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Tomothy
If IP's are as integral to combat situations as I am being led to believe, what method do you use for your magician? I won't use cyberware and I dont want to go the Magic Adept path which only leaves drugs as far as I can tell. Is that what most people use?
ThreeGee
Increase Reflexes spell and a Health Sustaining Focus
Gamble
Doesn't that just add to your reaction but not gain you extra initiative passes?
Mistwalker
No, there is a threshold for each level of success to the spell.
If you get to the 4 threshold, you have +3 initiative and +3 passes.
Wasabi
There is a little known clause in the base book under spellcasting that says the max number of hits cannot exceed the Force of the spell and, here's the really funny part: That Edge dice are not restricted by the force of the spell.

That means, per very explicitly stated RAW, you can get a starting character with force 3 sustaining health focus, spend edge casting Increase Reflexes at Force 3 and get the threshold 4 necessary for 4 initiative passes.

Mages are pretty broken because of the Edge-hits-not-being-restricted clause. Heck, you can get Agility 3 and Edge 6 and get an average boosted AGI with 6 spellcasting and magic 5 of get an average of 6 more agility [9 total] by using an Edge point when putting it into the Sustaining focus.

Not a bad deal for a high edge mage, eh? smile.gif
Tomothy
I forgot about that, but it doesn't really fit in with the what I had in mind for my mage either. She's more of a manipulator. I'm thinking maybe she doesn't need the extra IP that badly if she can just Mob Mind everyone pretty hardcore.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Wasabi)
There is a little known clause in the base book under spellcasting that says the max number of hits cannot exceed the Force of the spell and, here's the really funny part: That Edge dice are not restricted by the force of the spell.

That means, per very explicitly stated RAW, you can get a starting character with force 3 sustaining health focus, spend edge casting Increase Reflexes at Force 3 and get the threshold 4 necessary for 4 initiative passes.

Mages are pretty broken because of the Edge-hits-not-being-restricted clause. Heck, you can get Agility 3 and Edge 6 and get an average boosted AGI with 6 spellcasting and magic 5 of get an average of 6 more agility [9 total] by using an Edge point when putting it into the Sustaining focus.

Not a bad deal for a high edge mage, eh? smile.gif

The only problem with this if the GM allows it, every NPC mage and their brother is going to be using this to get 4 initiative passes. If they don't allow it they will hit you over the head with the SR4 book so hard your teeth will fall out, just from mentioning something like that. There seems to be some unwritten rule in the SR4 BBB that 4 initiative passes can't be obtained without some sort of difficulty. For mages this would be the -2 sustaining. For Adepts they have to spend a lot of points. For other archetypes I am not even sure if it is possible.

I see what you are saying though, and right now I can't think of any way it doesn't agree with RAW. Though I am not so sure someone else won't.
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (Eleazar @ Mar 10 2007, 09:11 AM)
The only problem with this if the GM allows it, every NPC mage and their brother is going to be using this to get 4 initiative passes.

No, no, no. You're mixing up problems, and solutions.

The only solution is that unless your GM disallows it, every NPC mage and their Bother may use that to get 4 initiative passes.

The only problem is that it is already a feature written into the rules, and therefore, requires no special action on behalf of Player or NPC to take advantage of.

Additionally: I just reread some text on Sustaining Foci, and noted that they're spell catergory specific instead of Spell Specific. Awakened PCs are just getting better and better aren't they? nyahnyah.gif
lorechaser
It's a pretty easy argue to say that the focus supports a Force 3 spell, with Force 3 results. Using your own edge doesn't translate over to the focus.

Glyph
Plus, even if the GM does allow this tactic (unlikely at best), you will have to expend your precious Edge every time that you need to activate your focus - so things like trying to move through warded areas without setting off alarms could become problematic.

The penalty for sustaining spells is a lot more bearable than SR3's TN increases, so you are better off simply sustaining spells at char-gen.
Wasabi
QUOTE (lorechaser)
It's a pretty easy argue to say that the focus supports a Force 3 spell, with Force 3 results. Using your own edge doesn't translate over to the focus.

