so many BP on Pistols, Agility and the Positive qualities to bring them up to 7/7.

Now what about everything else? You just spent 138/400 just on the stats and qualities for pistols. Yeah, agility helps with alot of other skills, but you can only get 4 in them now since you maxxed out pistols.
One super maxed out skill doesn not equal a good shadowrunner. Infact, in most situations, it makes your runner weaker due to the fact that he is so specialized, but I digress.

Awakened characters are supposed to have 'cool' stuff that Mundanes dont have because the awakened character had BP spent at chargen to make them 'better'. Mundanes have 'Ware' to make themselves better so they can compete with the awakened charcters.
If you wanted everything to be even, then you might want to ban mages, adepts and TM's in your games, not make up some rules that make mundane characters just like them but without magic. I admit that they are good and well thought out house rules, but no thanks. You can play with them if you want, but I'll pass.
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (TheOOB)
But you can get extreamly close to maxing out your ability in a certain field at char creation with a mundane. For example, for a gunslinger, if you start with 7 pistols and agility (assuming human with apitude and exceptional attribute) and take some agility boosting cyberware you've allready hit close the best a mudane can ever be at pistols under the current rules.

So then you can master another skill while your mage/adept friend spends the karma to squeeze out 1 or 2 more dice by initiating. I don't see the balance problem there.
mfb
my opinion is that having the absolute maximum be achievable at chargen is poor game design. in that, i agree with the OP. however, trying to fix that by removing the caps will only cause more problems, given the game mechanics of SR4.
ShadowDragon8685
I'm not so sure. I like this "Self-Actualization" system.

Remember, Shadowrun is as much Fantasy as it is Cyberpunk. Mages shoulden't be the only ones pushing themselves to the limits and beyond.

Besides, even with this in place, Mundanes still get hosed. They get what, an additional point in a mundane attribute, which they have to buy up with Karma? Mages get another point of MAGIC... I'm not sure it's comperable.
TheOOB
Self-Aculization is really inefficant karma-wise on purpose. Most players will never use it, but it does give them the option to improve their abilities beyond normal limits if they are willing to dedicate themselves to it.

Some people would be willing to spend 19 karma to gain the ability to spend even more karma to get a stat raised.
Glyph
I don't like this set of house rules - I have never liked "special advantages" for mundanes.

I admit that being able to reach the hard cap in a skill at char-gen is a sore spot for me, but that still leaves lots of room for lateral advancement for mundane characters. If I want higher skill caps to give characters something to strive for, I will use Frank's house rules.
Taotao
Tweaking edge rules is a simple and solid way to beef up mundanes if needed. Have awakened characters regain edge slower or have lower limit for their edge attribute than mundanes. Still, 99% of all campaigns shouldn't have any problems with magic 10+ characters.
toturi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
I'm not so sure. I like this "Self-Actualization" system.

Remember, Shadowrun is as much Fantasy as it is Cyberpunk. Mages shoulden't be the only ones pushing themselves to the limits and beyond.

Besides, even with this in place, Mundanes still get hosed. They get what, an additional point in a mundane attribute, which they have to buy up with Karma? Mages get another point of MAGIC... I'm not sure it's comperable.

More like Magic without the drawbacks.

Awakened need to initiate to increase their max and then buy the actual increase in Magic. Awakened do not get a free point of Magic when they initiate.

The mundane with Self-Actualisation will be able to get cyber(and not suffer a "magic" loss) and then "initiate" to boost his max and then buy it with karma. A mundane with self actualisation can combine the unlimited progression of Magic and the quick boosts from cyber/bio without suffering the loss of Magic implants will bring. If you want to uberise the mundane, this would be a very good way to do it.
Ryu
I do not agree that mundanes need support in the first place.

They are able to reach the top at chargen, yes. And any player who does that better had lateral advancement in mind, else he will suffer from a lack of char development.

An option like this would only be required if the mundane had no options to get things done. That is not the case. Yes, at some theoretical point the mage will do everything and magic too. But that point won´t be reached in most campaigns.
mfb
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Remember, Shadowrun is as much Fantasy as it is Cyberpunk. Mages shoulden't be the only ones pushing themselves to the limits and beyond.

they're not. mundanes can fill their bodies with cyberware if they want to break the limits. that's the whole point of cyberware, is that it allows you to do what you otherwise wouldn't be physically capable of. if you want to extend mundane's limits, remove the augmentation caps. don't make magic that isn't really magic, there's already a mechanic in place for what you want to accomplish.
Garrowolf
One of the biggest pushes for cyberware is to reach a level that magic and metahumans have. You shouldn't do anything to take that away.

