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 Magicians & IPs, How do you? |
 Mar 10 2007, 10:32 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558  |
If IP's are as integral to combat situations as I am being led to believe, what method do you use for your magician? I won't use cyberware and I dont want to go the Magic Adept path which only leaves drugs as far as I can tell. Is that what most people use?
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Mar 10 2007, 10:48 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
Increase Reflexes spell and a Health Sustaining Focus
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Mar 10 2007, 11:43 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-November 05 Member No.: 7,941 |
Doesn't that just add to your reaction but not gain you extra initiative passes?
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Mar 10 2007, 11:59 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
No, there is a threshold for each level of success to the spell.
If you get to the 4 threshold, you have +3 initiative and +3 passes. |
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Mar 10 2007, 12:03 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
There is a little known clause in the base book under spellcasting that says the max number of hits cannot exceed the Force of the spell and, here's the really funny part: That Edge dice are not restricted by the force of the spell.
That means, per very explicitly stated RAW, you can get a starting character with force 3 sustaining health focus, spend edge casting Increase Reflexes at Force 3 and get the threshold 4 necessary for 4 initiative passes. Mages are pretty broken because of the Edge-hits-not-being-restricted clause. Heck, you can get Agility 3 and Edge 6 and get an average boosted AGI with 6 spellcasting and magic 5 of get an average of 6 more agility [9 total] by using an Edge point when putting it into the Sustaining focus. Not a bad deal for a high edge mage, eh? :-) |
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Mar 10 2007, 01:55 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
I forgot about that, but it doesn't really fit in with the what I had in mind for my mage either. She's more of a manipulator. I'm thinking maybe she doesn't need the extra IP that badly if she can just Mob Mind everyone pretty hardcore.
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Mar 10 2007, 02:11 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
The only problem with this if the GM allows it, every NPC mage and their brother is going to be using this to get 4 initiative passes. If they don't allow it they will hit you over the head with the SR4 book so hard your teeth will fall out, just from mentioning something like that. There seems to be some unwritten rule in the SR4 BBB that 4 initiative passes can't be obtained without some sort of difficulty. For mages this would be the -2 sustaining. For Adepts they have to spend a lot of points. For other archetypes I am not even sure if it is possible. I see what you are saying though, and right now I can't think of any way it doesn't agree with RAW. Though I am not so sure someone else won't. |
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Mar 10 2007, 03:15 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
No, no, no. You're mixing up problems, and solutions. The only solution is that unless your GM disallows it, every NPC mage and their Bother may use that to get 4 initiative passes. The only problem is that it is already a feature written into the rules, and therefore, requires no special action on behalf of Player or NPC to take advantage of. Additionally: I just reread some text on Sustaining Foci, and noted that they're spell catergory specific instead of Spell Specific. Awakened PCs are just getting better and better aren't they? :P |
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Mar 11 2007, 01:02 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
It's a pretty easy argue to say that the focus supports a Force 3 spell, with Force 3 results. Using your own edge doesn't translate over to the focus.
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Mar 11 2007, 01:26 AM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Plus, even if the GM does allow this tactic (unlikely at best), you will have to expend your precious Edge every time that you need to activate your focus - so things like trying to move through warded areas without setting off alarms could become problematic.
The penalty for sustaining spells is a lot more bearable than SR3's TN increases, so you are better off simply sustaining spells at char-gen. |
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Mar 11 2007, 01:50 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
My point was the rules as written include it. Anything can be excluded by a GM-call, house rule, etc. |
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Mar 11 2007, 02:10 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I'd disagree that interpreting an area where there is no clear meaning (the book never touches on whether those extra dice are limited by foci) is in the "oh, that's a house rule category" but that's not really a discussion for this thread. However, beyond that, you have to spend Edge every time you do this trick. So you probably have it up and running 100% of the time. Check out the rules for Focus Addiction. Even if you allow the tactic (and I'd probably buy that you could do it, based on the way a Sustaining Focus works), having a spell focus active 100% of the time puts you pretty firmly in Focus Addiction. The Mild version is a -2 on all Drain tests. Moderate is -4. So overall, it's not something that's hugely worrying to me. Focus Addiction is probably a rule that most GMs don't enforce really strictly. But the instant someone comes to me and says "I can do this, see, the rules allow it!" the Focus Addiction rules would kick in to high gear for me. |
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Mar 11 2007, 02:18 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
lol, sure.... thats a pretty good way to handle it!
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Mar 11 2007, 05:22 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I don't see the problem with characters using Spirits of Man or Sustaining Focuses to hold Increased Reflexes spells on their person. These effects are Dual, which means that they can be turned off from the Astral plane and cannot be silently taken through a Ward. Indeed, they will often be disrupted attaempting to haul them through a ward of any decent size.