My point was the rules as written include it. Anything can be excluded by a GM-call, house rule, etc.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Wasabi)
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Mar 10 2007, 08:02 PM)
It's a pretty easy argue to say that the focus supports a Force 3 spell, with Force 3 results.  Using your own edge doesn't translate over to the focus.

My point was the rules as written include it. Anything can be excluded by a GM-call, house rule, etc.

I'd disagree that interpreting an area where there is no clear meaning (the book never touches on whether those extra dice are limited by foci) is in the "oh, that's a house rule category" but that's not really a discussion for this thread.

However, beyond that, you have to spend Edge every time you do this trick. So you probably have it up and running 100% of the time. Check out the rules for Focus Addiction. Even if you allow the tactic (and I'd probably buy that you could do it, based on the way a Sustaining Focus works), having a spell focus active 100% of the time puts you pretty firmly in Focus Addiction.

The Mild version is a -2 on all Drain tests. Moderate is -4.

So overall, it's not something that's hugely worrying to me. Focus Addiction is probably a rule that most GMs don't enforce really strictly. But the instant someone comes to me and says "I can do this, see, the rules allow it!" the Focus Addiction rules would kick in to high gear for me.
Wasabi
lol, sure.... thats a pretty good way to handle it!
FrankTrollman
I don't see the problem with characters using Spirits of Man or Sustaining Focuses to hold Increased Reflexes spells on their person. These effects are Dual, which means that they can be turned off from the Astral plane and cannot be silently taken through a Ward. Indeed, they will often be disrupted attaempting to haul them through a ward of any decent size.

Once you see someone run through a progressing firefight and go through a decent size ward that reboots his Increased Reflexes spell - the supposed advantages of the system just don't seem as important. The guy drops right out of warp in the middle of combat and is suddenly standing there with just 1 IP and the need to spend it and possibly spend Edge and take Drain to get his extra actions back the next round. The excitement may be over by that time and he might not survive.

So sure. Bring it on. It's just like starting with a Synaptic Booster 3 for zero Essence. It's just like that except that every so often it turns off in the middle of combat. Of course I allow that sort of thing. I don't think that anyone else in the team has ever told me that it was over powered.

-Frank
Garrowolf
I absolutely hate this spell. It breaks balence so quickly it's rediculous. As soon as it is used then the magician becomes the street sammie with magic. Sustaining it has made at least one player give up on shadowrun.

I ban this spell entirely.
Wasabi
Good points, but just for the record.... Bioware costs essence in SR4
lorechaser
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
I absolutely hate this spell. It breaks balence so quickly it's rediculous. As soon as it is used then the magician becomes the street sammie with magic. Sustaining it has made at least one player give up on shadowrun.

I ban this spell entirely.

Me too.

I also banned magicians from picking up guns for the same reason. Once a mage can get an Ares Alpha, he's a street sammie with magic.

Mistwalker
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
I absolutely hate this spell. It breaks balence so quickly it's rediculous. As soon as it is used then the magician becomes the street sammie with magic. Sustaining it has made at least one player give up on shadowrun.

I ban this spell entirely.

I don't have a huge problem with the spell.

If your opponents have to mages, then they are in trouble.

But, if they do have mages, then one of the first things that normally happen, is that sustained spells are attacked (and often taken down) from the astral plane, by projecting mages or spirits.

The more mojo a mage casts in an encounter, the more likely someone is going to see, or be able to pick up a signature. The mage may not have time to clean up the astral before they have to run.

The more mojo thrown around, the more likely security corps will send astral mages to take a look, memorize the signature and probably follow it.


The players in my group have used it, but do so rarely, and usualy not when they are surprised.
Cheops
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Mar 11 2007, 01:26 PM)
I absolutely hate this spell. It breaks balence so quickly it's rediculous. As soon as it is used then the magician becomes the street sammie with magic. Sustaining it has made at least one player give up on shadowrun.

I ban this spell entirely.

I don't have a huge problem with the spell.

If your opponents have to mages, then they are in trouble.