Personally I am finding that I like Edge less and less. I find that it takes some of the grittiness of the setting away. If anything it should be capped lower not higher.
Narmio
Er, guys, "be one with yourself", "push your body beyond the normal limit" and "achieve personal unity" stuff is represented in game by buying up skills and attributes, and then taking the Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute qualities.

Besides, this system really doesn't make any sense. Focussing on how normal you are and revelling in your mediocrity shouldn't make you better, just depressed.

If someone wanted to do this kind of *concept* in my game, then they get Latent Awakening(Adept) and their powers manifest through that.
Garrowolf
Also Self actualization is about as far from cyberpunk as you can get.

I asked her where the self help section was and she told me, "That would defeat the point!"
Steak and Spirits
The concept sounds workable. Anything that allows Mundanes to compete at only a fraction of where Awakened Character's can compete is awesome, in my book. As it stands right now, the Fanpro explanation doesn't cut: "Yes, we know that Awakened Characters are powerful, to a game breaking extent, so instead of really attempting to balance anything, we're just going to put that all on the shoulders of the GM."

Bullshit.

I'm going to give it another glance over, in a little bit. But on the surface, it looks cool, and like a workable concept. And don't let all the naysayer's drag you down. Sperethiel, and Elven Wine are less cyberpunk than this is - And somehow they passes the sniff-test into canon.

Punk is all about attitude, anyway. Example.

Two identically dressed kids are standing on a street corner. The first turns to the second and says, "Hey, what's punk?"

The second glances at the first, takes a step steps to his right, and kicks over some trashcans, and smashes their sides in under heel. He says, "That's punk."

The first kid walks over to those trashcans, finds one still standing up, and kicks it over. He starts bashing it in with his boot. "So this is punk, huh?"

Before the second kid can put a look of disgust on his face, and walk away, he responds, "No, dipshit. That's just fucking trendy."
Farceseer Siranaul
I personally don't see the need for this. I just put a maximum of nine on the magic attribute. To initiate/submerge costs karma, and to fill in the space opened up in the respective attribute takes more karma. I, myself, am much harder on non-mundanes. This I think makes up for them being a bit better than the normals. My gamers know that drain is a bitch.

Every GM has their own way of dealing with older characters. If you feel this will work with your style and your gamers. Then by all means go for it.
hyzmarca
Personally, I think that the better method of balancing mundanes with physads, magicians, and technomancers is to expand the cyberware selection (which will be done soon, hopefully), include more pieces that provide bonus dice without increasing the base stat and remove the lower limit from essence.

If you have PC mages with 12 magic then they'd still have trouble against a street sam with -6 essence.
Farceseer Siranaul
That's a neat idea. Make essence a stat that you can increase. I'd say upto a maximum of nine. Like the other attributes.
hyzmarca
Increasing essence just makes magicians that much more powerful because the magic rating is capped at Essence(rounded down)+grade. It also destroys flavor. The fact that essence cannot be increased without vampirism is an important part of the universe. My idea is to allow essence to drop below zero without killing the character. This is already possible in canon and gives the test subject some great anti-magic powers, too. By canon, it is messy, expensive, rare, and it drastically shortens the life of the subject. However, there is no reason why the procedure couldn't have been refined to the point of being commercially viable at some point during the previous five years.
TheOOB
Acually, magic is capped at 6+initiation grade, you just lose 1 point of magic for every point of essence you lose or fraction there of.
Ravor
Well I'd say that the reason for that is that Essence is also capped at 6, raising the Essence cap without also raising the Magic cap just doesn't wash in my opinion.
TheOOB
The fact that essence and magic both cap at 6 normally is coincidental.

You could, instead of raising essence, give "virtual essence" that can only be used to instal cyberware.
hyzmarca
It isn't coincidental, it was an integral part of the system back in 1989. Up until SR4, magic always equaled Essence + Grade (-loss, if any). Incidentally, this made vampire magicians even more absurdly powerful than they are in SR4.
It is an important part of the flavor that magic and essence are tied together in some inexplicable way.


And magic is capped at Essence +grade in SR4. Losing a point of essence doesn't just reduce the character's current magic, it also reduces the character's magic cap.
This is an important distinction because if the cap wasn't reduced then the magician could just buy another point of magic to replace the one lost, just like one can buy back burnt Edge.
The system is set up so that a magician who gets Cyberware has to initiate just to make up for the reduced magic cap and a magician who loses more than 5 points of essence can never initiate again.
mfb
QUOTE (Steak and Spirits)
"Yes, we know that Awakened Characters are powerful, to a game breaking extent, so instead of really attempting to balance anything, we're just going to put that all on the shoulders of the GM."