Once you see someone run through a progressing firefight and go through a decent size ward that reboots his Increased Reflexes spell - the supposed advantages of the system just don't seem as important. The guy drops right out of warp in the middle of combat and is suddenly standing there with just 1 IP and the need to spend it and possibly spend Edge and take Drain to get his extra actions back the next round. The excitement may be over by that time and he might not survive. So sure. Bring it on. It's just like starting with a Synaptic Booster 3 for zero Essence. It's just like that except that every so often it turns off in the middle of combat. Of course I allow that sort of thing. I don't think that anyone else in the team has ever told me that it was over powered. -Frank |
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Mar 11 2007, 06:26 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I absolutely hate this spell. It breaks balence so quickly it's rediculous. As soon as it is used then the magician becomes the street sammie with magic. Sustaining it has made at least one player give up on shadowrun.
I ban this spell entirely. |
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Mar 11 2007, 06:27 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Good points, but just for the record.... Bioware costs essence in SR4
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Mar 11 2007, 07:10 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Me too. I also banned magicians from picking up guns for the same reason. Once a mage can get an Ares Alpha, he's a street sammie with magic. |
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Mar 11 2007, 08:39 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
I don't have a huge problem with the spell. If your opponents have to mages, then they are in trouble. But, if they do have mages, then one of the first things that normally happen, is that sustained spells are attacked (and often taken down) from the astral plane, by projecting mages or spirits. The more mojo a mage casts in an encounter, the more likely someone is going to see, or be able to pick up a signature. The mage may not have time to clean up the astral before they have to run. The more mojo thrown around, the more likely security corps will send astral mages to take a look, memorize the signature and probably follow it. The players in my group have used it, but do so rarely, and usualy not when they are surprised. |
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Mar 11 2007, 08:50 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I have one noob who is planning on using this spell. 'Course he is a convert from D&D so his character is an Ork follower of the Elven Path Tradition that fights with a Pole Arm. So go figure. Anyone who has played a mage in my campaign before gains a pathological fear of occult forensic teams. :D |
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Mar 11 2007, 09:14 PM
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#20
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...same here. For one, the increase reflexes spell does not add to Reaction so the mage will usually have less initiative dice to roll for initiative tests than the sammy unless he also sustains an Increase Attribute - Reaction spell (spendy if you do it with foci & just makes the mage a better target for astral attack). I am more inclined to restrict, if not outrightly ban certain Mental Manipulations and have already banned Mind Probe (for both PCs & NPCs) which I find as being more unbalancing. |
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Mar 11 2007, 10:16 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Really? I had an entire character type based around mind probe and such spells. They were used in place of torturers. The group was hired to extract a scientist and bring him to one of these guys. He got the information that was needed and wiped his recent memory. Then they stunned him unconscious and put him back.
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Mar 11 2007, 11:29 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
While Increased Reflexes do not add to Reaction, it does add to Initiative, which give pretty much the same result. Maxed spell vs Maxed Wired Increased Reflexes +3 Initiative, +3 Initiative Passes Wired Reflexes +3, +3 Reaction, +3 Initiative Passes End result is the same. The difference being that the sammy/adept always have the boosted effect while the mage has to cast the spell, sustain the spell, drop and recast it to go thru mana barriers (if they don't want to be noticed), or force their way thru and hope that their spell beats the barrier. |
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Mar 11 2007, 11:32 PM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
3 initiative Vs 3 reaction is a HUGE difference. Reaction could save your life.
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Mar 12 2007, 12:04 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
people keep on bringing up wards like they are common and they are not. This is no limitation. Combat doesn't usually last long enough (especially with this spell going) for this to be an issue.
Noticing a magic user is no limitation either. It's a huge advantage that they are not automatically noticed! Not the other way around. People will figure out who is the Sammie pretty quickly. Mages have a decent chance of going a few rounds before being noticed. A karma can make you go first. Reaction is less important for that then it used to be. The extra complex actions are the problem. They can cast three or four spells a turn. This totally breaks my disbelief in the setting. I can see the hyped up sammie shooting and punching in a adrenaline filled frenzy but I cant see the focus and concentration sped up to rapid fire cast spells. Magic users can already create a team of their own on a whim. They can already kill somebody without their benefiting from their expensive armor. They can already control people's minds in various ways. They can already fly. The only limitation on them is that they are doing this relatively slowly. If that changes then there is no reason to play anything else. |
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Mar 12 2007, 12:14 AM
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#25
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Huh? From a cost-benefit perspective, wards should be extremely common. Every public building important enough to have a security camera should also have a ward near the entrance. |
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