But, if they do have mages, then one of the first things that normally happen, is that sustained spells are attacked (and often taken down) from the astral plane, by projecting mages or spirits.

The more mojo a mage casts in an encounter, the more likely someone is going to see, or be able to pick up a signature. The mage may not have time to clean up the astral before they have to run.

The more mojo thrown around, the more likely security corps will send astral mages to take a look, memorize the signature and probably follow it.


The players in my group have used it, but do so rarely, and usualy not when they are surprised.

I have one noob who is planning on using this spell. 'Course he is a convert from D&D so his character is an Ork follower of the Elven Path Tradition that fights with a Pole Arm. So go figure.

Anyone who has played a mage in my campaign before gains a pathological fear of occult forensic teams. biggrin.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
I don't have a huge problem with the spell.


...same here. For one, the increase reflexes spell does not add to Reaction so the mage will usually have less initiative dice to roll for initiative tests than the sammy unless he also sustains an Increase Attribute - Reaction spell (spendy if you do it with foci & just makes the mage a better target for astral attack).

I am more inclined to restrict, if not outrightly ban certain Mental Manipulations and have already banned Mind Probe (for both PCs & NPCs) which I find as being more unbalancing.
Garrowolf
Really? I had an entire character type based around mind probe and such spells. They were used in place of torturers. The group was hired to extract a scientist and bring him to one of these guys. He got the information that was needed and wiped his recent memory. Then they stunned him unconscious and put him back.
Mistwalker
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
For one, the increase reflexes spell does not add to Reaction so the mage will usually have less initiative dice to roll for initiative tests than the sammy unless he also sustains an Increase Attribute - Reaction spell (spendy if you do it with foci & just makes the mage a better target for astral attack).

While Increased Reflexes do not add to Reaction, it does add to Initiative, which give pretty much the same result.

Maxed spell vs Maxed Wired
Increased Reflexes +3 Initiative, +3 Initiative Passes
Wired Reflexes +3, +3 Reaction, +3 Initiative Passes

End result is the same.
The difference being that the sammy/adept always have the boosted effect while the mage has to cast the spell, sustain the spell, drop and recast it to go thru mana barriers (if they don't want to be noticed), or force their way thru and hope that their spell beats the barrier.

Konsaki
3 initiative Vs 3 reaction is a HUGE difference. Reaction could save your life.
Garrowolf
people keep on bringing up wards like they are common and they are not. This is no limitation. Combat doesn't usually last long enough (especially with this spell going) for this to be an issue.

Noticing a magic user is no limitation either. It's a huge advantage that they are not automatically noticed! Not the other way around. People will figure out who is the Sammie pretty quickly. Mages have a decent chance of going a few rounds before being noticed.

A karma can make you go first. Reaction is less important for that then it used to be.

The extra complex actions are the problem. They can cast three or four spells a turn. This totally breaks my disbelief in the setting. I can see the hyped up sammie shooting and punching in a adrenaline filled frenzy but I cant see the focus and concentration sped up to rapid fire cast spells.

Magic users can already create a team of their own on a whim. They can already kill somebody without their benefiting from their expensive armor. They can already control people's minds in various ways. They can already fly. The only limitation on them is that they are doing this relatively slowly. If that changes then there is no reason to play anything else.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
people keep on bringing up wards like they are common and they are not.

Huh?
From a cost-benefit perspective, wards should be extremely common. Every public building important enough to have a security camera should also have a ward near the entrance.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
A karma can make you go first. Reaction is less important for that then it used to be.


Reaction keeps you from getting shot.

Additionally, using the argument that you can spend karma (I'm thinking you meant Edge) works from 1-6 times. And that means 1. Another place your mage has to spend BP and 2. You don't get your Edge anywhere else.
QUOTE (Garrowolf)

The extra complex actions are the problem. They can cast three or four spells a turn. This totally breaks my disbelief in the setting. I can see the hyped up sammie shooting and punching in a adrenaline filled frenzy but I cant see the focus and concentration sped up to rapid fire cast spells.


Do you also ban magicians from taking Synaptic Boosters or Wired Reflexes?