Bullshit.

that still doesn't mean you have to go with some mystical, magi--oops, not magical!--means of self-improvement. SR is man meets magic and machine, not man meets magic and yoga. if you want to make mundanes more powerful in comparison to the Awakened, improve cyberware. the whole point of having cyberware in the game is to allow mundanes to surpass their physical limits. if mundanes are weak compared to the Awakened, then the cyberware isn't doing its job. the answer to that dilemma is not to come up with a completely new system for character improvement that goes completely outside the bounds of anything that's come before in the game. the answer is to improve what already exists in the game.
Ravor
QUOTE (TheOOB)
You could, instead of raising essence, give "virtual essence" that can only be used to instal cyberware.


Ok, then what is the logical 'Fluff' used to explain why Mundanes have this 'virtual Essensce' but the Awakened don't?

QUOTE (mfb)
that still doesn't mean you have to go with some mystical, magi--oops, not magical!--means of self-improvement. SR is man meets magic and machine, not man meets magic and yoga. if you want to make mundanes more powerful in comparison to the Awakened, improve cyberware. the whole point of having cyberware in the game is to allow mundanes to surpass their physical limits. if mundanes are weak compared to the Awakened, then the cyberware isn't doing its job. the answer to that dilemma is not to come up with a completely new system for character improvement that goes completely outside the bounds of anything that's come before in the game. the answer is to improve what already exists in the game.


Agreed. What I've done is improve Cyberware by 1 Grade across the board, but also introduced cheaper Grades eat more Essence then normal for the Gangers, ect to use. (I think I'll start a thread to name them as they've so far remained unamed.)

I've also decided to steal an idea posted on Dumpshock that Cyberlimbs start out at the racial max for stats, but haven't fully tested it out for balance yet.

I also believe that something has to be done with Wired Reflexes, but haven't actually decided what to do yet.

Now, something to consider about what I've done is that the changes apply to everyone, mundane and awakened alike, so I don't have any of my players able to whine about me showing favoritism towards either group, BUT in effect since mundanes tend to get more cyber they actually come out slightly better in the long run.

Also, if someone really thought that the Awakened were overpowered then you could bump up casting spells, summoning Spirits, ect from a normal complex action into a 'Super Complex Action' and only allow it to be done once per Combat Turn no matter how many IPs the Awakened has. (To be fair to both groups, one would also have to apply this to Deckers hacking while using AR and ignore it while projecting in the Astral.)
Farceseer Siranaul
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It isn't coincidental, it was an integral part of the system back in 1989. Up until SR4, magic always equaled Essence + Grade (-loss, if any). Incidentally, this made vampire magicians even more absurdly powerful than they are in SR4.
It is an important part of the flavor that magic and essence are tied together in some inexplicable way.


The keyword in this paragraph is "was" an integral part of the system. If you still play one of the older editions fine, but this discussion is about fourth edition.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
And magic is capped at Essence +grade in SR4.


Is that a rules quote? What page that has that line?

QUOTE (Ravor)
Well I'd say that the reason for that is that Essence is also capped at 6, raising the Essence cap without also raising the Magic cap just doesn't wash in my opinion.


Say it any way you please. It still doesn't make it true. Page 73 says that magic/resonance have a natural maximum of six plus grade. There is no mention that magic's maximum is the character's essence. Not any more.

If it still bothers you so much. Then only allow mundanes the ability to increase essence.
Ravor
Ah, but something to consider is that since Essence starts at 6 and can never be raised by metahumans the following statements are all true...

Magic = 6 + Grade - Loss

Magic = Essence + Grade - Loss

Resonance = 6 + Submersion - Loss

Resonance = Essence + Submersion - Loss

Also worth noting is that once a Mage/Technomancer has lost more then 5 Points of Essence they can no longer Initate or Submerge and that freezes their max Magic / Resonance.

And also, although yes, we are talking about 4th Edition, but the precidents left by the previous editions are still there and should be given weight, espeically when following said precidents doesn't change a single fragging thing for metahumans in a normal non-house ruled game.

*Edit*

Oh, and once again exactly what logical 'Fluff' are you going to use to explain why mundanes are able to raise their Essence, virtual or not while Awakened can't?
hyzmarca
I still have no idea why creating a brand new raising essence, which completely destroys the flavor of the game that has been established over the past 18 years, is somehow better than toning down the pre-existing cybermancy mechanics so that negative essence characters are viable in a high-level campaign.
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