Self-Actualization, Making Mudanes Better Options

[mfb]

[Konsaki]

Then talk to your GM about raising the Skill caps after chargen to 7, 8 or 9...

[mfb]

heh, my GM would be like, "skill caps? what do you mean, SR3 doesn't have skill caps!"

raising or removing the skill caps is one solution, but i don't think it would work very well in the long run. part of the reason i don't like SR4 is that at the high end, it's too easy to do hard things. removing the caps would exacerbate that issue even more.

this is a long discussion that can be cut short, unless people really, really want to discuss it. basically, the only solution to the cap problem that works to my personal satisfaction is to scrap the entire basis of SR4--the fixed TN mechanic--and go back to variable TNs.

[Mistwalker]

I think I will skip that discussion.

Been there, done that.

Didn't find it worth the effort involved, specially as TPTB don't have any plans on changing the whole system.

[Farceseer Sirana...]

Has any one thought of not allowing the awakened and technomancers to increase edge? Making the edge trait a mundane's speciality. Fluff-wise, awakened characters make their own luck with magic.

[Garrowolf]

SR4 does have variable TNs. They are called Thresholds and dice pool penalties.

[Ravor]

Um, Farceseer Siranaul, are you suggesting that Human Mages have Edge 1, or that they lose the bonus for being human?

Also would Mages be able to burn a point of Magic in order to pull a 'Hand of God'?

Still, personally I don't like it, but then again I don't think there is a problem with Mages vs Mundanes being unbalanced...

[Farceseer Sirana...]

I only suggest they are unable to raise it by expending BP or karma. A human mage can still have an edge 2.

[Ravor]

Hmm, not as bad as I first thought, but personally I still don't care for it...

[mfb]

[DireRadiant]

And then there are opposed tests... there's more then one dimension to the probability curve.

[Garrowolf]

Alot of what was a penalty to TN became dice pool penalties. Then you have a threshold on top of that. Then you have less dice in your pool to work with in the first place. I think that the math would work out about the same. That hard roll shouldn't even have the 15 dice. I'm not saying that they are exact but it's not like we have a real world stats for all of this so one general guestimate is as good as another.

[mfb]

[Kyoto Kid]

[Konsaki]

[Kyoto Kid]

...in previous editions however there was both the Variable TN (that acted like a Threshold) and a Resistance test so the character in a sense had two "chances" then. Consider that most mundanes have an average of 3 WP which is (if they are lucky) only one hit. The spell will most likely still have an effect or do some damage unless it totally fizzles.

One limit would be to use only the Target's Unaugmented Attribute. This would keep it from getting too out of hand.

[Konsaki]

But you have to remember, KK, that in 3rd all you had to do was roll 1 hit to actually hit and rolling a 6 with a dicepool of your magic + the magic pool wasnt hard at all.
Rolling 3-4 hits in SR4 just to actually have your spell land with a dicepool of 12 (6 magic + 6 skill), then having your target roll their stat again, god forbid they have a mage counterspelling them, would be a little bit of overkill. You would have mages burning edge just to cast a stunbolt, plus the fact that all spells would have to be, at minimum, the TN+1, so you are actually encuraging high force spells.

[Not a completed post]

[Kyoto Kid]

...let's use an example.

My namesake in SR3 had a 6 Willpower. This meant an opposing mage needed to roll 6s to succeed. Of course this would normally limit the number of his or her successess since 6s come up less frequently than 4s. Ergo there is a good chance the spell does not stage up but does hit for base damage.

So, offending Mage with a magic of 6 & 6 Spell Pool casts a Force 6 Powerbolt at KK getting 2 successs which is still base damage. KK rolls her WP (6) against the spell's force & gets only 1 success taking a moderate wound effect (3 boxes) She now has -1 to reaction and all tests.

Now in let's take it to SR4. KK is hit by a mage with a magic of 6 casting a force 6 powerbolt (not hard for a beginning level character to have) The mage gets 4 hits on 12 dice (TN 5). She has a willpower DP of 4 (needing 5s as well) to soak the damage. She only gets 1 hit. The mage now has a net of 3 hits + the spell's force, leaving poor KK to take 9 blocks of damage. She now has -3 to all tests, - 3 to reaction and is only 1 block away from going down.

I would say magic needs nerfed a little. Just trying to find a more streamlined mechanic to handle it.

[Konsaki]

I dont disagree with you, but using your example with your own suggested rules, which I like I might add, it would have a different outcome.

The mage gets 4 hits which is equal to your character's willpower, thereby meeting the Stat given 'Hits Required' TN. Since he just met the casting requirements, he does base damage of 6DV.
This is all well and good, no 9 damage, just 6.

Now this right here is why I would disallow any resistance rolls from the victim. KK now rolls her Will (4) and gets 1 hit. Now the mage who had 4 hits, which is good off of 12 dice and just barely hit the requirement for her willpower, now has a fully resisted spell.
Remember that this is a 6/6 mage we are talking about. In SR, thats pretty powerful.

I say, instead of letting the victim set the 'Hits Required' TN at their stat AND letting them resist, we dont let them roll resist but let Counterspelling take up the slack and make it more important.

[Kyoto Kid]

...but, depending if the team has a mage and the mage has counterspelling skill, makes this option too much of a variable.

To maybe better illustrate, if the Threshold of KK's WP is met and there are no net successes, the Spell's power still has it's effect on the target meaning KK would have to soak the remaining 6 hits with her WP. So, she gets her 1 hit and still takes a resultant of 5 blocks instead of 9.

This would be analogous to having to stage down the "base damage" of a spell in previous editions.

[Konsaki]

Ok, so you soak like you would a bullet then instead of how magic rules are in RAW. I like that better too.

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought you were using RAW with your modded TN.

[Kyoto Kid]

[TheOOB]

We allready know direct damage spells are overpowered, I think it would be a good step to balancing magicians to only allow indirect damage spells, or at least to give direct damage spells Drain equivelent to indirect damage spells, the direct damage spells would still be better in many circumstances.

[Garrowolf]

The thing about having extreme shots is that I think that is the main reason to NOT have such high dice pools in the first place. An impossible shot shot should have almost no dice left and a high threshold. Only with edge could you take the shot at all.

The problem isn't the dice mechanic. The problem is that there is no sense of scale to these numbers. People are starting with inhumanly high numbers and don't realize it. There is no grittiness to this game because it is too easy to be too powerful.

[Konsaki]

Off the top of my head, barring edge, I came up with 27 dice in the biggest Ranged attack pool.

12 - Agility + Elf + Pos Quality + Augmented
9 - Skill + Specialization + Pos Quality
2 - Smartlink
1 - Reflex Recorder
3 - Adept skill power

This is supposed to be the best of the best, but yeah, you can get it straight out of CharGen.

Edit: Removed 'Enhanced Articulation'