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Magic users can already create a team of their own on a whim. They can already kill somebody without their benefiting from their expensive armor. They can already control people's minds in various ways. They can already fly. The only limitation on them is that they are doing this relatively slowly. If that changes then there is no reason to play anything else.


Here's where the argument comes out - you feel that mages are overpowered. That's a completely separate issue. And yet it sounds like you're playing a relatively mage-friendly game - no wards, no roaming watchers, no background count, high karma (if they're getting all those spells, all their stats, and everything else without issue), and relatively little counterspelling.
Konsaki
Yeah, considering there is no cost or limit to the ammount of wards a mage can throw up. It only costs time and the Force*50m^2 area thing.
Garrowolf
Actually I'm going by the books (for this part) because magic users are RARE. They are not common enough to do most of these things unless they are being paid LOTS of money by a megacorp.

All of these limits are based on thinking that magic users are just uncommon.

You can cast a spell to shield yourself, have a spirit protect you, or hide yourself. You can also cast increase reaction.

Wards stay connected to the caster and can be tracked back. It may be cheap but it's a huge flag for random targeting. None of my characters would ever do that except for their own house.

Actually yes I ban magic users from having any reaction enhancers because I am running a Role Playing Game and not a pen and paper video game. The point of the game is the story - not making as powerful a character as possible. Doing so will not go over well in my games. I'm trying to figure out what kind of games you're running that the power level is the primary factor. Having characters this powerful sounds too much like Rifts to me.

I prefer my game to be gritty and skill focused with mystery, not anime characters and superheroes.
hyzmarca
1% isn't that rare. Less than 0.4% of American's are lawyers, but you still don't have trouble finding one if you need one.
Jaid
furthermore, add in the fact that all it takes (iirc) is acess to the astral and a magic rating. spirits can do it. many dual-natured paracritters could do it. heck, an adept or ghoul in astral shallows could do it.

and once it's up, it can stay for quite some time.
Prime Mover
QUOTE (Wasabi)
Good points, but just for the record.... Bioware costs essence in SR4

Noticed in Franks posts somtimes takes me two or three reads to understand the definition of whats he's trying to get across. In the case in point Believe he was refering to spell, not the bioware when he says it costs no essence.
toturi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
1% isn't that rare. Less than 0.4% of American's are lawyers, but you still don't have trouble finding one if you need one.

Not only do you have no trouble finding one, they also have no trouble finding you.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Actually I'm going by the books (for this part) because magic users are RARE. They are not common enough to do most of these things unless they are being paid LOTS of money by a megacorp.

All of these limits are based on thinking that magic users are just uncommon.

You can cast a spell to shield yourself, have a spirit protect you, or hide yourself. You can also cast increase reaction.

Wards stay connected to the caster and can be tracked back. It may be cheap but it's a huge flag for random targeting. None of my characters would ever do that except for their own house.

Actually yes I ban magic users from having any reaction enhancers because I am running a Role Playing Game and not a pen and paper video game. The point of the game is the story - not making as powerful a character as possible. Doing so will not go over well in my games. I'm trying to figure out what kind of games you're running that the power level is the primary factor. Having characters this powerful sounds too much like Rifts to me.

I prefer my game to be gritty and skill focused with mystery, not anime characters and superheroes.

That would fit.

However, that's not the game SR is. I mean, it's quite clearly intended for mages to have extra IPs. And a slew of designers, playtesters and players since SR1 have felt that was good, and gritty, and not "Anime" or "superhero."

So don't take this the wrong way, but your arguments are really not going to hold any water in this regard, knowing that you fundamentally disagree with the game system.

It's sort of like me trying to argue that fighters in d20 are underpowered after I removed feats from all character classes - you're just coming from a very different viewpoint, and you can't mesh it with the general view.

Tomothy
I guess that means the general consensus is that Mages should use increased reflexes if they want extra IP?

So will I be at a serious disadvantage if'n I don't have extra IP? Just wondering, because I'm not going to get them from increased reflexes. It just doesn't fit in with the character I'm making. (Though occasional drug use would).
Mistwalker
QUOTE (Tomothy)
I guess that means the general consensus is that Mages should use increased reflexes if they want extra IP?

So will I be at a serious disadvantage if'n I don't have extra IP? Just wondering, because I'm not going to get them from increased reflexes. It just doesn't fit in with the character I'm making. (Though occasional drug use would).

Using Increased Reflexes is one methode.
Combat drugs is another
Bioware/Cyberware is another.


You may be at a slight disadvantage compared to the wired to the gills sammy, but not against most others. Same ball park for most mundanes.

Depends a bit on the gaming style of the GM, and what you fell your char is willing to do, or go for.

I have a player that has a complete mundane, no cyber or bioware, that is a sammy.
He is still alive, and contributes to the team.
Mistwalker
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Wards stay connected to the caster and can be tracked back. It may be cheap but it's a huge flag for random targeting. None of my characters would ever do that except for their own house.

Random targetting by whom?

Considering that if your job is to create wards, you will most likely be inside a ward, even during down time, at your house/apartment.

You may find out where they live thru the astral link? So what, you can do the same thing by looking them up in the book, following them from a job, hacking, etc...


I have corps place small wards around doors / airlock security like doors. It won't stop astral projection, but will definately cause problems for the runners who are trying to get thru the doors while under spells (invisibility, physical mask, increased reflexes, etc...).
lorechaser
Well, you need more than 1 IP. All the other serious combatants will have them, so even if you just want to cast a spell, then full dodge, you need it.

Drugs are fine, if you're willing to accept addiction.

Spells are good if you accept the issues with Foci or the -2 penalty (or summon a spirit).

Cyberware is good if you get synaptic Boosters 2 (1 essence), but costs you 42/57 bp (32 in nuyen, plus the 10/25 for the magic you lost).

Think of it like this:

We're going to duel. I will take 4 shots. Do you want to take 1, or 4, in that time?

If you can make the 1 really count, that's enough. Otherwise, no.
Tomothy
Assuming we're on the physical plane you're probably going to go first, but if I survive your first action I'll just control your thoughts and have you dance a merry jig (ideally). Unfortunately my mage is not really built to survive direct combat so the chances of her surviving one on one combat are slim to none. So maybe I could summon a spirit and have it use conceal on me?

Alternatively, I could just direct spirits to attack you from the Astral plane.
Glyph
Extra IPs are vital for a combat-oriented character. If your mage is less combat-oriented (recon, buff spells, healing, etc.), then it is less important for her. In that case, Improved Invisibility would be a better spell for you than Increased Reflexes.

Keep in mind that spirits, while powerful and versatile, need to materialize to affect someone on the physical plane. They are still good combattants, though, and one alternative to boosting your own IPs is to rely on spirits for combat more.
Seyluun
1% of the population have a shred of magical power. 10% of this population is actually talented/trained enough to be considered for employment as "mage" (or adept). And even less are at shadowrunner/researcher level...
As for the best way to get IP as a mage it's hard to beat Increase reflex with a force 4 sustaining focus. Sure it's not broken like in SR3 (when you could do the same for the ridiculous cost of 2 karma and 10000Y) but it's still good, costing you 9 karma (4 for the focus, 5 for the spell) and 40.000Y, unless you're willing to make a run to steal the focus. The main drawback is that you have to recast the spell each time you cross a ward, so you have to be good enough to make 4 hits in a few tries and to soak the drain on an average roll. Don't worry about the focus being attacked, because if they can destroy the focus, chances are they'll just try to kill you instead. Be wary of the random "capture" plot twist though (extended detect ennemies is your friend here)
And i agree with what was said earlier, you are going to need the extra IPs. When the sh*** hit the fan, the tough boys aren't going to stop because you're a "recon mage" (and given how cheap the spells are, chances are you can cast a quite wide selection of spells anyway).
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
1% isn't that rare. Less than 0.4% of American's are lawyers, but you still don't have trouble finding one if you need one.

Thank you.
1% is NOT rare. It is not remotely rare. Granted, many of this 1% are weak, but they all have a magic rating of at least 1, and most of them have astral perception. That means the majority of this 1% is capable of creating Force 1 wards. This requires no skill, so they need no special training, it's just magic+willpower, so everyone with astral perception can do it instinctively. 1% can make an excellent living creating low-force wards with no training, no special equipment, and very little personal risk.
A force 1 ward may not stop you and your sustained spell, but it does trigger the alarms and keep any casual astral passers-by at bay. As an analogy, you could easily kick down most of the doors you come across, but that doesn't mean you do it, 'cause you'd get in trouble.

p.s. 1% is not rare.
Konsaki
1% are awakened... how many of that 1% are full mages?
lorechaser
Here's a comparison for the scarity of 1%:

In 2005, 1% of the population of the US was Native American or Alaskan Native. 1% listed their religions as Jewish, and 1% as Muslim. 1% of the population cannot read or write.
Moon-Hawk
1% of people are awakened. A subway car holds, say, 30 people. There is approximately a 26% that any given subway car has a magician in it.
Another example. From a given busy metropolitan intersection, there are, say, 200 people standing near enough to see you. (a very conservative estimate, I think) You get naked and do a dance. There is an 87% chance that there is an awakened person who sees you.
Konsaki
I see people confuse 'Awakened' with Magician...

Awakened = has a magic ability or is magical in some way

Awakened people = Magicians, Dual-natured people, adepts, mystic adepts, people with astral sight, people with 'Spell Knack'(cant remember the correct wording), aspected magicians and magical creatures (IE Shapeshifters)

Now, does anyone have broken down numbers as to how many of the 1% awakened population are what?
Mal-2
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Now, does anyone have broken down numbers as to how many of the 1% awakened population are what?

As far as I know, no such numbers have ever been published. There's been lots of numbers made up and debated over the years though.

My general feeling is that it's about 40% magicians, 40% Adepts, and 20% weird stuff (like mystic adepts, shapeshifters, and aspected magicians). Of those magicians and adepts, I assume they average a 2 or 3 Magic, the same as with other attributes. Other people think that 99% of the awakened population have the equivalent of a 'Spell Knack' and are barely Awakened at all.

Your mileage may vary. Always talk to your GM about assumptions about the world that aren't written into source material. This advice may not survive a quantum singularity. Never taunt the happy fun ball.
tisoz
QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows @ page 28)
Only 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World can use magic.  A fraction of that percentage are aspected magicians, never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with their gift.

QUOTE (Street Magic @ page 22)
Less than one percent of the Sixth World's populace even has the potential to use magic.  Of that one percent, only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use it effectively; the rest either go mad trying or spend their entire lives ignorant of the power at their fingertips.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows @ page 28)
Only 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World can use magic.  A fraction of that percentage are aspected magicians, never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with their gift.

Okay, but of that fraction, aspect magicians and those who never get training can both make wards. Aspected magicians have astral perception. Making wards is an attribute+magic test and requires no skill, no training.
So we're only looking at the people who are bat-shit insane (who can still make wards, but not in a productive way), and the adepts and mystic adepts who haven't bought the power.
Everyone else, full mage, aspected, etc. has astral perception. True, there's the spell knack people, but it was my understanding that those represent a very small percentage of even the awakened, since they're not even in the main book.
hyzmarca
To further shed light on what 1% really means, there are 30,000 awakened individuals in Seattle if it conforms to the statistical norm.
30,000 really is a lot of Awakened people, even if only a few of them have any real power.
lorechaser
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
To further shed light on what 1% really means, there are 30,000 awakened individuals in Seattle if it conforms to the statistical norm.
30,000 really is a lot of Awakened people, even if only a few of them have any real power.

So if 40% have real power, that's 12,000 people.

Let's say there are 4 categories of mages: Runners, Academics, Independents, Corp Mages. Let's call it 25% each.

So 3,000 corporate mages in a city. That's far and away enough to supply what you need. And of the 3,000 independents, a portion of them will likely do freelance wardings. I'd expect that to be the bread and butter service - sorta like installing Vista on a PC - it's quick, it's easy, you charge a fair amount for it, and do a dozen a day.
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